Hi again,
Thanks to everyone who responded to my tuning-based threads, but I think I might have to get it running again first! :Hammer Can anyone help?
Story is:
-Car was running fine
-suffered from \'flooding\' for first time a couple of weeks ago - may be unrelated
(parked facing up an incline at Brands hatch, left for a couple of hours, wouldn\'t start, turned car around and removed fuel pump fuse, cranked it over, re-fitted fuse and got it going again)
-In the last week or so I could smell petrol whilst driving it
(it\'s an EGi with Racing Beat exhaust manifold and system, with blanking plates for air pump/EGR removal, etc)
-petrol consumption getting worse -
(£10 unleaded = approx. 30 miles @ sensible driving with occasional squirt and redline at least once a journey (2x15mile journeys if that makes sense?))
-I NEVER do this, but a mate wanted to hear it, so I started it, rev\'d it a couple of times (to 4k maximum), to the accompanyment of a squeeking belt, turned it off
-Went to start it 48 hours later. It has power, turns over and I\'m pretty sure I can hear the starter motor working but it won\'t fire up.
I figured it\'s probably not getting any fuel?
I just removed the fuel line attached to the filter (the \'left\' one) - I was going to check the fuel pump, but it literally pumped fuel out as soon as I had disconnected it so I don\'t think it\'s fuel??
Which means it might be ignition?
I\'m going to remove the plugs and clean them up, but they can\'t still be \'wet\' can they? I tried the fuel pump fuse trick again but it hasn\'t worked.
I\'m going to remove the plugs tomorrow and check them. I just wanted to check with you rotary experts there isn\'t anything obvious I\'m overlooking?
Cheers,
Dan
ps - how do you compression-test a rotary?.. :2Confused
pps - battery is pracitcally new, NGK R plugs the same - I haven\'t checked the fuel filter yet
Sure you haven\'t flooded the engine ??
Shaun
Yep. It\'s had a few days so it should vapourise surely?
Either way, I\'ve done the fuse trick a couple of times and no joy.
Maybe cleaning the plugs up tomorrow will work?
It\'s starting to sound like either poor compression or leaking injectors. How many miles has the block done?
id change the plugs n go from there, mine ran perfect the other day, then wouldnt start so cleaned all the plugs n still no go, replaced um and firsts turn fired up, it even sorted the lumpy idle.. for some reason tho i had 11`s all round so they muck up really quick, now iv got 9`s aint had no problems
defo go for a set of new plugs, been and done this so many times and even if the plugs look ok.......replace them with 9\'s.
Cheers guys. I removed the plugs today and cleaned them up with a bit of wire wool (not ideal I know), but it didn\'t work - for 1k-mile old plugs they were VERY dark and still a bit wet.
Surely it would have fired (even if it didn\'t run very well) on cleaned plugs? edit - just re-read inters post - I\'ll try new plugs then :)
When you say fit 9\'s, are you talking about changing to a colder grade plug?
I currently have NGK BR10ET
Cheers again for your help chaps
With NGK a 9 is HOTTER than a 10. I think 10 is too cold for an EGI
Try disconnecting fuel pump power near the left rear strut, and see if it will start.
say no more : http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30007#Q2
*** sorry martiny ... i seem to have added that to your post ??? ***
if its an egi im sure it should be 7\'s and 9\'s ?
1k on plugs isnt much but if its not being run, just started then they`ll die quickly, plus theres cars are well known fer killing plugs lol.. o the joy of performance cars.. maybe worth buying an ignition amplifyer if u see once pop up cheap..
Check the plugs and once you got it running again, get it to your nearest rotary specialist for a compression test to get a better idea of the state of the engine.
totally agree and i do remember when i had virtually new plugs in my TII and i replaced everything that i could to do with either fuel or ignition and in the end i got so %u%ed off with it i simply started from scratch.......the first was a set of brand new plugs and it fired first time. Even newish plugs can fail. Just dont overlook the basics first before you start spending money without a good fault diagnostics session.
Grinder you are right about 7\'s and 9\'s but the 7\'s are so expensive and hard to get hold off 9\'s will be just as good and even better if its been uprated in any way.
wow, cheers guys!
Just re-read the whole thread, and to answer a coupld of quesitons:
EGi
94k miles on original engine.
Only mod is Racing Beat exhaust (including manifold)
removed air pump, etc -
supplied and fitted (and serviced regularly) by Rotechniks
had \'10s\' in it when I bought it.
This morning I removed the plugs, disconnected coils and turned the engine over to try and get the mist of fuel/oil out of the combustion chambers. Gave each plug a proper clean and bruned off any excess with a lighter. Can\'t replace them until I get paid Friday you see.
The leads going from the coils to the dizzy were wet at the coil end? They had what seemed like oil in them and there was some oil residue in the top of the coils - not much, and I cleaned it up, but??
One other thing I noticed is what looked like a plug for a fuel injector possibly (in a line of four, attached to/below inlet manifold, next to oil dipstick) - the faded brown/orange coloured one closest to the bulkhead was still connected, but the whole terminal was loose, so I sorted that.
Plugged everything back in - didn\'t start. Got the hump with myself for not doing the fuel pump fuse trick first. So removed that, nearly flattened the battery flogging it. Re-fitted fuse. It almost started!
Tried it again and this time tried to floor the throttle in a vain hope it might fire totally. Nope. And the accelerator pedal seemed to \'drop\' a bit, and now seems lower and doesn\'t came back up with much force if that makes sense? I tightened the screw on the throttle cable which didn\'t seem to help. I also noticed there is some kind of bracket I couldn\'t get to behind the inlet manifold, close to the builkead which hardly moves regardless of how much the throttle cable moves??
Anyway, I tried the fuel pump fuse another couple of times. Once the car started for half a second I\'m sure.
