http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/251235.htm (http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/251235.htm)
If on 63K miles its making stock BHP (255.8 bhp), i\'m assuming this isn\'t rebuild territory?
how come his has lasted so long? just cos of oil changes, etc every 3k mikes?
how does he mean "stupid ECU" thought the Apexi with a good re-map would be better?
Apexi ECU and commander, uprated intercooler, straight-through exhaust, and cold air induction is a safe mod, right?
could be tempted with this one... even though it hasn\'t had a rebuild everything seems checked and OK\'d
He is wrong, they dont go to 100k with regular oil changes.
The standard ECU isnt stupid, its designed for a purpose and does that very well.
From my experience they will not last for longer than 60k miles.
when he mentioned "stupid ECU" it was in the context of modding the car..."engine is kept standard no stupid ecu and insane boost hikes"
steer clear then?
I would be interested in his service history, if he is selling this as a top spec car without a rebuild I would want to see how often it has been serviced. 255.8hp sounds about right but its an import and most come without history, if you intend to polish it every week and drive it like a granny it might give you another 10k, personaly I doubt it. Depends what you are looking for, disregard the ECU issue think he is trying to demonstrate its not been abused.
The mods you list are perfectly safe assuming the PFC is mapped properly (no silly boost etc.) In fact you could argue a PFC can improve the life of the engine (or at least turbos) by lowering the boost, should you so wish.
I would want to see compression test results if you\'re seriously considering a car with that mileage (or any mileage without a rebuild warranty in place, to be honest).
He says many of the right things, although saying "no sunroof (rare)" is just plain wrong - having a sunroof would be rare! (And would indicate a Type X or UK car I believe).
What evidence do you have that a 13B-REW can\'t do 100k then?
I\'ve seen a couple of UK spec cars do that. (Ok one did 96k and the other was on 110K iirc) In the US they are getting more than that out of standard cars.
Water seal failure is more likely than anything else I would have thought?
Compression test results won\'t show whether the water seals are on their way out though. In fact, nothing will. So a good compression test, whilst showing the wear on the engine may be good, won\'t necassarily show that the engine is going to last a long time.
I also echo what Brett says/asks :)
Quote from: BrettWhat evidence do you have that a 13B-REW can\'t do 100k then?
I\'ve seen a couple of UK spec cars do that. (Ok one did 96k and the other was on 110K iirc) In the US they are getting more than that out of standard cars.
Water seal failure is more likely than anything else I would have thought?
Just experience of FDs, currently have 22 in the workshop! Just my opinion, could be wrong, but that rarely happens:Tongue1
from experience all cars with no rebuild with that sort of millage will do you about 6 months tops before water seal goes. that car is pretty top dollar for a car without a rebuild and in all honest it doesn\'t look like it warrants that (yes it is quite clean but if buying without rebuild then there is better out there). if you were interested in buying a car without a rebuild i would buy one that is half that price, tidy it up myself and expect that in 6 months i will have to rebuild it. this also allows you to rebuild it to your spec etc
however at that sort of price if you were to add another £1k then that would be at the price for a rebuilt engined/standardish car. which i think would be the better way to go, also if you buy a car off of a well known member off the forum you are more LIKELY to get a better example as generally speaking they are car enthusiasts and look after the cars well.
I agree with Brett here, there are a number of FDs stateside that have cover well in excess of 100k, also some UK cars. Thing is we have water seal failures here more than any other cause of rebuild, maybe it is to do with the coolant used in this country (or the % of coolant in the mix?)
Someone once suggested that it could possibly be due to flooding damage. Many of these cars possibly coming of the cargo transporters and then getting flooded at the ports and standing for a long time? Mine certainly stood for a long period of time with a flooded engine at one time, and not a great deal of time after I had water seal failure.
It\'s a possibility.
I also heard that in Japan they don\'t use coolant in the summer months which would lead to slightly more corrosion and more likely of a waterseal failure.
