(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/weebockle/archrust.jpg)
Both rear arches are slightly rusty. Just on the bit thart folds over at the arch.
The pic is of the worst one.
Any advice.. easy fix??
their is only one cure for rust grind or cut it out
feasable to cut it out??
It\'s not drastic, just want to catch it before it gets worse.
in that area u have to be carefull of splitting the lip but a grinder will take it out then filler..u could rub fill and spray but it will allways come back rust is a **** and needs to be got rid of completely..that is an awkward place to get it..
not much for a bodyshop to do though?
thats it Jim scrap it, it starts with rust:2eek
mine are starting to go like that aswell but mine is a FB so there is probably more behind it!
good chance to get some wide arches on there:D
Mark
Scrap it.. thought so... I\'ll take a sledge hammer to it tomorrow. :)
So... easy DIY job or bodyshop?
just sand it and then use some cure rust (or just go to the store and ask for some rust converter)
then get a touch up paint thing and give it a go with that. rust gone not coming back.
sand it and use some krust stuff.. I know what you\'re on about. Converts it to a paintable surface.
Then I\'ll get some primer and paint and spray it? Mask it up etc so no over spray. Sound like a plan?
Will that stop it??
Also.. how far will I go... just about half way into the lip. Obviously, I don\'t want to go onto the rear quarter area.
At the end of the day... even if the paint job\'s not 100%, it\'s not gonna be that noticable where it is.
The only thing I was thinking is maybe I should take the skirts off and see if it has gone down a bit?
u cant convert rust to metal its like a cancer never found seen any off those things cure rust ask any bodyshop
ok... a trip to the bodyshop then... "Fix it" ... "thank you" .... lol
forget about spray or matching colour, Use hammerlit black smooth print and primer.
Nobody will notice it anyway!:Thumbsup! :D
So what you people say then.... DIY or bodyshop??
dude that kurust works man. ive used it with mucho success. however on panels you can see rusty holes through it wont work lol.
Jim - if you rub the area to bare metal then give it a dab of that stuff i think it also galvanises, you wont see rust again, use some smooth hammerite in black of course and no one will notice - good idea Ian!
anyway what you worried about! you managed to change an engine on the main road and now your worried about a little bit of rust?
fix it - make sure you do a good job - if you **** it up - off to the bodyshop.
Quote from: Jim_rx7So what you people say then.... DIY or bodyshop??
I\'m glad this thread has helped you make your decision!! :rollin
I\'d clean up as much of the rust as I can using sandpaper and/or a wire brush, Kurust the rest and paint it.
If it comes back or you get the seam pushed apart, it\'s bodyshop time IMHO.
You call that rust? :rollin
i done mine with really fine glasspaper, then resprayed, done the job
Quote from: BrettYou call that rust? :rollin
bahaha i was gonna say "ever had a look under an fc?!!"
Quote from: rx7veilsidetheir is only one cure for rust grind or cut it out
B*llocks. I work on aircraft and you can get this stuff called jenolite jelly. Take some from the tube and apply to the rust without getting any on your skin or paintwork. Leave to dry for about 25 mins and wipe off. Clean the area which is now free from rust and treat with primer and paint. Its about £4 to buy and its awesome.
Enjoy
Quote from: FEED Rocketjenolite jelly.
The stuff of champions! :Thumbs-up :Thumbs-up :wave :god :Thumbs-up
Quote from: FEED Rocketjenolite jelly
Never heard of that stuff, does it really work?
I have tried about 5 different brands and they are all a load of crap! I can\'t understand how they are allowed to sell! I keep trying other brands because after days of removing rust it just gets a little tiring! It\'s always back to bear metal for me then acid etch primer upwards!
Quote from: FEED RocketB*llocks. I work on aircraft and you can get this stuff called jenolite jelly. Take some from the tube and apply to the rust without getting any on your skin or paintwork. Leave to dry for about 25 mins and wipe off. Clean the area which is now free from rust and treat with primer and paint. Its about £4 to buy and its awesome.
Enjoy
Realy?? My Old man works for British Aerospace and has just been the Liason between the BAE and the RAF on the Lancaster, belive me when i tell you they did not treat any rust ;) plus there is very little Steel in a plane, Alloy Oxidises or Corrodes but its not Rust as found in cars (steel).
