hi guys,
i know this has been discussed and ive read up before but i wanted a few facts.
anyone who came on the recent london traffic run will know what im on about.
anyway can anyone clearly give thier opinion on what temps are safe?
ie
xx to xx too low yy to yy pefect and zz to zz to high and !! to !! boom?
also some thoughts on relocating your air temp sender as i decided against it before and though mazda new what they are on about but since i have begun to think otherwise.
clive, carl ross etc your thoughts wold be much appreciated! :Thumbsup!
I reckon anything above 55C is not good when boosting... if your moving slowly along traffic then its okay...
mine hit 78!! :eek
plus i couldnt get them down quick enough for the tunnels and it just seemed liek it wouldnt go below high 60s for the whole night then on the m25 at like 4am down to mid 30s :)
hence me asking as 50+ annoys me and now i think i will be getting a new sender.
In these hot summer days you can\'t do much about the air temps as such if you are stuck in traffic till you move and hit the open road again. Thats why i have just got the oil temps guage on and it gives me the temps inside the engine so that i know when to wot or not till the temps are steady:Thumbsup!
i have 3 water temp displays i.e stock , apexi and aftermarket 2 x pressure and 1x oil temp :)
doesnt make em any colder though :(
thats the problem with the air temp sensor location, its right under above the engine, hence it gets heat soaked big time. I\'ve had my air temps at 80C before I put ducting around my intercooler
I don\'t think it\'s a problem with the air temp sensor being where it is. After all, if the upper inlet manifold heat soaks, then so does the air in the upper inlet manifold. It\'s reading a valid temperature. Locating elsewhere is akin to sticking it out the window: it\'s nice and cool, but not realistic to the actual temperature in your inlet.
What would be a good idea is putting some insulation under the upper inlet manifold, to try and stop the heat soak so much.
I was seeing mid 40\'s yesterday with a v-mount intercool. The ambient air temps were about 26/27, possibly higher. So that\'s about 18ish over ambient, which aint great, but is still not bad.
mid 40s i would consider spot on for mixed driving.
i get your point also but i think that the air going through the uim when you boosting is going so quick it cant really soak can it? boost is when it matters i think as the density of the air compared to what the ecu reakons it is could mean lots of cool dense air and no fuel to balance?
The heat soak occurs due to the heat coming off the engine. It just heats the UIM up like it\'s been in an oven. It\'s very hard to then get that temp down.
For example, on a hot day, drive your car, let it get nice and warm. Then turn it off, go away and leave it for 30 minutes or so. When you come back and switch the ignition on, you\'ll see the air temps are already very high.
I agree the sender imo is in the right position as it gives the temps on entering the engine, traffic will always be a problem with smic and fmic due to size and pipe runs, one of the advantages I found on the old car running with the charge cooler in traffic it never seemed to get above 45ish which I thought was OK, give it some WOT coupled with the WI and temps would plumit to low 20\'s:Thumbs-up
The new car I am running with the PWR V mount and I seem to be getting similar readings.
I would be more concerned with my water / oil temps anything above 90/95 in traffic I would start to worry, this would indicate to me your rad aint doing its job, inlet temps \'should\' not kill your engine - might put it into limp mode but wont kill it!
On track with my original FMIC I would see 65\'s on a regular basis which is getting on the high side, one of the reasons for trying different setups........all in the cause of research:Thumbs-up
Actually, 90/95 water temps are high. That\'s quite normal (Remember that the twin turbo standard FD the low speed fans only come on at this point. Very high speed setting comes on at 110 or something - still not a problem). 100 degrees coolant is not boiling. Many ordinary cars normal operating temps are actually 95, and therefore the RX-7 actually runs cooler most of the time.
research aye :P
exactly what i wanted John :)
i just keep thinking that most people dont even worry about air temps very much in most cars but i was wondering how much it affects the rotary.
does the apexi have limp mode?
i am runing base map but i have a boost controller set so that boost doesnt exceed 0.70 bar
Quote from: nikpActually, 90/95 water temps are high. That\'s quite normal (Remember that the twin turbo standard FD the low speed fans only come on at this point. Very high speed setting comes on at 110 or something - still not a problem). 100 degrees coolant is not boiling. Many ordinary cars normal operating temps are actually 95, and therefore the RX-7 actually runs cooler most of the time.
yep, compressed water doesnt boil till about 120+ i think but anything above 115 and i would be worried.
i have my apexi set so that it switches fans on at 90 so i dont get anything higher than 92 :chat
oil - mine normally sits between 75 and 90 but saturday it hit 100! but again unless that was 120 or something i wouldnt be worried.