Mine\'s just gone that by the looks of things at pretty much bang on 60,000 :( Shame really as it\'s compression was absolutely spot on for the age, no troubles at all with it.
Quote from: DRAGONJust experience of FDs, currently have 22 in the workshop! Just my opinion, could be wrong, but that rarely happens:Tongue1
Just get a fork lift under them and stack them outside in the sun :Giggle
I think another possibility is that our cars go through more heat cycles than the american cars. Their roads are longer putting more miles on the car, our roads are shorter but the car cools down and warms up more often because of the short journeys. Mine was imported in 2004. This year the water seals went at just 46,000. I looked after it as much as possible, never overheated but the thing still bloody went. Irons were tiptop, just the seals.
just a stupid thought but mayb the cars you are talking about were still in killometers mine went near enough dead on 60k miles.
Nope, ~100,000km for me :(
Isn\'t it scary how it\'s always around that 60k figure??
Mine was 59k and went pop..
Conspiracy theory time - perhaps it\'s intentional?? :2Rolleyes
Just seems odd everyone seems to pop around the same time.. :Giggle
Quote from: sadgothI agree with Brett here, there are a number of FDs stateside that have cover well in excess of 100k, also some UK cars. Thing is we have water seal failures here more than any other cause of rebuild, maybe it is to do with the coolant used in this country (or the % of coolant in the mix?)
:) They also have 400hp Rx\'s doing low 10\'s ;)
But on a more serious side you have to look at things like the temp change in the motor (i.e. if the outside temp is -10 it will take longer to warm up hence more engine wear etc and there is also a fatigue factor, the Cast plates expand and contract more not helping the life of the water Grooves)
As i\'m sure you will have proberly figured out the 60k thing is only a guide, some don\'t get there and others will see allot more. The thing that worries me is that they go with little to no warning in allot of cases and with the Apex failure its often hard to tell why?? As for water seal groove\'s allot just seem to have very little material around them and just Fatigue and crack (maybe eaten away over time or bad Castings??)
88k-110k seems to be the magic number. I gather this conclusion from the years and years of working at a Rotary Shop.
The other question that would be interesting on this topic is does the RON effect the life of the engine. Does higher RON give higher ignition temps ??
What RON is american fuel ?? Is it something around 88 ??
Shaun
I thought premium was about 90 to 93 in America?
My water seal went at 72K miles (116k km)
Mine had about 75k miles on it and was still going....in fact Martiny bought it off me!
Interesting reading :
http://www.btinternet.com/~madmole/Reference/RONMONPON.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating
Shaun
Good find Shaun :yes
ive got 105k on mine, inport so dont no if its been rebuilt, surpose ill find out soon :Laugh
hmmm, dunno what to make of this, my old 12A turbo from a HB Cosmo had done well over 120,000kms, when they sold it to me, they kept the dashboard from the HB to show.
Its still going strong (hopefully) in my old series 1. And come to think of it, the engine it replaced had done well over 120,000kms before it blew a seal. Why do the FD\'s engines have such a limited lifespan?
Quote from: KevinI thought premium was about 90 to 93 in America?
My water seal went at 72K miles (116k km)
I was going to say the RON / MON / PON thing, buy Shaun beat me to it!
Basically though US Octane Rating is PON (pump octane number) not RON see the links in Shaun\'s post for an explanation, but basically the actual amount of octane in petrol is similar here and in the US (maybe a point less)
Quote from: Rotaryguruhmmm, dunno what to make of this, my old 12A turbo from a HB Cosmo had done well over 120,000kms, when they sold it to me, they kept the dashboard from the HB to show.
Its still going strong (hopefully) in my old series 1. And come to think of it, the engine it replaced had done well over 120,000kms before it blew a seal. Why do the FD\'s engines have such a limited lifespan?
12a have 3mm seals in and seem to go forever. Although when they go you basically find almost everything is junk. My N/A 1st gen 12a engine had done 110k milles before I sold the running engine to Alan who I think is still using it !