Where as i work in a Bodyshop, i have done LOTS of rebuilds on old Jags etc and rx7veilside is spot on, The only sure fire way to treat rust is cut it out and start again. There is ways of removing rust from say a stone chip thats gone rusty (shot blaster) but from a seam you are only dressing up the problem as you can not get to the rust thats causing the problem and it will be back, these rust treatments may kill rust (or what ever they Claim) but from experiance it only affects the Top layer of rust, if you don\'t grind it to death to start will the rust Stuff will just sit on the Top and not do allot (don\'t forget Rust creates Pits that are well below the surface so when you grind the top off have a good look at it and i bet you will see lots of Black dots where the Pits are)
This is why i tell eveyone that buys a Jap import to get it wax oiled (well) before it see\'s one of out winters (and get it redone once a year at the end of Summer), when you have owned or worked on a UK spec FD you will understand they come with Little to no protection from the factory and the Jap cars are worse as they are subjected to lots of Heat which as every one knows melts wax and it disperses over time.
Mine is a UK FD.
I\'ll DIY it and if it\'s crap or it comes back anytime soon, I\'ll get it done at a bodyshop I think.
And yes... I changed an engine at the side of the road, but I think that was a fluke... lol.
I know nothing else about anything. All I know is how to do the engine. lol
Quote from: Jim_rx7Mine is a UK FD.
Say no more. I am yet to see a UK Fd that is not showing signs :(
It\'s not that bad tho. Underneath seems ok too. I\'ve spent quite a bit under there.
Saying that... the oil lines split because of corrosion. Replaced them tho.
My rear arch lips have some bubbling.....its because the rear arches have inner flat surfaces that hold grime/dirt/water...despite cleaning these inner lips it has happened..I bet front arch rust is unusual as there\'s no inner ledge to catch crud!.I agree with "cut it out" or it will slowly spread:mad:
How about just cutting the inner arch part out?? So it\'s more like the front arches??
Quote from: GrizzlyRealy?? My Old man works for British Aerospace and has just been the Liason between the BAE and the RAF on the Lancaster, belive me when i tell you they did not treat any rust ;) plus there is very little Steel in a plane, Alloy Oxidises or Corrodes but its not Rust as found in cars (steel).
Where as i work in a Bodyshop, i have done LOTS of rebuilds on old Jags etc and rx7veilside is spot on, The only sure fire way to treat rust is cut it out and start again. There is ways of removing rust from say a stone chip thats gone rusty (shot blaster) but from a seam you are only dressing up the problem as you can not get to the rust thats causing the problem and it will be back, these rust treatments may kill rust (or what ever they Claim) but from experiance it only affects the Top layer of rust, if you don\'t grind it to death to start will the rust Stuff will just sit on the Top and not do allot (don\'t forget Rust creates Pits that are well below the surface so when you grind the top off have a good look at it and i bet you will see lots of Black dots where the Pits are)
This is why i tell eveyone that buys a Jap import to get it wax oiled (well) before it see\'s one of out winters (and get it redone once a year at the end of Summer), when you have owned or worked on a UK spec FD you will understand they come with Little to no protection from the factory and the Jap cars are worse as they are subjected to lots of Heat which as every one knows melts wax and it disperses over time.
I\'m currently serving the the Royal Air Force at RAF Coningsby on Typhoon. We don\'t use Jenolite here as the Typhoon has little to rust on it as its made from CFRP and KRP etc. Before my time here i was at RNAS Yeovilton working on Mk3 and Mk8 Lynx. These along with
alot of aircraft have many steel parts (especially in the engine for heat shielding) which need to be treated or they will rust. This was a big problem for the Lynx as it spends most its time at sea, and sea spray(brine) is a major catalyst for iron oxide.
It is all relative on how bad the rust is. With RAF and Navy aircraft, we flight service them everyday to check for signs of corrosion, and we treat minor rust (like on Jims car) with Jenolite Jelly. Yes it works, i\'ve used it more times than i can remember. But you need to treat it afterwards or it will happen again.
Are you sure your\'s is a uk spec jim?? Looks like a jap spec from the rear bumper.What engine size is on the log book?
