Cylinder Capacity?
Hi didn’t know this before until I went to finalise my insurance today, a 1993 FD3S Type R import has 2354cc.
Problem is when I went to insure the car today I said it should be around (2x 650 as it says in the export certificate and then approximately multiply that by 2 for the rotary engine) which give you around 2600cc (which apparently is an auto on the 93 models) I was asked to check the V5 certificate so I did and it said 2600cc when it should have said 2354cc.
This means I can’t get the feckin car insured until I get the V5 certificate corrected, which involves getting a Certificate of Conformity from Mazda from Japan, Mazda UK, Europe and Ireland cant do anything for me I seriously cant understand why.
Then I need to send the V5 certificate with the proof off to England to make the amendments, then I need to get it registered in the North (as the system is different apparently) before I can get insurance.
Which has an estimated time line of 12 weeks, 12 feckin weeks.
Can anyone think of a way to speed up the process.
jsut insure it buy the logbook. some logbooks state 1.3, mine states 2.6 (uk model) however they are all teh same.
IIRC the capacity is 2600, there is a mistake on the insurers database thingy that means the engine size comes up as 2.4. A lot of insurers use the same database hence they will all say the same thing. Basicly you are right and they are wrong. best bet would be to speak to insurers who know their stuff, otherwise I could see it as a get out clause if the worst happens! I used A-plan and cant fault them, but other insurers and brokers are available....
i think if it comes up as 2354 they\'re trying to insure it as a cab.
Neither - the 2354 capacity sounds very much like a 12A.
FCs and FDs both have 13Bs, which are commonly registered either as 2.6 or 1.3l.
and they\'re called 13b for a reason, rip off britain is the only place on earth classing it as a 2.6!! Don\'t you just love britain?
Actually I\'m pretty sure you\'re wrong about that, in Germany they did switch rotaries from weight-based taxation to displacement-based taxation a while back and I\'m pretty sure they\'re using the same formula.
And if you\'re thinking that we\'re being ripped off in the UK car tax wise, I invite you tax a first gen in Germany :)
It should be 2600. Yes the swept volume is only 1300 but on a rotary we get a power stroke every revolution per combustion area. Where as a boinger only every second revolution hence why the figures are doubled up.
Kevin
would that be the same for 2 strokes? do they get taxed in the same manner?
actually that is a bit of a rhetorical question, as i am pretty sure that the last 2 strokes must be tax exempt by now?
Funnily enough i have just had an arguement with the DVLA with regards to the displacement of the 13B. Every imported RX7 i\'ve registered has always had no problem going through as a 1300. Now the one I decide to keep gets caught out as a 2600....
Now then they messed up the chasis number on the log book aswell so I thought I might aswell have a go at them about the engine size too; this is the reply I recieved in a letter today:
Quote from: dvlaDVLA has recently sought advice on vehicles powered by rotary engines and how the engine capacity should be recorded for licencing purposes. Based on this advice, the correct engine capacity for your vehicle is, in fact, 2616cc. This is calculated from the sum of the swept volumes of each of the rotors in the engine, multiplied by 2. In this case 2 rotors each of 654cc = 654cc x 2 x 2 = 2616cc. This is defined in the Automotive Exhaust Emissions Directive. It is our view that displacement is intended to mean the same as swept volume. It is not the same as cylinder capacity. If you require further information with regards to this matter, I would suggest that you contact Mazda direct, who should then be able to confirm the information that I have supplied in this letter.
To be honest, that should be translated as you have a powerful car that gets away with cheap tax because of a loop hole in the law so this is the only way we can think of to screw you for some more money.
No they aren\'t, high-performance two strokes were made well into the eighties and you still find them in some small-capacity scooters. Tax exemption stops on 1/1/1973...
And no, they\'re taxed by the same displacement rules as four-stroke engines. But I\'m sure the government won\'t mind to change that, with all the pollution and stuff that two stroke engines emit.
the ones that came to mind were the saabs, I was thinking of cars. I forgot about motorcycles!
Well yes, I think SAAB switched to fourstrokes in the late 60s. From the seventies and eighties I think you only got weird East German stuff like Trabants and Wartburgs that still used two strokes.
Mine is lucky enough to be a 1300cc on the V5 - I\'d call greenlight as they quoted me very happy the other day and they had no confusion over the details of the car. EVERY other one i tried got it all wrong which didnt give me much confidence as if for some reason something happened would they pull a fast one and say the info is not right etc etc
All the 2nd gens were classed as 2354cc on the V5 :wave
Yes the multiplication factor for 1st and 2nd gens was 1.8.
