Has anyone got before and after dynos graphs? Just wondering what the difference in low down response/power is
Thanks :Thumbsup!
That would be good to see - running sequential at the moment on mine had a passing thought of trying carl\'s reversible set up
Maybe one of the lovely tuners on here will be up for doing a back to back test :D
I was intending to do this last year but then my engine went...:eek
Have a look at some of the dyno sheets in the dyno\'s section for graphs of non seq
Im sure Carl would be up for it
HTH
Rixio :Thumbs-up
:Thumbsup! Rixio , here you are. just to say hi , sorry for thread hi jack , are you stalking me or is it just coincidence your dad works across road from place i was visiting , i thought i had run over some thing or upset someone when he walked over with his phone:confused: but it was only you keeping tabs on me !
nice to talk to you again and i will let you know out come of engine rebuild soon :WaveBye
Did this some 4 years ago made no significant difference apart from getting all the boost in one go all be it sometime later than running seq.
Made something like 318 seq.@7800 on 1 bar normal boost pattern full boost at 3500 and at 5000 and non seq, 315 @ 7800 on 1 bar full boost at 5000
Quote from: John YorkeDid this some 4 years ago made no significant difference apart from getting all the boost in one go all be it sometime later than running seq.
Made something like 318 seq.@7800 on 1 bar normal boost pattern full boost at 3500 and at 5000 and non seq, 315 @ 7800 on 1 bar full boost at 5000
Cheers - so not worth it
have you got the dyno sheets jon? would just be interesting to see a back to back tests.
matt
i guess going non seq doesnt really give you any more power as such just delivers the power in a different way, depends wot you prefer, smoother power and more low down or a big kick and all the power higher in the rev range
Here is a stock ported and injected engine on non sequential dyno chart.
I personally much prefer the non sequential route on an FD as the driving experience is much more predicatable and the car much more chuckable.
As you can see,the car is not dead at lower rpm and the power build up/hp curve is pretty smooth.
Regards
Carl
Carl cant complain about that for smooth graph.
What i am aiming for is better drag strip times (best 13.6 not brilliant but ET 110mph so top ends not bad)but also needs to be useable around town.Currently stock twins sequential,no porting,twin apexi intakes & power fc with commander,,boost controller,greddy SMIC,twin 550 injectors mounted onto plenum,walbro 255 pump -305RWHP .Also got aquamist HFS5 & coolingmist shurflow tank to get fitted.
What do you reckon benefits would be going NON ? - was mapped by Pip so reckon its safely done going by reputation.
That graph is pretty much as I said, makes the power without a great deal under 5k, yes more predictable off boost into a corner, no 2nd turbo to kick you mid bend, but it deffo felt a slower build and then a big rush - somewhat like a poorly mated single to an unported engine
Was tuning a twin turbo fd yesterday running normal sequential setup, and I have come to the conclusion that I would not want a twin turbo fd to perform any other way. I love the feel of the 2nd turbo kicking. As for bends and an unpredicatble 2nd turbo, I think the driver is what is unpredictable, not really the turbo. The only time I have lost it in an fd is when I\'ve been driving like an idiot, of which I can\'t really blame the turbo. It\'s nice putting your foot down and feeling the turbo doing it\'s job knowing that at any given moment you got the 2nd one to kick in. People are different and like different things, but for me I cannot see why one would change the stock fd sequential setup, I think it\'s great.
Brian
Here is a sequential setup with dyno graph.
Regards
Carl
Wow thanks guys, to be honest from what I\'ve on this thread non-seq only seems worth it if you\'re having lots of problems with the solenoids, vaccuum hosing etc! When I get my RX its going to stay sequential, maybe with a pair of uprated turbos :D
peterwolds - i think your best bet if you are sticking with the twins to get better drag racing times is to look at other things instead of changing the turbo setup, there are lots of things you can look at to improve straight line performance.
heres a few things to look at:
weight
wheels and tyres
suspension
differential
clutch and flywheel
lots of other things aswell, thats just the basics
We have quite alot of customers who are running non sequential and would not go back to sequential,but equally we have those who prefer the original Mazda setup,but out of all the conversions we have done only two have gone back to sequential.