I\'ve been told by 2 or 3 bodyshops that the only way to stop deep rust is to cut it out to unifected material. Once it eats right through the metal, it is unsolvable where as surface rust can be treated as long as there is fresh clean metal underneath.
Your\'s looks like it could do with the rust being cut out because it has gone rotton from inside the wheel arch caused by wet mud and salt not being washed out properley. It will only come back if you dont do it properley. Get an opinion from a few pro bodyshops and tell them you want it doing properley.
It\'s a UK mate. The chassis number doesn\'t start with FD. J something or other. I\'ll have a look later.
All in miles etc also.
I\'ll pop along to my bodyshop sometime soon and see what they say. Because of where it is, I would assume it can easily be cut out without the need of putting in new metal.
Quote from: Jim_rx7It\'s a UK mate. The chassis number doesn\'t start with FD. J something or other. I\'ll have a look later.
All in miles etc also.
I\'ll pop along to my bodyshop sometime soon and see what they say. Because of where it is, I would assume it can easily be cut out without the need of putting in new metal.
The rust is minor, use some Jenolite on that badboy and protect it!
No one has yet mentioned the long term effect of welding in a patch? Ie the heat affected metal around the weld will be liable to rust very quickly. Don\'t cut out anything until its that or lace car. (ie you can push your finger though it its that soft.) Clean it, aplly the jenolite and then waxoyl it. You will need to apply the waxoyl every summer or two, but it wont rust. Don\'t forget to do the inside of the doors etc, inside any box sections and any other hard to get to rust traps. (Out of interest - what is the FD power plant frame made from? That looks like a potential rust pit to me)
:wave
Good to see someone else thats heard of Jenolite. Nobody seems to be listening. Whats the point in paying a bodyshop to cut and grind bits off your car when you can fix the problem with a little cream, lol!
Cut/grind out the effected arches then buy and fit some aftermarket ones!!
job done....and a great excuse to update the look of your car....
:D
Quote from: FEED RocketI\'m currently serving the the Royal Air Force at RAF Coningsby on Typhoon. We don\'t use Jenolite here as the Typhoon has little to rust on it as its made from CFRP and KRP etc. Before my time here i was at RNAS Yeovilton working on Mk3 and Mk8 Lynx. These along with alot of aircraft have many steel parts (especially in the engine for heat shielding) which need to be treated or they will rust. This was a big problem for the Lynx as it spends most its time at sea, and sea spray(brine) is a major catalyst for iron oxide.
It is all relative on how bad the rust is. With RAF and Navy aircraft, we flight service them everyday to check for signs of corrosion, and we treat minor rust (like on Jims car) with Jenolite Jelly. Yes it works, i\'ve used it more times than i can remember. But you need to treat it afterwards or it will happen again.
The thing is i don\'t want it to happen again? when i repair a car i try my best to remove all the rust and in turn it won\'t (with a bit of luck) come back. TBH i think we\'re talking about diffrent things, you are looking at a temp repair and i\'m looking at a Long term fix.
From first hand experiance (i have done this on more than one FD) without removing the Top section of the Arch (dubble skin) you can not treat the rust in between the two panels, Even if this Rust treatment Works (and i realy would not lay money on it) you would be better off sealing the edge where the two panels join so its water tight then remove the 1/4 trim and leather the inner arch with wax oil (don\'t buy the cheap stuff as it just runs back out again)
What i am saying if the arch has Spread (if it has you will know what i mean) there is No rust treatment or cures that will save you from cutting sections out of your arches.
You will find the the biggest killer on arch seams is capilary action, where the two panels are not sealed properly and the Welder has Burnt through the Primer (goes rusty round the Spot welds).
Brett, You are saying about welding making the panels thinner and speeding up the prosses of the Rust returning, We have recently had all this with Vauxhall, they have started using Boron to build there new cars from, so this means we have to test weld samples and send it to there testers before we could get approved, 5 of or 6 welders Failed so we had to buy Mig Brazers and state of the art Spot welders (at 25k each) to get up to there Approved Level. Now we Can garantee the Spot weld or Seam weld to be as strong as the factory, But that said i don\'t know many Body shops that will fork out 100k on welders like that so chancer are you will be right in saying like for like the New Weld will be weaker than a Factory one, but thats when it comes down to the guy who is doing the Repair, if there is NO rust left all fresh and is prep\'d Painted and sealed then Wax oiled Properly then there is no reason it won\'t last longer than the OE section.
