After installing lpg on my 1st gen I thought I\'d start this thread to discuss the LPG setups for other rotarys.
I\'m currently running a gas carb setup on the 1st gen using a impco 300a and impco vapouriser. My 12a is tired and I\'m fitting a 13b EGI into the 1st gen in the next month hopefully.
A lot of people have asked me if im going to be doing the same to my FD and I\'ve been doing some heavy research on the setup needed. The big questions at the minute for discussion is if the car is running a microtech setup can you do a hybrid setup just using the microtech. So that the car runs normally on gas off boost and then adds petrol once higher fueling is needed. We already run secondary controllers for additional banks of petrol injectors so the technology may already being used by the higher powered cars ?
Reading threads on Ausrotary alot of the guys are looking into liquid gas injection. This is still in the development stage and nothing is available.
The big thing that is interesting me at the moment is the Stealth GTi setup that uses the original injector postions with the gas being vapourised in the injector with a pressure regulator off the gas tank. It currently is still in testing phase but looks a very good setup for n/a and turbo setups. If this could be controlled by a microtech or pfc then this would be very interesting.
What do other people think about this in the light that super unleaded is teetering on the £1/lt and LPG is around 40p/Lt (near me) and the gas is 110ron and doesn\'t nox the same as petrol in higher boost setups ??
Shaun
Find a system that well give me enough fuel Shaun and i\'m intrested. I\'ve been watching the Ausies playing around with direct injection but no one seems to be there just yet. I\'ve a 85litre fuel tank behind the rear seats which would give ample room for a large gas tank if removed.
Kevin
The petrol system on yours kev is monster, so with gas thats a deffinate challenge !!!
Shaun
The other reason why i bring the stealth gti setup into interest is because i could use an EFI ida setup on my 1st gen then. It would need the electronics to do it but the setup would look very cool and very clean.
The stealth injectors would just plumb into the standard egi intake setup too so that would be a very clean setup too. Wouldn\'t be a big job to hide the regulator and keep a very tidy engine bay. Would just need a microtech on a custom loom to get it to work !
Shaun
If this does get sorted it would be a fab conversion!! I\'m running an LPG set up on the work hilux & the running costs are about £10 a week (normaly nocking up 100miles a week!!) this would also make running a rex (or any turbo car) alot more afordable, although the initial outlay would be a fair bit!!!
Jono
We used to have a member who ran an EGI on gas for a few years and he claimed it went better and gave the equivalent of better MPG as well, sadly the car is no more though.
Rotechnicks in Reading have done a lot of work with Gas on Rotarys in the past.
It was probably a multipoint setup. The biggest question with that is if you need 4 injectors or 8 ?? Half of that system is how they have got the ecu to talk to the electronics module !
Shaun
If the GTI injectors have enough capacity then they could be a go with my set up shaun. It\'ll be intresting to see what sizes they are looking at making.
Kevin
Quote from: Jono FD3I\'m running an LPG set up on the work hilux & the running costs are about £10 a week (normaly nocking up 100miles a week!!)
Jono
I run petrol and get the same fuel consumption !!!!!!!!!!!!!! in the lil 1000 :D :evillaugh :wave :rollin
I\'m very interested in this, then see if you can run it on hydrogen! I know Mazda had some sucess with a RE hydrogen engine...
...But there was a small co in the states that had converted a Corvette to run on Hydrogen stored in high pressure tanks, but then also sold a big solar setup that would make the hydrogen from water :D
It\'s all a bit pie in the sky but for short range and low useage it would be very cool!
I\'ve stuck this as it has the potential to be a very useful thread :wave
Quote from: oldoneI run petrol and get the same fuel consumption !!!!!!!!!!!!!! in the lil 1000 :D :evillaugh :wave :rollin
Not for much longer :D
Cheers fpr the sticky. Thought I\'d start this more to get feelers out on what other people knew and experiences. Im learning with gas and the carb setup i have may not be the best option. The 1st gen may get converted to efi and stealth gti injectors later in the year when they are released.
Shaun
Found the hydrogen link...
http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/
Could be interesting if you car is already running on gas!
Theres an interesting read on rx7club about some guys running hydrogen on test engines. Looks promising, but the equipment is completely different to LPG. The hydrogen is chemically bonded where as LPG is just a tank !
Shaun
Does anyone have any information on running an EGI FC on LPG? its just im getting about 160 miles to a tank and im filling up maybe twice a week to go to and from work. so im spending about 200 - 250 a month on juice :mad:
Blimey this is a bit of a blast from the past ! I\'m running a Egi engine on a Impco Carb with the LPG. Had a lot of trouble finding a manifold for the setup though.