Shaun
Same as the N/A 13B\'s - they simply wear out as opposed to failing - I had one Egi lump that had done 156,000miles before it finally lost compression on the rear rotor. The corner piece of the 3 section apex seals had dug a track all the way around the edge of the housing!
Still can\'t complain really :)
I think I know why FD\'s suffer more, well more so imports.
The car is running fine in Japan, the owner is having lots of fun then, Oh no! Water seals blow. So do I get a big expensive rebuild?
Or do I patch it up, put some of the £10 gear in that\'ll last 6 months to a year or so, stick it in the auctions overseas and say goodbye.
Then we all go, it\'s an import, fresh off the boat, starts well, drives well, doesn\'t lose any water, so it\'s all gravey baby! Then 6 months later, regardless of milage, she blows again.
Otherwise why would you auction off a car, unless there\'s something wrong with it? (excluding massive demand as a reason for auction).
I read somewhere that the japs have a much more stricter mot (shaken test), where older cars get harder and harder to pass this test. I also read that the owners are encouraged to buy newer cars and are given special deals that are hard to refuse.
True, I\'ve heard that as well...
...But I still think it\'s a off load them to the silly westerners and their Visa cards! ;) Maybe i\'m just paranoid tho\'
P.S. Still not managed to get the gf to believe the Rotary Rebuild DVD is a soothing rom-com about memebers of a local rotary club.
Only a tiny percentage of the cars in auction come over here though the vast majority are sold to Japanese. But I do agree it could be one reason for an owner to move a car on.
Would the fact that a lot of the cars in the uk as soon as the weather starts to turn are put into a gararge and left standing untill the weather once again turns good? I can\'t see how leaving a car stationary will do it any good from the tips being left in contact with the housings to the coolant possibly starting to go off and all the crud slowy making its way to the lowest point.
Just some random babblings of me and may not make any sesnse what so ever!:guinness
using that logic id put an edging bet that people who use the RX7 as a daily driver would get more before it goes pop. obviously subject to previous owner using the car too.
I agree with Leon...
I have a UK spec FD which is my daily driver. 50-100 miles a day. Had it for a year doing that mileage. Done 115k miles on chassis and 50-60k on rebuilt engine. Compression are spot on. Sure it eats petrol... but never had any problems with it.
If I was to keep it as a "weekend" car or a "summer" car... I bet I would have alot more problems with it.
I seriously rate using the CORRECT spark plug combination also... 7\'s leading, 9\'s trailing. Not 9\'s all round.
Also... it\'s about HOW you drive your car.
They are made to be driven hard. Rotary engines need a "blow out" as such during every drive. WOT all the way up the rev counter. Stops the carbon from building up in an engine that is designed and always tuned to run rich! Driving these cars sensibly (low revs, low throttle) because the owner is worried about a rebuild... is actually one of the worst things you can do to a rotary engine. Shooting yourself in the foot so to speak.
It\'s OK to drive them sensibly, but every run, give the engine a good old clean out. When you first do it... you\'ll see loads of crap come out the exhaust. The more you do it... the cleaner the exhaust emissions (engine) gets. Mine\'s as clean as a whistle.
When buying a rotary... you should ask the question. Has this car been tracked, driven hard, thrashed, etc. If the answer is yes and it runs fine, buy it. If it hasn\'t. Walk away. LOL. The exact OPPOSITE to conventional piston type engines.
Just my 2p worth.
9 times out of 10... apex seal damage I bet is down to carbon build up on the rotor housings or incorrect fuelling (detonation/knock) due to running modifications without the correct fuelling/engine management tuning to go with them.
9 times out of 10... water seal damage I bet is down to using the incorrect fluids causing deterioration and corrosion. Uprated "performance" pressure release caps on the coolant system... which are actually rated too high for the standard water seals. (A good example of how a cheap £20 modification can cost you ALOT more in the long run).
