I\'ve got a series 5 89 Turbo II and the setup is;
550cc stock primary and 1680cc secondary fuel injectors,
walbro 255,
apexi S-AFC fuel computer
apexi AVC-R boost controller.
(with a t4 turbo,external wastegate, bov, front mount intercooler)
What I need to know is will the stock ECU allow the injector duty cycle to go high enough (say 85%) to provide enough fuel, or will I need to still spend money or an aftermarket ecu? (and therefore mean that by buying the piggyback Apexi controllers i\'ve wasted money that I could of spent on an aftermarket ecu which can already control all of those aspects?)
(by the way, the reason for the large secondaries is so later I can pump up the boost on my T4 turbo and upgrade to 1000cc primaries and twin walbro 255 set up, and FPR if necessary -400rwhp target)
Stock ECU goes to about 85% on primaries up to 3800 RPM, nothing on secondaries. Then after 3800, Primaries run no higher than 40% and secondaries up to about 85%. If you\'ve put 1600\'s in there, you aren\'t going to have fuel worries (save for the pump being able to supply).
surely the stock ECU cant handle the extra size ??
i thought thats what the SAFC would do - you could up the fueling using that - or down in this case ( thats my plan anyways )
and if the ECU fires a set duty cycle ( for example at 4000 RPM it puts in 50% fuel ) then on 550\'s that would be say 275cc of fuel - but on the 1600 it would be 800cc of fuel - surely it would run REALLLLLLY rich ??
just my opinion - but to be honest i have NO idea ( just thinking outside the box as it would be )
Stu
i run 550 prims and 1680 2nds but with an apexi, i ran 380 rwhp with only 75% duty at stock pressure so you wont need 1000 cc prims. With those 2nds you will have trouble fueling accurately without an aftermarket ecu for the reason grinder mentioned.
Cheers guys, great info.
Quote from: antnicuki run 550 prims and 1680 2nds but with an apexi, i ran 380 rwhp with only 75% duty at stock pressure so you wont need 1000 cc prims. With those 2nds you will have trouble fueling accurately without an aftermarket ecu for the reason grinder mentioned.
That is true, but you can increase or decrease the amount of fuel pumped in for different RPM ranges, so, combined with the apexi boost controller which gives rpm based control of the boost curve I should be able to work it out nicely. e.g. have full boost kicking in around 4000 rpm, and then also increase the fuel pumped in at the same time..
However do you mean that it will cause problems like the primary rotor running lean because the duty has been lowered to stop the secondary flooding -if thats even possible..??
perhaps 4 x 1000cc would be more appropriate for even fuel distr?
Quote from: BenLewisMavperhaps 4 x 1000cc would be more appropriate for even fuel distr?
My understanding is that you\'d want fairly small primaries to simplify control at low revs/low boost as it\'s very hard to control large injectors accurately enough under these circumstances.
Given how prone rotaries can be to flooding I wouldn\'t want the injector equivalent of a firehose as primaries...
IMHO the aftermarket ECU would be your best bet, you\'d still need the boost controller so that wouldn\'t be a waste and then you\' have full control over all issues. If it came to it, you could always sell the S-AFC.
Thing is the ECU options for the FC are quite varied:
Microtech
Wolf 3D
Haltech
Apexi PFC (with the adapter stuff for the FD loom)
to name a few
but you could get yourself sorted on the ECU side for about £600 (or less) then you would have full fueling control.
Strictly speaking, Injector duty should be a function of 3 main variables - RPM, Manifold Pressure (Boost) and Throttle position. There are also other variables like acceleration / deceleration, Water temp, Air temp which also play a part. After market fuel comps or injector controllers only usually look at 2 of these main variables, and none of the secondary factors. This is where an aftermarket ECU will help - as it knows about the other factors and can more correctly control fuelling.
Larger primaries make it more difficult to handle the idle control - as the injectors will hardly be on at all. And you almost certainly want an aftermaket ECU if your not running the stock 550 primaries.
this seems a cheap solution :
http://www.nengun.com/trust-greddy/e-manage-blue
30,000.00 JPY=133.597 GBP
infact i could be tempted by that my self !! LOL
Stu
or this
http://www.nengun.com/trust-greddy/e-manage-ultimate
53,000.00 JPY=235.976 GBP
I guess the S-AFC wasn\'t really designed for Rotaries as you can\'t control the secondary and primary duties individually?
I presume that all of your standalone ECU\'s allow you to do that?
if you look on the USA forum - there is a whole section about the SAFC\'s
i gonna run one on mine ( already bought it ) - but i will only run 720 injectors
you can also control timing and a few other bits with an aftermarket ecu
If you go emanage - go with the ultimate - it\'s had independent primary / seconday injector control and leading / trailing ignition. It will autotune injector replacements up to 850cc\'s, but after that you must adjust the fuel maps manually - but 850\'s all round will see you at 400BHP with the correct induction / turbo / intercooler set up.