Have a quick look under the threads I\'ve started for info on how I did my 1st gen.
I get about 18mpg on LPG in the 1st gen with a 6 port 13b !
Shaun
A guy on here called jeted was running LPG on his EGi. The EGi\'s are very poor on fuel, but you should be able to get over 200miles from a tank.
What sort of journeys are you doing? How do you drive?
(If this goes too off topic I will split the thread and put this part of it in the 2nd gen section)
I\'d be very interested to see how this comes off. I have a 12AT with a microtec so it could bolt straight on! (providing you dont blow yours up first :Giggle)
The biggest headache with the egi is having the gas pressure control the fueling table.
I\'ve run LPG N/A carb\'d for over 15k miles !
Shaun
40p a litre sounds good to me but free hydrogen sounds even better. The only thing that worries me is technically I won\'t be a petrolhead any more :)
I will keep an eye on this thread. If anyone gets a working LPG/ hydrogen FD with big BHp you will help to free the Rex for daily usage!
Are there less emitions with LPG ? It may help keep the cars on the road in future if the government introduce stricter Mot rules.
Quote from: Waddock;585562Are there less emitions with LPG ? It may help keep the cars on the road in future if the government introduce stricter Mot rules.
Yes they do. The FB has passed without any emissions kit on it. But it is based on an mot for a 23yr old car !
Shaun
What sort of emissions result did you get, whats on the sheet (if you have it handy and dont mind? :)
I understand there will be some sort of emissions from LPG but not the ones they test for, like Co?
Also being that the engines have the OMP that will cause emissions too but guessing these will be trace as the car is static when tested?
Not actually sure !!!
Shaun
Ah no worries mate, cheers :cheers
hi ! i have been using a blow through mixer with dedicated LPG in my FC for a few years now
( since 2006 )
- both with a modded dizzy on a mild port ( with fully custom inlet and TB )
,, and with a microtech running the coils on a 6 port hybrid block with modded turbo inlet manifolds and stock TB
i am using model E convertor, impco 225 mixer and a 65L underfloor tank at the rear
40 L usable litres of LPG ( i get pure propane locally )
at around 62 aussie cents per litre gets me 200 km,,
,,,,,,, almost $25 per 200km
( premium 98 RON unleaded is around $1.30 per litre in comparisons )
of which most FC turbo\'s would happily use 30 L of to get that far
,,,,,,,,so that works out to be nearly $40 per 200 km
and propane has ( lots ) more than 98 RON !!!!
PS
-- no issues with apex seal wear on the mild port with 30 000 km on old already s/h hard seals
and they are remarkably clean inside !!!
PSS
-- here is the standalone EOMP driver i have helped develop
,, so as to give metering options for latter engines with EOMP wanting LPG
The Electronic Oil Metering Pump Controller - And other technical errata.. (http://eomp.info/)
Isn\'t it the easiest for a low modded car to use stock fuel ecu and a sort of direct port piggyback ecu to control the lpg injectors? I\'ve seen some of these setups, works real easy, ignition is done by the stock ecu, when driving on lpg, the stock injector pulses are intercepted and used as a baseline for the lpg ecu, in the lpg you have 3d maps available to finetune the lpg injector duration versus the pertrol injector duration based on some inputs, like rpm, temp.. this way closed loop operation etc all works, the lpg delivery is independant on lpg "rail pressure", as there is a sensor on the rail and the lpg ecu also has a map signal so the total quantity of lpg is unaffected when running boost/vacum
In school we have a project with hydrogen fueling a normal petrol engine, and it seems they\'re using just a motec ecu and lpg injectors (2 per cilminder), high pressure hydrogen tank (so gaseous storage), but liquid or chemical storage are also possibilities
One of the biggest headaches I\'ve found with that is the rotary uses sequential injectors. There is a system on the market that is for the Rx8 that will work and the Rx8 has 3 injectors per rotor on the 231 model !
Another issue is gas pressure, the LPG needs to be at a decent pressure to work with the multi fuel bosch 1600cc injectors. something like 65psi gives you the same performance as 1300cc injectors. However I\'m not sure anybody manufactures a regulator that will flow enough that is lpg certified. The only information I haven\'t found is what pressure the injection vaporisers run at, maybe this would be an option.
Another issue is the system doesn\'t use any pumps at all and a return line is very hard.
Hydrogen is quite hard. There was a really good thread about people trying to get a Stock engine to run on it. Not sure how they got on.