Regards
Carl
Generally we have had quite alot of customers running in the 12\'s both ways,the important thing is good tuning to suit each setup and of course all components being in good order.
Regards
Carl
Quote from: bnaellisWas tuning a twin turbo fd yesterday running normal sequential setup, and I have come to the conclusion that I would not want a twin turbo fd to perform any other way. I love the feel of the 2nd turbo kicking. As for bends and an unpredicatble 2nd turbo, I think the driver is what is unpredictable, not really the turbo. The only time I have lost it in an fd is when I\'ve been driving like an idiot, of which I can\'t really blame the turbo. It\'s nice putting your foot down and feeling the turbo doing it\'s job knowing that at any given moment you got the 2nd one to kick in. People are different and like different things, but for me I cannot see why one would change the stock fd sequential setup, I think it\'s great.
Brian
Totaly agree Brian, my point about the 2nd turbo comes from other people complaining it catches them out, I much prefurred seq.
I think experience with the 2nd turbo kick soon teaches you where and when it\'s safe to plant the right foot.
I personally think the first turbo kick can be just as dangerous having got an unexpected sideways moment in third gear at fairly low speed on a damp roundabout!
I have briefly considered the non-sequential route but I\'m sure I would miss the constant power band through the revs.
I recently took an Impreza nut out in the FD. He\'d never been in one before and was amazed at the length of boost. He said he kept expecting me to change gear but I kept it planted for much longer than he is used to! AND I didn\'t even hit the beeper!
Gotta love it :D
I believe SDMINUS with the fastest drag time in UK on Sequential twins of 12.0, so it all depends what u prefer in power delivery
Quote from: sweetiewellsheres a few things to look at:
weight
wheels and tyres
suspension
differential
clutch and flywheel
Cheers Sweetiewells
Been dieting this year lost half a stone so weight part on its way :rollin - only have a 1/4 tank of fuel in when running to keep weight down,next time will take spare wheel out as well.
got tein superstreets set softer now & dont get the loads of skipping at start
yes sure tyres want changing next got bridgestone so3\'s on
not sure about clutch,dif,flywheel changing as its currently very driveable in town
Quote from: bnaellisWas tuning a twin turbo fd yesterday running normal sequential setup, and I have come to the conclusion that I would not want a twin turbo fd to perform any other way. I love the feel of the 2nd turbo kicking. As for bends and an unpredicatble 2nd turbo, I think the driver is what is unpredictable, not really the turbo. The only time I have lost it in an fd is when I\'ve been driving like an idiot, of which I can\'t really blame the turbo. It\'s nice putting your foot down and feeling the turbo doing it\'s job knowing that at any given moment you got the 2nd one to kick in. People are different and like different things, but for me I cannot see why one would change the stock fd sequential setup, I think it\'s great.
Brian
My sentiments exatcly, its all down to the driver...the way i see it is...In principle its like driving a single turbo...i for one will not be going non seq simply because i cant see any benefits...specially after looking at those dyno printouts...
Rixio:cheers
Quote from: BlitzBoyI believe SDMINUS with the fastest drag time in UK on Sequential twins of 12.0, so it all depends what u prefer in power delivery
Was Scott running his twins in seq? I would have thought for the strip non seq would be favourable?
on the strip it wouldnt matter as once you are moving you dont drop below 4.5k rpm and so both turbos are working any way.
the advantage rixio is there is soo much less to go wrong and if there is a problem there isnt 500 yards of vacume pipe to trace through to find it.
matt
Quote from: bnaellisWas tuning a twin turbo fd yesterday running normal sequential setup, and I have come to the conclusion that I would not want a twin turbo fd to perform any other way. I love the feel of the 2nd turbo kicking. As for bends and an unpredicatble 2nd turbo, I think the driver is what is unpredictable, not really the turbo. The only time I have lost it in an fd is when I\'ve been driving like an idiot, of which I can\'t really blame the turbo. It\'s nice putting your foot down and feeling the turbo doing it\'s job knowing that at any given moment you got the 2nd one to kick in. People are different and like different things, but for me I cannot see why one would change the stock fd sequential setup, I think it\'s great.