Come on guys you know you wanna install WI.
Rolling around on Sunday in traffic, getting 50\'s, soon as I boost it I hit low 20s after 10 seconds.
Good idea on heat shielding the UIM to prevent heat soak, may buy some from Demon Tweeks
yeah, i have plans to buy some heat shielding. I also plan on getting some WI at some point. Blinkin\' wedding is getting in the way though! :p
Damn those women! :D
How about this stuff for the underside of the UIM: http://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/HEAT-INSULATION-Ally-Glass-Cloth/c36_473/index.html
would that not help to cook your rats nest? or those with it?
pah, who cares: I\'m on single turbo! :D Nothing to cook under there for me!
But, in all seriousness, the rats nest is probably subject to very high heat regardless of whether a bit more is reflected down.
Quote from: nikpActually, 90/95 water temps are high. That\'s quite normal (Remember that the twin turbo standard FD the low speed fans only come on at this point. Very high speed setting comes on at 110 or something - still not a problem). 100 degrees coolant is not boiling. Many ordinary cars normal operating temps are actually 95, and therefore the RX-7 actually runs cooler most of the time.
Totaly agree, my point was if you are contunualy seeing high water temps [+95] then you have cooling issues, sitting in traffic your primary fan should cope, if its not then you have a problem. High ambiant temps might push this up a bit, but, as I recall sat night was low 20\'s so no problem there. Oh and yes the Apexi has a limp mode.
cheers john :cheers
lol...my air-t topped out at 84 on the tunnel run and the water was only at 89
water injection here I come...
Same here, water temp has never gone above 89 but air temp upto 82 once.
Normally around the 60 mark. Late at night or winter around the 30\'s.
The cars standard bar the cat back and Apexi FC.
Wow! I never realised how inefficient the standard intercooler was!
Quote from: nikpWow! I never realised how inefficient the standard intercooler was!
Used to known as a interheater:o
My stock intercooler didn\'t seem that bad for me - probably because I always drove like a granny!
Quote from: m4drxdoes the apexi have limp mode?
I believe once you hit around 60-65inlet temps then the Apexi will add extra fuel to help combat the situation anyway. Not a proper answer I know but it is a compensation :D
Quote from: m4drxyep, compressed water doesnt boil till about 120+ i think but anything above 115 and i would be worried.
Don\'t forget, the measured water temperature is average. There\'s going to be hotspots in places.....
Quote from: Ricco_04My stock intercooler didn\'t seem that bad for me - probably because I always drove like a granny!
I believe once you hit around 60-65inlet temps then the Apexi will add extra fuel to help combat the situation anyway. Not a proper answer I know but it is a compensation :D
Afair apexi\'s dont chuck in extra fuel for those \'over heat\' moments:2Rolleyes they just shut everything down and allow you to \'limp\' home so that you dont break anything, you would have to look at your peramiters to see when the Apexi say\'s no!
Pretty sure at 60 degreee intake the apexi will retard the timing to keep things safe
thanks for your comments etc guys very helpfull i will now consider either intercooler change - i only have a trust smic at home but no $$$ to get remap so may leave it. but saying that i have a boost controller set to 0.70 so adding my BIG smic shouldnt cause any issues it also has very good ducting.
now also considering wrapping up cerain bit such as intercooler pipes although they are nice and shiny they get bloody hot! also WI is on me mind :)
anyway i like to get opinions so when other people search on here good info is to be found :)
Quote from: John YorkeAfair apexi\'s dont chuck in extra fuel for those \'over heat\' moments:2Rolleyes they just shut everything down and allow you to \'limp\' home so that you dont break anything, you would have to look at your peramiters to see when the Apexi say\'s no!