My Series 2 (1st gen) had the 12A engine = 573 x 2 = 1146 x 1.8 = 2063 "cc" on the V5
My Series 5 (2nd gen) has the 13B engine = 654 x 2 = 1308 x 1.8 = 2354 "cc" on the V5
This never had anything to do with swept volume, displacement or cubic capacity but was simply a way of comparing the rotary with its equivalent piston engine. Any talk of two rotors means 2x the displacement or similar is just crap - how do they get 1.8x then?!
It seems the multiplcation factor changed with the 3rd gen to 2.0.
DVLA are just taking the piff but then it\'s their game and their ball so what can we do? :(
Quote from: no_boingersDVLA are just taking the piff but then it\'s their game and their ball so what can we do? :(
Stop paying road tax. :Santa From what I can see very little of our money goes into servicing the roads anyway! :Hammer
yep, the FD is indeed 2616cc, my logbook says 1300cc though, so I qualify for the cheap tax! :D
Most insurers will come up with the 2354c figure which is for the 12A block IIRC. When I got insured through Sky, the guy knew exactly what he was talking about and explained because there are so many variations of the Rex and engines, many insurers don\'t bother keeping specific details. Although my policy states engine size as 2354cc, in the \'notes\' section it has been amended - sent me a letter confirming this also.
13b = 2x 654cc chambers.
throughput = 2616cc (1308x2)
insurance often classifies as 2354cc, this was the magic number assigned for motorsport classification as the rotary has more losses through heat than a piston engine.
Some people call it a 2.6, some a 1.3and some a 2.3, they are all right in some ways and wrong in others, unfrotunately you just have to go with what your given.
You can change it on the logbook though to a 1.3 for cheap tax.
Well Mazda sell it as 654cc x 2 (for FD & RX-8 anyway) They advertise that in the brochures so maybe the government sues them for this next too! :mad:
I can see no reason why they should then times by 2 - yes I know you can work out this and that and we get more power because of - but its a different engine - it aint got pistons so dont come up with some crazy formula to bum us! (on about the dvla not you guys! :) )
Anyway, if thats how its going to be (notice how the DVLA response at the top does not even slightly go into why it doubles the figure) then I wonder what they do about the new 2010 RX-7
800cc x 2 = 1600 x 2 - 3200
They will probably double it again claiming that turbochargers increase the CC! :Thumbsup!
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh :o
Anyway FD is either 2616 or 1308 and FC is 2354 or 1308!
At the end of the day it goes like a 2.6 turbo so in terms of emissions etc it\'s kinda fair do\'s IMHO.
But then it\'s the weird thing that they don\'t count turbo\'s or SC\'s as a bigger displaement like motorsport does when effectly that\'s all it is... Forcing the same air that a 4l would drink into a 2l and it\'s still 2l *shrug*
thanks guys, I\'ve got it insured as a 2616 even though on the log book it says 2600 waiting from a response from mazdas thechnical department so whe I get a response from them i\'ll post it up.
Also sent an FOI request into DVLA.
Did anything ever come of this?
Just got the exact same letter so it must a standard response...
Must just be standard issue bullsh1t letter that they send out. lol
I seriously doubt we\'ll get anywhere trying to argue the toss with them anymore, i\'ve tried and got no where. Although I do have a few FD\'s due in at the end of the month so of course im still going to try my luck and send them off as 1300cc! :D
Yeah, it\'s alwasy worth a go but they seem to be right on the case with it now :/
Shame, but fair enough.
All new 13b engines have to be registered as 2616cc thats comming from Mazda, and this includes all imports regardless of when they were manufactured.
Problem is this isn\'t on the AIBs insurance database and it can only be put on there by an insurance company, I asked mine to do this but as yet I havn\'t heard anything there is a 2616cc auto on the list but no manual at this stage. Hopefully my insurance company is doing something about this sent them paperwork from the DVLA, Mazda and DVLNI got my V5 changed to a 2616cc as instructed by mazda.
If anyone else that has there car registered as a 2616cc engine could ask their insurance company to get the car put onto the AIB insurance register too that would help the process out.
Quote from: elford_tim;443465Actually I\'m pretty sure you\'re wrong about that, in Germany they did switch rotaries from weight-based taxation to displacement-based taxation a while back and I\'m pretty sure they\'re using the same formula.
And if you\'re thinking that we\'re being ripped off in the UK car tax wise, I invite you tax a first gen in Germany :)
But then factor in the fact that the roads here are good, and that insurance doesn\'t count speeding offences, it\'s all swings and roundabouts.