This is a subject i like to think our shop is good at fixing, we do alot of Crash work (its the part of Body shop work where the money is) and i can show you pics of 2 year old Cars we have taken Panels off where there is rust inside the seam already. The last time i asked the Vauxhall warantee guy why? his reply was "all new cars are designed to last 5 years" Thats it!!!!! Would not go into it any more than that. Good Ehhh. Thats why Germans build the best cars :)
*cough* Recent Mercedes E-Class rust *cough*
TBH your Rust does look like Stone chips and could be easly fixed.
Worrie if it looks like this. As i say world of UK Fd\'s...
What type of waxoil would you reccommend then? I once read that it cracks and lets the water in, trapping water and rotting the metal.
Quote from: elford_tim*cough* Recent Mercedes E-Class rust *cough*
Lets just say Merc are not what they where and there Cost Cutting has made them look bad in recent years.
Quote from: RobbieRX-7What type of waxoil would you reccommend then? I once read that it cracks and lets the water in, trapping water and rotting the metal.
Your getting mixed up with Stone chip, that stuff is designed to be painted over and will crack.
Wax oil is Good because if its Scratched when the weather warms up it goes soft and seals its self, it also can be warmed up and sprayed into 1/4 panels etc so the same capilary effect that draws water into the seams will draw the Wax oil in (but be warned if you go mad you will be cleaning it off your drive for a month)
At the Moment we use 3m cavity wax as its quite thick and doesn\'t end up all over the place but there are loads of other makes etc, i would recomend you buy from a paint Supplys shop (if you have one in your area) for the simple reason Wax oil can be thinned so the cheaper stuff is just Thinner so it looks like more (if you know what i mean) and with wax oil thicker is better you can always warm it up to thinn it a bit if you need to.
Ok here\'s how jenolite works. On minor rust it will eat away at the iron oxide leaving the bare metal intact. After this you need to treat the bare metal with waxoyl, but preferably prime and paint it. If its a major rust point then obviously it will need to be cut. Jim\'s patch doesn\'t look bad at all, but i can\'t see underneath so i can\'t comment.
Where would I get this jenolite stuff?
Ok i have done a bit of reading up (Cant say i have used the stuff) but what i have used is phosphoric acid, which is the same thing but the Jenolite is thicker Viscosity so it stays where its put better but costs ALLOT!! more.
This is how we use the phosphoric acid, Shot blast the Rust (so there is a clean surface 100% rust free) apply the Acid and wait for it to dry, Scuff off and Apply Etch Primer then stopper up the Pin holes left by the Rust.
Sound about right?? I know for a fact the Acid is no way strong enough to disolve Iron Oxide, its about as strong as vinegar and did you know there is a Old rust trick in the trade where you pore Coke over the preped area and the phosphoric acid in it does exactly the same thing. If you want something a bit stronger go to a farmer\'s suppliers and buy "Milk Stone Remover" i belive its about as strong as you can buy phosphoric acid over the counter :)
You still need to clean the rust up well before applying the stuff as it will only kill the top layer. You would see more benifit scratching of the loose rust and black Hammerite the area.
Jim, You need some one with a Shot blaster to clean the Rust pits out, that was you stand a chance of it not coming back in twelve months.
Quote from: Jim_rx7Where would I get this jenolite stuff?
You can get it from the net, just do a search on jenolite. Its around £3 for a tube and lasts ages.
Just got mine professionally done by Michael at Rustmaster.co.uk
Very good service and very helpful
Regards
Mark
Quote from: BrettYou call that rust? :rollin
+1!!
You shoulda seen my 1st FB,was more akin to a teabag!!:p
You want rust??? :) do we hear a Rust battle.... LOL. we have a Jenson interceptor in bits all over the place at the moment (at work) and the guy has given us an Open cheque to get it done, but lets put it this way the guy who took it apart could not jack it up because there was nothing solid to put the jack under, when the carpets came out you can flintstone style put your feet through the floor. Goosed... i hope there is a good supply of panels.