9 times out of 10... overheating (and warping of engine components) I bet is down to a crappy AST, still having the exhaust CAT\'s on (especially pre-CAT) and not uprating the inadequate cooling system. Get yourself a better radiator such as a Koyo and a cooling thermostat such as a Sard one.
Anyone disagree?
Sounds about right, These cars are getting old in the teeth now so the AST\'s would start to fail they are what in some cases a 17 year old peice of plastic thats under pressure.
The rad would be a nice upgrade i have to admit but im in no rush to do it as the current one is adiquate for my needs. The cause of Det/Seal failure i can imagine is hard to workout. It makes sense that running a high pressure system would put added strain and an already old and worn system in most cases.
And i totaly agree about driving the car around at low revs, i quite often when i hit the motorway take it all the way up till i hear the little *beep* :3gears-lh. The car seems to sound better for it also.
Quote from: Tiger_kpt9 times out of 10... apex seal damage I bet is down to carbon build up on the rotor housings or incorrect fuelling (detonation/knock) due to running modifications without the correct fuelling/engine management tuning to go with them.
9 times out of 10... water seal damage I bet is down to using the incorrect fluids causing deterioration and corrosion. Uprated "performance" pressure release caps on the coolant system... which are actually rated too high for the standard water seals. (A good example of how a cheap £20 modification can cost you ALOT more in the long run).
9 times out of 10... overheating (and warping of engine components) I bet is down to a crappy AST, still having the exhaust CAT\'s on (especially pre-CAT) and not uprating the inadequate cooling system. Get yourself a better radiator such as a Koyo and a cooling thermostat such as a Sard one.
Anyone disagree?
I do disagree with some of your posts. You only really get carbon build up on the rotors, you get small amounts on the housings. IMO, the apex seals blow because of underfueling, over revving and too much abuse. I dont think water seal damage is caused by incorrect coolant though, mainly caused by bad design, old age, lots of heat cycles and not changing the coolant every 2 years. I\'ve noticed the renesis engines have the water seals in the housings instead of the iron plates. Like you say, it\'s not worth upgrading the pressure cap when the mazda cap does the job better, why anyone would want to up the pressure in the coolant system is beyond me. I also think it\'s a waste of time upgrading or removing the thermostat, what for? The engine is designed to operate at a certain temp. 78-90C The stock thermostat brings it upto temp quicker than the sard one. That means the engine is running at optimum temperature for longer which is only good news.
Anyone who over revs the engine deliberatly is asking for trouble, thats what the redline is for. Yeah i can see how it happens make a change incorrect fueling treat it as before a lean condition while the engine is under stress.
So its a bit of a fine balllance if you dont give them enough you run the risk of blocking the engine up with carbon wich is a slow process. Or you give it too much and you run this risk of blowing it that way. :Giggle
tbh once mine goes and i have it rebuilt ill be treating it exactly the same as now! (After the runin period ofcourse)
Quote from: RobbieRX-7I do disagree with some of your posts. You only really get carbon build up on the rotors, you get small amounts on the housings. IMO, the apex seals blow because of underfueling, over revving and too much abuse. I dont think water seal damage is caused by incorrect coolant though, mainly caused by bad design, old age, lots of heat cycles and not changing the coolant every 2 years. I\'ve noticed the renesis engines have the water seals in the housings instead of the iron plates. Like you say, it\'s not worth upgrading the pressure cap when the mazda cap does the job better, why anyone would want to up the pressure in the coolant system is beyond me. I also think it\'s a waste of time upgrading or removing the thermostat, what for? The engine is designed to operate at a certain temp. 78-90C The stock thermostat brings it upto temp quicker than the sard one. That means the engine is running at optimum temperature for longer which is only good news.
I agree with Robbie here, and I dont think we should go WOT to the beeper every time, maybe lets say we just give it a run regularly where the Secondary Turbo comes on.
I think 9/10 aprex seal failures are on badly modified cars.
The coolant failures are from not changing the coolant regularly.
I think the stock radiator , thermostat, and cap are up to the job.