Good info, thank you :Thumbs-up
Found some info on Air Temp Sensor relocation. Still not sure if it\'s worth doing? :xconfused
http://www.negative-camber.org/crispyrx7/ait.htm (http://www.negative-camber.org/crispyrx7/ait.htm)
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=202786&highlight=air+temp+sensor (http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=202786&highlight=air+temp+sensor)
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=110226&highlight=air+temp+sensor (http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=110226&highlight=air+temp+sensor)
Quote from: Kash_Found some info on Air Temp Sensor relocation. Still not sure if it\'s worth doing? :xconfused
http://www.negative-camber.org/crispyrx7/ait.htm (http://www.negative-camber.org/crispyrx7/ait.htm)
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=202786&highlight=air+temp+sensor (http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=202786&highlight=air+temp+sensor)
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=110226&highlight=air+temp+sensor (http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=110226&highlight=air+temp+sensor)
i want to do this and i will use the stock sensor just so i improve things but not too drastic but i want someone else to drill and tap my elboe because i know i whill fduk it up.
Quote from: nikpWow! I never realised how inefficient the standard intercooler was!
Works fine on my 12A,less than 1psi pressure drop at 1 bar boost,max Air temp 40c,and about 75c on the strip with 1.6 bar boost.That is with no ducting,and the bonnet shut on top of it!
Quote from: TimrxmotorsWorks fine on my 12A,less than 1psi pressure drop at 1 bar boost,max Air temp 40c,and about 75c on the strip with 1.6 bar boost.That is with no ducting,and the bonnet shut on top of it!
i think it has alot to do with the fd engine bay being packed and the temp sender as i believe the fb one is far more sensitive.
how are you down there anyway!
you coming to japshow by any chance?
:Thumbsup!
Quote from: m4drxi want to do this and i will use the stock sensor just so i improve things but not too drastic but i want someone else to drill and tap my elboe because i know i whill fduk it up.
I still don\'t think it\'ll prove anything. Ok, you\'ll see lower temps, but my belief is that you\'re fooling yourself into believing that\'s the temp of the air going into the engine. If the temp sensor gets heat soaked, then don\'t you think the air in the manifold is also getting heat soaked? What you really need to look into is stopping so much heat from soaking into the manifold - like putting insulation on it.
Quote from: nikpI still don\'t think it\'ll prove anything. Ok, you\'ll see lower temps, but my belief is that you\'re fooling yourself into believing that\'s the temp of the air going into the engine. If the temp sensor gets heat soaked, then don\'t you think the air in the manifold is also getting heat soaked? What you really need to look into is stopping so much heat from soaking into the manifold - like putting insulation on it.
insulation yes i agree but i think the degree of heat soak is worse on the sender as the air rushes through with such speed when your moving that it wont soak much.
plus the way i see it if the temp is higher and the air is actually cooler then you are risking running lean when you put your foot down etc but if the air gets a little heatsoaked it has a less negative effect as it will run slightly rich.
also the greddy elbow will get heat soaked anyway so this should only improve it slightly but i do believe it is the worst place for it. also WI costs more otherwise i would have done that i suppose.
anyway your thoughts are appreciated guys!
i like a good debate as this subject has no right or wrong without prooven facts i suppose A/F ratios etc.
maybe someone with a wideband could do a test for us :) measure a/f ratio with sensor in stock position and in the elbow?
would be very difficult to make it accurate but possible.
there is a big lack of back to back testing with stuff for rexs ie exhaust intecoolers etc etc they seem to be common with other cars.
On the back to back testing, I\'ve had a PFC with datalogit and Zeitronix wideband for about a year. I log every journey I make.
Last year the car was mechanically very standard. Air temps were often in the 50\'s, but didn\'t really drop much below mid 40\'s on the motorway in the summer. My main concern was water temps. I usually saw 83-84 on the motorway, but even a long hill would push the temp to 90+ while still doing 60 mph + in traffic. As soon as the fan came on (AC button) the temp dropped. This suggested a dreadful lack of air through the radiator.