Brian
I couldnt agree more, I have high flow sequential twins with 300 bhp at the wheels at 0.9 bar and i love it. I have had very large singles and medium singles and twins are definately best imho. The GT35/40 was great also, i had 100 more hp at 4000 rpm than the T51 boys who were running nearly 500 rwhp and it was quicker. Its all about delivery not the final figure on the graph.
Agree with Brian and Tony.
If you pass through 4.5k from below 3k, it probably means you were in the wrong gear for that corner anyway!
Quote from: antnicukIts all about delivery not the final figure on the graph.
couldnt agree more not just for twins but for all turbo\'s, it is something i keep telling people but i find it mostley falls on def ears.
matt
Quote from: arroukcouldnt agree more not just for twins but for all turbo\'s, it is something i keep telling people but i find it mostley falls on def ears.
matt
No...no...& no we are not going non seq:spank
Quote from: RixioWas Scott running his twins in seq? I would have thought for the strip non seq would be favourable?
yep he was running seq, as everyone says its about drivability in the end
i like the seq set up, the 2nd kick gives the engine a little bit of a fun feature and comming from the world of vtec it keeps a smile on my face
If the non-sequential set-up comes on boost at the same time as the second turbo would on a sequential set-up, then you have basically lost the first turbo low down.
If both turbos come on boost where the first turbo would have, then your fuel economy would go through the floor.
I\'m not convinced yet that non-sequential is worthwhile unless you cannot fix a rats nest problem...and that is just a cop out! (yes, mine has not broken yet!)
To add my 2p\'s worth, i thought i was running non seq for 2 yrs, only to find out that i have solenoid probs! Got these changed and now i\'m on full seq and i love it! Why you would want to loose low down power and gain nothing in high end power confuses me??? My mate said the other day that my car now feels slower as the boost from 4500 is not a severe, but in reality it is much quicker as i am not waiting for 4500 to get any boost, i now get boost from 2000 to 4500 and that makes the car much quicker to me. Once you get over 4500, as said before, it makes no difference as both are on together.
Quote from: andysmeethen your fuel economy would go through the floor.
hahaha that comment has made me laugh
Quote from: andysmeeIf the non-sequential set-up comes on boost at the same time as the second turbo would on a sequential set-up, then you have basically lost the first turbo low down.
If both turbos come on boost where the first turbo would have, then your fuel economy would go through the floor.
I\'m not convinced yet that non-sequential is worthwhile unless you cannot fix a rats nest problem...and that is just a cop out! (yes, mine has not broken yet!)
Agreed, infact I would go as far as to say that atleast 95% of people who have gone non sequential was because they had boost issues. Would make more sense to me to get the boost issue sorted rather than resorting to a less than optimal turbo setup.
Brian
I would like to say that I think both way\'s are fine for twins and it is personal preference.When we offer the conversion for people to try,we offer a free reversal if they don\'t like it and only two people out of around 30 conversions have reversed it.We offer that free reversal so that people can try it as we beleive that most people really like it.
When we have done the conversions for the customers it has not been for issues with the turbo\'s operation,but purely because the customer has preffered non sequential.
I notice quite alot of people that have said they don\'t like nonsequential have big singles in their own personal cars that spool up later than nonsequential setups on twins,so they can\'t dislike it all that much.
Also if properly tuned nonsequental is very drivable,it is not as if the engine is making no power low down the rpm,and it does come on boost earlier than the second turbo does in sequential mode.You can see that the engine is still making power low down in the dyno graph albeit slightly less than the stock setup,but the power curve is much more linear.
Regards
Carl
Quote from: CarlI would like to say that I think both way\'s are fine for twins and it is personal preference.When we offer the conversion for people to try,we offer a free reversal if they don\'t like it and only two people out of around 30 conversions have reversed it.We offer that free reversal so that people can try it as we beleive that most people really like it.