By autotune I mean you put the new injector size in the table and click the mouse - the emange will then correctly fuel cut to restore the stock fueling levels based on the increased injector size - how cool is that !:cool
tis very very sexy matey !!
thing with the one that i mentioned - you might need to then get the harness from somewhere else
prof : did yours come with a FC specific harness ?
Quote from: grindertis very very sexy matey !!
thing with the one that i mentioned - you might need to then get the harness from somewhere else
prof : did yours come with a FC specific harness ?
No - But I think boomslang do one. I am going to \'roll my own\' !
Sounds good, I think going the ECU method is the route I shall take, probably more cost effective and definately reduced danger of accidental fiddling equalling destruction...
The only thing that I\'ve had delivered yet is the SAFC, so if I get an ECU with boost control (like the power fc addon) then I could save money probably? To be honest I\'m not really sure why you\'d need a standalone elec. boost controller that you can fiddle with on the fly, if you can\'t change the timing and fueling to match? Seems dangerous, running lean anyone?
I\'m looking at Power FC\'s, but obviously the FC3S is discontinued. Anyone know if anyone is selling them second hand? Or where I could find one for a reasonable price?
Quote from: grinderor this
http://www.nengun.com/trust-greddy/e-manage-ultimate
53,000.00 JPY=235.976 GBP
If you added the full FC wiring harness then it would be £309 inc air freight to your door!:guinness
not bad at all is it
must resist buying toys
and you can use a FD early power fc on the FC ( and the US guys have a special harness that makes it 90% plug and play )
Scarily good... still researching the Fd3s power fc into fc3s conversion (trying to source fd parts needed).
What do you think I should choose? The Power FC is probably a better unit and adjusting/monitoring things on the fly is much nicer, (fd power fc + power commander + boost controller + fd to fc conversion) = £650
but
the emanage system is nice and having an extra toy on the dash (in the form of a boost controller) would be nice. Just reading you can do stuff like flip between maps which is convenient for normal driving then great for racing rudeboy scoobys, although i\'m sure the Power FC allows quick map and boost setting changes.. (e manage ultimate + fc3s harness + decent boost controller) = £560
What would you get and why? I was planning on fitting lots of gauges to obsessively monitor and tweak the setup using my apexi boost and fuel computers, but I guess I could save a bit of money if I just did it all through the Power FC.
I\'d probably only need to get Oil temp, Oil pressure and Air Fuel Ratio gauges (as thats what the power fc doesnt seem to cover/display)[do you think skimping on the gauges is ok considering the Power FC display?I am planning to run 400rwhp)
My Calculations above were *slightly* off, it actually turns out that a Power FC install would be just under a grand!
->> Power FC, total control of boost, timing and fueling
Power FC + commander £350
Boost control kit £130
FD to FC harness adapter kit £123
3 Bar Map Sensor
FD Intake air temp sensor
FD Igniter & connector £100 ish for all three
Mapping £200 (£300 WGT)
Power FC total = £900-£1000 [ouch]
->> Greddy E-Manage Ultimate
E-Manage and Harness £305
Boost Controller £250
Software £50
Wideband Sensor £100
Greddy E-Manage total = £705
Quote from: sadgothIf you added the full FC wiring harness then it would be £309 inc air freight to your door!:guinness
Where do I get an FC3S harness from? Are you refering to the top one listed on the nengun site?
I\'m actually just temped to pay £400 inc delivery and buy complete e manage ultimate kit (harness + ultimate + software), no risk of import tax that way and quick delivery..
Quote from: BenLewisMavMy Calculations above were *slightly* off, it actually turns out that a Power FC install would be just under a grand!
->> Power FC, total control of boost, timing and fueling
Power FC + commander £350
Boost control kit £130
FD to FC harness adapter kit £123
3 Bar Map Sensor
FD Intake air temp sensor
FD Igniter & connector £100 ish for all three
Mapping £200 (£300 WGT)
Power FC total = £900-£1000 [ouch]
->> Greddy E-Manage Ultimate
E-Manage and Harness £305
Boost Controller £250
Software £50
Wideband Sensor £100
Greddy E-Manage total = £705
Where do I get an FC3S harness from? Are you refering to the top one listed on the nengun site?
I\'m actually just temped to pay £400 inc delivery and buy complete e manage ultimate kit (harness + ultimate + software), no risk of import tax that way and quick delivery..
Software for the Emanage Ultimate comes free - not like the old blue one !
dont use the power fc boost control its crap, use the one you have
Quote from: BenLewisMavMy Calculations above were *slightly* off, it actually turns out that a Power FC install would be just under a grand!
->> Power FC, total control of boost, timing and fueling
Power FC + commander £350
Boost control kit £130
FD to FC harness adapter kit £123
3 Bar Map Sensor
FD Intake air temp sensor
FD Igniter & connector £100 ish for all three
Mapping £200 (£300 WGT)
Power FC total = £900-£1000 [ouch]
->> Greddy E-Manage Ultimate
E-Manage and Harness £305
Boost Controller £250
Software £50
Wideband Sensor £100
Greddy E-Manage total = £705
Where do I get an FC3S harness from? Are you refering to the top one listed on the nengun site?