Over the winter I went single and took the chance to upgrade the cooling. I now have a custom radiator from Alisport and a 600 * 300 * 100 FMIC. I was careful with ducting, undertray and sealing round the radiator etc. I also have a vented bonnet.
On Friday I got stuck in the goodwood traffic for an hour. Water temp went up from 84 to 85 ! Air temp reached 56. As I got moving again, the air temps were back in the 30\'s before I even got into 5th gear. 30 against an ambient of about 25 seems usual when pottering along on the motorway.
So for the comparison, the stock radiator, intercooler and general shrouding of them is hopeless. Large FMIC\'s do seem to work, despite the concern over blocking the radiator.
Keith
Quote from: kbarehamOn the back to back testing, I\'ve had a PFC with datalogit and Zeitronix wideband for about a year. I log every journey I make.
Last year the car was mechanically very standard. Air temps were often in the 50\'s, but didn\'t really drop much below mid 40\'s on the motorway in the summer. My main concern was water temps. I usually saw 83-84 on the motorway, but even a long hill would push the temp to 90+ while still doing 60 mph + in traffic. As soon as the fan came on (AC button) the temp dropped. This suggested a dreadful lack of air through the radiator.
Over the winter I went single and took the chance to upgrade the cooling. I now have a custom radiator from Alisport and a 600 * 300 * 100 FMIC. I was careful with ducting, undertray and sealing round the radiator etc. I also have a vented bonnet.
On Friday I got stuck in the goodwood traffic for an hour. Water temp went up from 84 to 85 ! Air temp reached 56. As I got moving again, the air temps were back in the 30\'s before I even got into 5th gear. 30 against an ambient of about 25 seems usual when pottering along on the motorway.
So for the comparison, the stock radiator, intercooler and general shrouding of them is hopeless. Large FMIC\'s do seem to work, despite the concern over blocking the radiator.
Keith
thanks for your insight keith hard facts are very useful i have always thought negatively about front mounts but i am starting to think more positively about them since i have enquired more about them :)
what does your datalogit setup look like out of intrest
I have a PC in the boot, mini-ITX based with windows 2000. This connects to the datalogit box, and the Zeitronix box via serial and USB (can\'t remember which one uses which at the moment!). This means that I can log from the Datalogit, or the Zeitronix.
The Zeitronix has connection to the PFC harness to read RPM and throttle position, plus of course it connects to the wideband, a pressure sensor and an exhaust temp probe.
The Zeitronix wideband output connects to the Datalogit input in order to log AFR on the datalogit. This is key, so that you can log AFR for each map location.
To make it all usable, there is a VGA motorised touch screen and power controller to boot the PC when I turn the radio on (therefore ignition too). The audio out of the PC is connected to the AUX in on the radio to get sound for MP3\'s, sat nav etc. Finally it has a wireless adapter so that the car connects to my home network when I get home. This allows me to transfer logs and maps to my PC indoors and work on map tweeks in the comfort of the study!
Keith
Quote from: kbarehamI have a PC in the boot, mini-ITX based with windows 2000. This connects to the datalogit box, and the Zeitronix box via serial and USB (can\'t remember which one uses which at the moment!). This means that I can log from the Datalogit, or the Zeitronix.
The Zeitronix has connection to the PFC harness to read RPM and throttle position, plus of course it connects to the wideband, a pressure sensor and an exhaust temp probe.
The Zeitronix wideband output connects to the Datalogit input in order to log AFR on the datalogit. This is key, so that you can log AFR for each map location.
To make it all usable, there is a VGA motorised touch screen and power controller to boot the PC when I turn the radio on (therefore ignition too). The audio out of the PC is connected to the AUX in on the radio to get sound for MP3\'s, sat nav etc. Finally it has a wireless adapter so that the car connects to my home network when I get home. This allows me to transfer logs and maps to my PC indoors and work on map tweeks in the comfort of the study!