Sooooo..
Considering the engine is completely standard (to my knowledge) - do you think I should go for the plugs recommended in the manual over 10s? Think I\'m going to try and upgrade the ignition system for sure, I\'d heard rotaries give the ignition system a bashing but I didn\'t realise how much! Anyone have any ideas/tips for cost-effective upgrades?
Thanks again :yes
LOL!!! :rollin
I was just scan-reading my post to check it made sense. When I took the plugs out, disconnected the leads to make sure they didn\'t spark, etc. I can\'t be sure I didn\'t remove the fuel pump fuse!?! :Hammer
So I did all that and presumably it was still pumping fuel in... I worry about myself sometimes.. :2Rolleyes :rollin
I\'d go with a set of standard plugs and get it running again before throwing any money at the car. If you can\'t get it running with new standard plugs while cranking, you may want to tow start it.
At the moment you\'re not sure what the problem is so throwing money at random components will mainly increase turnover at parts suppliers.
Agreed.
I didn\'t think about it until my brother just mentioned it, but it\'s getting colder too isn\'t it? So 7s and 9s might be better over winter anyway. I\'ve used Iridium plugs in my turbo car with good results, but it might actually run better on standard plugs considering it\'s only got an exhaust on it after all?
Use standard plugs - AFAIR some people reported problems with Iridium plugs, plus you\'d chuck at lot of money at plugs for an engine that doesn\'t necessarily run very well anyway.
I\'d splash out for regular plugs and keep the wallet shut otherwise.
just keep your spending to a minimum and put stock plugs in it
if that doesnt work - then tow start it - that should work every time :D
this is why a fuel cut switch can be a good idea
and thinking about you having 10\'s - i have a TII and that has 9\'s in it
wouldnt start on the 10\'s that it came with regardless of how many times i cleaned them - dropped some 9\'s in and it ran like a dream :D
best idea now is
1 - pull the EGI fuse
2 - remove all the plugs
3 - crank a few times to clear off the excess petrol
4 - put 9\'s in
5 - put EGI fuse back in
6 - start the car - dont touch anything though - just crank it
7 - crank in short bursts ( max of 10 secs )
8 - if that doesnt work
9 - pull the plugs and check to see if they are really wet
10 - retry all of the above again
11 - could be worth checking the leads - so try a plug in each lead and rest it against the bonnet stay - get someone to crank it and make sure that they are at least sparking
12 - if everything looks like it should work - tow start the thing :D
I\'ve not found 7\'s to be that much more than 9\'s TBH... And 7\'s and 9\'s made my car run so much better and start on the button every time, hot cold, just moved or not. Unless the engine is modded why change what the spec is from Mazda?
Check on here: //www.sparkplugs.co.uk
They have BUR7EQP for £8.99 per plug and BUR9EQP for £8.37 per plug... Didn\'t think that was a bad price???
Isn\'t there a trick with putting a little drop of oil in through the spark plug hole to try and improve the compression to try and give it a chance to start.
New plugs will help alot and shouldn\'t cost too much.
Are you seeing a spark on both of the plugs ?? I ran my 12a on petrol with only the trailing plug firing. Not sure for how long either. Worked on the 13b with the gas too until it went to be tuned !
Shaun
HAHAHA!!!!! How do I change my user name to "Muppet" ?.. :rollin
I\'ve got it going! Wahey!
Basically, I sat down tonight for my usual internet-based FC3S \'research\' - logged onto //www.rx7.com and flicked through the articles. Turns out I was doing the fuse thingy wrong!
Two things:
1) I was removing the second-in fuse (EGi injectors or something similar), NOT the end one!
2) I wasn\'t planting the throttle when I turned it over with the fuse removed.
Sooo... after several attempts it started twice with the fuse out (died after a second or two obviously), and I eventually got it started with the fuse back in. It ran REALLY lumpy so I took it out for a gentle drive on some long straights, trying to warm it up gently. Once it was up to temp I redlined it a couple of times and hey presto - it\'s running better than ever! :3gears-rh
Weird thing is, I removed the second-in (blue) fuse when it wouldn\'t start at Brands and it worked that day. Am I right in thinking the blue is for the injectors? If so, by removing that I\'ve been filling the fuel lines with loads of petrol as the pump\'s still be working, the injectors just haven\'t been firing any of it in? Hence when I removed the fuel line it literally squirted water out under pressure. Probably can\'t have been great for the pump. With the right fuse pulled, the injectors fired in all of the petrol remaining in the lines, but no more as the pump wasn\'t working. Hence with the fuse back in, it initially ignites what\'s already in the combustion chambers. Phew!
Thanks to everyone for your help on here.
:cheers
I might look into going \'back\' to 7s and 9s anyway, but jeez I\'d forgotten how much fun it is to drive!! I was using my AW11 MR2 as a daily driver directly before this and people rave "it is/was the best handling car", but I genuinely think the FC is the best handling car I\'ve ever owned.
For turning a simple problem into a big one, feel free to call me a tw@t here: VVV
Ok, well done on getting it going again.
To prevent it flooding, when you switch off -
hold revs at 2k,
floor it at the same time you turn the key off.
This will pump air through as it winds down to stop, and hopefully leave no fuel on the plugs.
Really? I would have thought that would flood it?
Makes sense though I guess - like you say fuel will stop going in, but the rotors will still spin round as it winds down, pushing unburnt fuel straight into the exhaust.
Bit noisy though!! :rollin
I\'m still getting used to the \'quirks\' of the rotary engine, but I\'m very impressed by it\'s smoothness and how easy it is to work on ;)
I\'m definitely going to look into either:
VEMS, ITBs and a streetport
or
VEMS, Turbo, streetport/\'half bridge\'
I\'m loving the NA noise at the moment though