I\'m actually just temped to pay £400 inc delivery and buy complete e manage ultimate kit (harness + ultimate + software), no risk of import tax that way and quick delivery..
you\'ve got the boost controller already haven\'t you? the AFC-R?
Should be a good option. as most people know I have a bias towards the Microtech, but that is because I use one and Tim runs one in the Purple Peril with no problems
you can get a microtech for about £550 in the Uk - so not sure how that comes into your calculations ??
and you have missed mapping off the e-manage - so prob comes out a similar price
I suspect he\'s thinking of mapping the e-manage himself, the microtech is quite easy to map as well...
*EDIT* So to quote and correct myself..
->> Power FC, total control of boost, timing and fueling
Power FC + commander £350
Boost control kit £130
FD to FC harness adapter kit £123
3 Bar Map Sensor
FD Intake air temp sensor
FD Igniter & connector £100 ish for all three
Mapping £200 (£300 WGT)
Power FC total = £900-£1000 [ouch]
->> Greddy E-Manage Ultimate
E-Manage and Harness £305
Boost Controller £250
Wideband Sensor £100 (<< The reason for not including dyno mapping [for the time being] )
Greddy E-Manage total = £655
Also I haven\'t yet paid for the Apexi AVC-R and have been holding off doing so, I\'ve heard mixed reviews about how people have found it doesnt give them the control they want and it\'s too fiddly. Ideally what I want is to use the E-Manage Ultimate and Boost controller together so that the map can adjust as I change the boost. (Without having to get it on the dyno/take it, for example, to a power fc specialist.)
Quote from: sadgothI suspect he\'s thinking of mapping the e-manage himself, the microtech is quite easy to map as well...
Spot on, as its only a piggyback it will allow me to adjust the standard mapping, rather than mapping from scratch.
I also just noticed the Profec E-01 (which I was planning to use with the Ultimate) isn\'t compatible!
Nightmare.
Does anyone know of a way to get it to work? perhaps rewiring correct connectors..? Seems a bit of a kick in the arse for Greddy if their boost controller and ECU don\'t work together :P (unless there\'s one on the way?? perhaps with a colour screen.... ;) Can only hope)
Quote from: BenLewisMavI also just noticed the Profec E-01 (which I was planning to use with the Ultimate) isn\'t compatible!
Nightmare.
Does anyone know of a way to get it to work? perhaps rewiring correct connectors..? Seems a bit of a kick in the arse for Greddy if their boost controller and ECU don\'t work together :P (unless there\'s one on the way?? perhaps with a colour screen.... ;) Can only hope)
It\'s only the serial comms link that you will lose. You can still use the E01 as a boost controller - but there are other cheaper units that are equally good for just that function. You just wont be able to show anything the eManage is doing. :(
Hmm.. shame thats really what I want. Just a central control screen, that can display all of the information that the ecu reads, with warnings for set limits, and edit the maps and control boost, instead of having the dash littered with gauges and control units.. e-01 is (was) the only unit I really know of that can do that.. shame e manage blue doesn\'t support the rotary set up :(
Anybody ever seen this before?;
http://www.ecumapping.co.uk/DTEC_Fuel_and_Boost_Contr-DTECFCBC.asp (http://www.ecumapping.co.uk/DTEC_Fuel_and_Boost_Contr-DTECFCBC.asp)
Awesome idea, if it wasn\'t limited to a single injector set map and could control ignition timing it would be sold..
now thats COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL !!
Actually these games machines make excellent controllers - I have an old Gameboy that\'s now become a dual storage oscilliscope - cheap too !
Just a quick update, got the e-manage ultimate with harness and software off a guy who used it on a DC5 for 280gbp. Can\'t complain.
Now I\'m looking for a nice elec boost controller/sensor display unit, and some form of wideband a/f and knock monitoring tool(s).
Ideally I want to keep things detailed and electronic (ideally not the lots and lots of gauges route).
The new blitz boost controller;
http://www.blitz-uk.co.uk/ProductItem-312.aspx (http://www.blitz-uk.co.uk/ProductItem-312.aspx)
some screens;
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/fastwrx_1943_38460934 (http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/fastwrx_1943_38460934)
Also does A/F ratio at a price.
Another product that caught my eye for tuning;
http://www.hksusa.com/products/?id=1694 (http://www.hksusa.com/products/?id=1694)
HKS knock sensor with intergrated a/f sensor...
Although to be honest its probably more sensible and cost effective to get the LM-1 wideband wired up to my e-manage and a cheap a/f gauge to keep an eye on things during general driving. For cheap knock monitoring theres always the the Knocklite, anyone had any experience with similiar setups?