I\'ll get some pics when i get a min on Monday its entertaining to say the least what people see as repairable, this has been stood outside for the last 20 years :rollin
But that kind of thing is in a different leuge, i don\'t know about others but i just don\'t like the idea of any rust being on my personal car just because i know how much of a B*****d it can be to get rid of.
Right thats it....this is war!
I\'m off to my workshop to take pics of my mates two Lancia Beta\'s and Alfasud.......that\'ll show ya!:2Mad :rolleyes:
:) it would have to be bad to rival out Jenson LOL
We did a Alfa Sud a few years ago :( not a nice experiance.
We have a good one coming in 1930\'s Skoda :) they don\'t make them like that anymore (Thank God)
You gotta love italian metal, my first quick car was a Lancia Delta turbo and I had the edge over most people because I\'m pretty sure it only weighed about 400kilos in decent metal,there wasn\'t a great deal holding her together thats for sure but she was seriously fun. Apart from the turbo lag which wasn\'t fun at all.
That skoda sounds ace....talking of skoda\'s does anyone know what happened to that sky blue Estelle with the 13B lump which was on eBay about 6 months ago?
Well the UK FD owners can;t have been very kind to their cars then from what you\'ve seen, i have a UK FD and there is no visible rust anywhere on the bodywork, can prove it with pictures if you dont believe me...
Ayway, mine hasn\'t been wax oiled on the underneath but is underbody sealed every 2 years, then again it doesn\'t see the rain very often and is also in a heated garage so guess this all pays off really :Laugh
well what do you expect? if you keep you car in a heated garage and have a second car then it will last longer, but the ones i have seen have been used and believe me they don\'t fair well to rain or salt on the roads.
O and i have Pictures to prove it too ;)
If you want a tip don\'t if your Underbody sealer is the same as our Schultz or stone chip you could cause your self problems, i say this because the thicker the Schultz gets the more prone it is to crack or lift from the metal then you get a Capillary action drawing mosture in and of cause the moisture won\'t evaporate off as its sealed in between two waterproof layers, I personally use wax oil because its thin and you can get it under subframes etc but on arches i like Black wax, it is self healing and tends to last quite a while.
Thanks for the tip anyways :Thumbs-up
Back to the original question tho, i have used Kurust and others on surface rust only and seems to hold for a while, but as Grizzly says it is more than likely to re-occur and did on mine, although it was an MG Montego at the time lol....
Oh and Grizzly, got to love the interceptor, one of my mates has got one, but never sees the light of day anymore, too expensive to run... (sorry for the slight hijack :) )
Quote from: SmbFD3SOh and Grizzly, got to love the interceptor, one of my mates has got one, but never sees the light of day anymore, too expensive to run... (sorry for the slight hijack :) )
This is the kind of fun My colleague is having at the mo, thats basically the story, there aint allot behind the Stainless sill covers ether :)
^ thats before we really got into it :) its allot worse now we\'ve been poking it with screw drivers ;)
I have to say the V8 sounds nice (if not a bit loud) with no exhausts on :)
Ive been undersealing the fd today. Just using some hammerite underbody seal stuff. Got the front wings off and doing all the places behind the arch liner and also the front of the car behind the bumper support and behind the pop up\'s. Ive found a nasty water trap on the fd where it could potentially rust through the sill below the vent in the wing where the wing attaches to the sill. Luckily there is zero rust anywhere on mine and i didn\'t realise this but the sills are showing bare metal but luckily no rust. I think the fd\'s might be galvanised. Im glad i decided not to go out in salty wet roads now.
Have you fitted the bumper back on yet mate? :)
Bilt Hamber make the best rust cure products available, Alot of people who restore cars these days swear by their products:
http://www.bilthamber.com/deoxgel.html
Quote from: Ricco_04Have you fitted the bumper back on yet mate? :)
No not yet mate. You know how it is though. You think "oh, while thats off, i\'ll do this, then this, then that" and so on, so what was a simple job of getting a bumper painted has resulted in me removing the front dampers and eliminating the ast lol.
(http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j250/RobbieRx-7/Photo-0037.jpg)
(http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j250/RobbieRx-7/Photo-0036.jpg)
Yeah I know what you mean! Looks good though - except for that fool in the background! :Giggle