You can run Haltech (with an addon box) and a LINKecu so correct with gas pressure correction in the map. This is what the piggyback boxes do !
Its a definitely interesting project !
Shaun
Any news!?
Back to the top...let\'s get on the gas!:3gears-rh
The other big problem as well is room for the tank. Even if you cut the spare well out there is a support rib in the way of the tank and it wouldn\'t be that big !
I have been busy on another project so haven\'t really done any more investigation. The 13b REW will more likely run on gas once its in the FB :Giggle
Shaun
here is something out of the ordinary i have done for a mate
its a b2000 with a 13b engine with s4 turbo, with LPG
,, using an unusual combination of end plates with some porting and decked out with the single TB manifolds i made for LPG on my rx7
( my rx7 is still LPG mixer,, just using stock manifolds )
genuine examples of b1600 utes with factory 13b where sold in the mid 70\'s in the USA , known as REPU\'s
this one is done with a 12a rx7 front engine bracket and s4 spark side feet welded on to full chassis
here is the first start vid ( with vac and exhaust leaks )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1jl7dXI7Yw
i built and supplied the engine and driveline
and did the rotor conversion and wiring and dizzy mods
also built the turbo and the exhaust system and fitted a chaser/supra intercooler in the passenger fender
this engine is a RESI 6 port,, tall port primary ,, with rx4 rotors
the LPG system is custom plenum, VN TB, impco 225 and model E converter
the dizzy is leading only DFI using bosch BIMS and HEC coils , modded curve and 12at retard pot
after the run-in a s trim baby hybrid turbo was fitted
and without much of a tune ( just stabbed the modded dizzy ) it has made 286 rwhp at 13 psi ( on the little S trim hifi hiflow )
it is returning costs of about $25 per 200 km in LPG fuel
(http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/3226/pic0512422.th.jpg) (http://img528.imageshack.us/i/pic0512422.jpg/)
turbo s5 LIM , custom plenum for single 65 mm TB
port matched to 6 p block
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/9179/pic0512425.th.jpg) (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/pic0512425.jpg/)
(http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/2319/pic0518436.th.jpg) (http://img546.imageshack.us/i/pic0518436.jpg/)
ports and housings
(http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1999/pic0512419.th.jpg) (http://img146.imageshack.us/i/pic0512419.jpg/)
(http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/6344/pic0512417.th.jpg) (http://img705.imageshack.us/i/pic0512417.jpg/)
cross port end plates on the secondary /auxiliary ports
(http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/8923/pic0526442.th.jpg) (http://img268.imageshack.us/i/pic0526442.jpg/)
old anchor
(http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5900/pic0609447.th.jpg) (http://img201.imageshack.us/i/pic0609447.jpg/)
engine mounts
(http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/5782/pic0614450.th.jpg) (http://img718.imageshack.us/i/pic0614450.jpg/)
s5 turbo gearbox mods
(http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7398/pic0708493.th.jpg) (http://img233.imageshack.us/i/pic0708493.jpg/)
engine built and ready to fit
(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4487/pic0719191.th.jpg) (http://img156.imageshack.us/i/pic0719191.jpg/)
engine in
(http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/7170/pic0719190.th.jpg) (http://img251.imageshack.us/i/pic0719190.jpg/)
Awesome!! Thanks for the info...will be doing an LPG converison on my rex this year! :)
Blimey, I\'m running an Impco 305 on mine with a E Vapouriser.
Did something daft with the system over the cold snap and have only just fixed the issue. I plumber the vapouriser into the heater line, but didn\'t realise the heater had a vent. When I was turning the heater to cold it was freezing the vapouriser over, I\'ve just replubed a bypass pipe in so I can run the heater on cold !
Shaun
Our RX8 has been running on gas since 57000 miles, now has 94000 on it with no issues. Did a comp test at the weekend and all looks good. It covered 35000 miles last year so was a cost effective move! It uses an egas 8 cylinder kit and a modified ECU. Phil
Lovely ! Where did they put the tank ? Is it a dual setup or pure gas ?
Shaun
Hi Shaun, it\'s a dual setup. 50l tank in the boot. The reduction in boot space has not really caused an issue. Around 150 miles to a tank which means frequent refills but at around £30 to fill it\'s not a bad saving.
Phil
I run round with only 25lt usable tank, without the petrol setup at all !!! Get 100 mile range !
Makes long journeys interesting, did rotorstock last year in the 1st gen !
Shaun
you\'re a brave man!
Had it like that for over 3yrs now :Giggle
Want a bigger conformal tank from NZ in alloy and get them fit where the fuel tank is !
Shaun