Keith
mate that is a tidy set up! very jealous :InLove love that amount of things it can display, i know its what you need to see to map etc but impressive to see in a car. i hope to see it at some point, if you dont mind let me know what it all cost so i can begin convincing the mrs :Laugh
Well I\'m new to this big IC thingy..... i fired mine up for the first time tonight to set up the base map idle for the power FC. the car was sat stationery for 30 mins at idle going through all the turn your rear heater on for 10 mins etc. the water temp was hovering around the high 90\'s, but there was no air mooving through anything as there has been no breez here today & it was in the back of our drive (Air temp was probaly 18c here today). My inlet temps maxed out at 26c on the commander, just to compair this I took a look at a mates car with a HKS Vmount set up...... in 10mins his air temps were up to 45c just idleing!!!!
Think my custom V-mount should be fairly effective!!
Jono
do you have any pictures?
Finally got a couple of pics - OK, one day I\'ll clean the car....
ITX PC attached to boot liner
(http://82.151.252.180/pcpics/ITX-PC.jpg)
Motorised touch screen. My usual datalogit watches are on there - AFR, air temp, knock, water temp, speed and RPM
(http://82.151.252.180/pcpics/screen-out.jpg)
I still find a trackball useful, even with the touch screen:
(http://82.151.252.180/pcpics/Ashtray-open.jpg)
Intercooler is 600 * 300 * 100 universal with some brackets welded on:
(http://82.151.252.180/pcpics/Intercooler.jpg)
Aluminium undertray and top tray are sealed to the radiator and intercooler to ensure that the air goes through instead of around them:
(http://82.151.252.180/pcpics/top-tray.jpg)
i hit 82 on my FD at RS4 at the end of the third run, which was a bit of a shock after about 5 degrees above ambient on my FC with a kind of V Mount and W/I. On the way home it wouldnt go below 50. Thats with a Rotechnics SMIC
Hence Monday, it was all ripped out and and now has a V Mount fitted, albeit a small one, i will let you know the differences. I\'m also fitting W/I.
re-posting pics due to server issue\'s :-(
Quote from: nikpWow! I never realised how inefficient the standard intercooler was!
Its not as inefficient as people think , when I first started playing around with my CO2 intercooler spraybar I did some testing with stand alone air temp sensors , I had one before the intercooler and one after ( varified both read the same by testing at the same location before I started , when I nailed my foot to the floor the pre intercooler temp was above 100c ( can\'t remember exactley as it was a while ago ) and the post intercooler was around the 50c mark , not great I know but bear in mind these stock intercoolers are very small , don\'t get a great air feed and do heatsoak pretty bad , most people don\'t realise how hot the air actually gets before the intercooler
Regarding the location of the stock air temp sensor , I did quite a bit of research about relocating it , in the end I came to the conclusion that it is in the correct place , the UIM gets heatsoaked and so heats the air going through it , as airflow gets faster the air will not heat as much , due to the time it takes the sensor to react it will tell the ecu the air is hotter than it really is , this isn\'t a bad thing as the PFC retards ignition when high temps are observed ( not as much as it should , but thats only my personal opinion ) default settings start retartding ignition by 1degree around the 70c mark , I start to retard 3degrees at 60c ( much safer in my opinion ) , I am playing with the idea of sanding off some of the plastic outer of the temp sensor to make it react a little faster as it does react very slowly but I haven\'t decided yet due to the saftey net this provides
Heat shielding the UIM sounds like a good idea however I\'m not sure how effective it will be , but as every bit helps I\'m going to look into this aswell , an idea I was playing with after RS was while queuing for the drag the UIM becomes very heatsoaked so I thought about spraying it with water before a run , might work , might not but I aint gonna find out if I don\'t try
Contact Jonathon_F for a quicker reacting air temp sensor. You will be amazed at how quick the replacement reacts - my tuner was very impressed with the reaction of it.
I\'m hopefully going to be getting some insulation soon - going to check now in fact!
I remember reading about the replacement sensor a while back , my worry would be that it may react too fast and completely take away the saftey net , however I assume in the stock location it will still be affected by the heat of the UIM so would probably read slightly higher than the true temp