When we have done the conversions for the customers it has not been for issues with the turbo\'s operation,but purely because the customer has preffered non sequential.
I notice quite alot of people that have said they don\'t like nonsequential have big singles in their own personal cars that spool up later than nonsequential setups on twins,so they can\'t dislike it all that much.
Also if properly tuned nonsequental is very drivable,it is not as if the engine is making no power low down the rpm,and it does come on boost earlier than the second turbo does in sequential mode.You can see that the engine is still making power low down in the dyno graph albeit slightly less than the stock setup,but the power curve is much more linear.
Regards
Carl
What a load of twaddle:D Think you will find most singles will spool earlier than non seq.......... if the engine is ported to suit the single turbo, the poor mans single [a la non seq.] is Ok if you cant go the extra £££ for the real deal, best advice is go and get you twins sorted if you wish to keep them and enjoy that early low down rush of the 1st turbo. Dont confuse the big late hit with non seq as extra power;)
Seems to be a lot of strong opinions on here regarding this debate :2Confused
I had a standard FD sequential with no boost problems and loved it. I then discovered that you could go non-seq so thought I\'d try it out. Carl performed the conversion for me and assured me I could go back if I didnt like it. Found that I preferred the power delivery that non-seq gave and so kept it that way. Is the car any quicker ? No, is it any more powerful ? Again no.
Do I prefer the way the power comes in ? Yes :InLove
Like most things in life its all a matter of opinion
Enjoy your rex, seq or non-seq its still a great car. :3gears-lh
Bulla
Quote from: BullaSeems to be a lot of strong opinions on here regarding this debate :2Confused
I had a standard FD sequential with no boost problems and loved it. I then discovered that you could go non-seq so thought I\'d try it out. Carl performed the conversion for me and assured me I could go back if I didnt like it. Found that I preferred the power delivery that non-seq gave and so kept it that way. Is the car any quicker ? No, is it any more powerful ? Again no.
Do I prefer the way the power comes in ? Yes :InLove
Like most things in life its all a matter of opinion
Enjoy your rex, seq or non-seq its still a great car. :3gears-lh .
Well put that man could not agree more:cool
Hi John,
Just thought I would mention that I have at no time said that you get more power with nonsequential so not sure where you got that from.
Also I am not saying that nonsequential is everything,but as Paul said it is a personal choice thing.
Many big singles like the T51 Kai do spool up quite late unless you have a bridge port.The T70 also does.
Regards
Carl
Quote from: CarlHi John,
Just thought I would mention that I have at no time said that you get more power with nonsequential so not sure where you got that from.
Also I am not saying that nonsequential is everything,but as Paul said it is a personal choice thing.
Many big singles like the T51 Kai do spool up quite late unless you have a bridge port.The T70 also does.
Regards
Carl
Yawn:Laugh Think you need to re-read old boy, never mentioned power nor types of turbo, what I did say was a well matched single turbo/ porting will spool earlier than non seq, I totaly agree that it is a personel thing - just trying to give a bit of balance and the benifit of my experience seeing as I have tried most options.
Whats the cost of converting from seq to none seq.
John,you need to read your post\'s very carefully as you contradict yourself,you have clearly mentioned both power and turbo\'s.
Regards
Carl
Quote from: CarlJohn,you need to read your post\'s very carefully as you contradict yourself,you have clearly mentioned both power and turbo\'s.
Regards
Carl
Must be your age Carl:yes never mentioned a turbo on this thread nor have talked about power might have mentioned power delivery [seq vs nonseq] but nowt else dont see that as a contradiction:guinness
Just to reiterate: Non seq is an option for you mainly if you are having boost issues or you like your power in one hit rather than 2. You will see no significant gains in power, running non seq is a bit like a poorly matched single / porting combo but a cheap option if you want to try the single route and with Carls kind offer to do a free reversal if you are looking to do it, it is a win win situation:Laugh
Play nice now won\'t ya! :cheers
It all depends on your driving preference and what you want from your car. Singles are good fun, big singles are awesome on full boost but seq setup is feels far quicker unless of course you are bridged. Uprated twins for the win anyday.