I\'ve always wanted a 12a engine to take to bits and after a good day at kev_yorks i now have a spare 12a to play with. The engine is a runner and is very clean. There is compression from all faces when i turn the flywheel by hand and the tips look in good condition through the exhaust ports. I\'ve taken all the auxillary bits off the engine today and got an oily floor !!!!
First question is how tight are the front bolt on the oil pump and the flywheel bolt. Am i better off taking them to a garage to get loosened off ?
Will hopefully be stripping the engine over xmas with grinder and then getting it inspected by wgt.
Pictures so far :
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/shaunwil/DSCF0122.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/shaunwil/DSCF0121.jpg)
Shaun
If its the same as the 13b then the flywheel nut will be aprox 280FtLbs :)
cool, PP here you come!!!! It is pretty cool pulling these apart too. I still remember my first....ooooooh,....aaaaaaaaah. Anyway. Fun project ahead.
good luck, michael.
Susssshhhhh the PP is for the engine already in the car if this engine isrebuild able :D
Definately looks like a fun xmas project !!!!
What special tools do i need to break the engine down ?? Investigating getting an engine stand adapter made, but need to measure up and get drawn up in CAD.
Shaun
So how many of these engines does Kev actually have???? didnt he give one to Alban a few months ago?? KEV dont suppose you have any spare 20b stuff do you??? :)
Cant remember actually needing any special tools but that was just me pulling engines down on the driveway! not especially proffessional.
you can make an adpator that locks the flywheel onto the engine - so that you can get the nut off
failing that - a 8 foot breaker bar :D
Kev had 3 engines, ones gone in alans turbo, ones gone to me :D and the other was stripped by kev (i think). He bought them as a job lot !
Going to draw up some 5mm plate and give my old boss a call !
Shaun
Shall be watching with interest.........:D :cool
I cracked the flywheel nut off with a long breaker bar (probably about the length Grinder said!) Must anchor the engine else your effort goes in the wrong place!
Other than that it\'s just regular tools untill you come to check the tolerence\'s. :)
Good luck :cool
i will be helping Shaun strip this
i think he got bored of waiting for me to do mine - so he got his own !!
looks like an exciting xmas ahead :D
Quote from: grinderi will be helping Shaun strip this
i think he got bored of waiting for me to do mine - so he got his own !!
looks like an exciting xmas ahead :D
Only takes 15minutes to strip it,what you going to do after that ??????????:D
Keep the picture\'s coming! :cool
Quote from: grinderyou can make an adpator that locks the flywheel onto the engine - so that you can get the nut off
failing that - a 8 foot breaker bar :D
Here\'s my "adaptor" and "breaker bar" :rollin
(http://www.kiwirotary.com/aotearotor/img/rebuild/elf/elf21.jpg)
Thats how I got mine off but I snapped the nut!
thats just wrong!!!!!
that poor engine!
i borrowed an electric nut gun, that does the trick in seconds everytime.
no special tools needed to pull it, just do slowly and carefully otherwise all the bits go everywhere and you learn more.
Cheers, The 19mm nut on the opposite side seems to be tight as well. I was stripping the engine with a Air Impact gun and the thing didn\'t want to budge ! Looks like i\'ll be popping to local garage, they are 1 min walk away.
Shaun
Quote from: oldoneOnly takes 15minutes to strip it,what you going to do after that ??????????:D
Break engine down, box it up and take to wgt for inspection of rotors and housings and irons then have it ported (not sure what port yet, large street of half bridge) then clean-up, paint in a bee-sting colour scheme, then install in car !
Then I\'ll have a mad play with the engine thats now in the car :D Thinking doing a home made PP with it doweled and setup for maybe upto 10k rev :D
Shaun
Quote from: shaunwilCheers, The 19mm nut on the opposite side seems to be tight as well. I was stripping the engine with a Air Impact gun and the thing didn\'t want to budge ! Looks like i\'ll be popping to local garage, they are 1 min walk away.
Shaun
The front pulley nut? Lock the flywheel and it\'ll come off with normal hand tools.
Quote from: shaunwilBreak engine down, box it up and take to wgt for inspection of rotors and housings and irons then have it ported (not sure what port yet, large street of half bridge) then clean-up, paint in a bee-sting colour scheme, then install in car !
Then I\'ll have a mad play with the engine thats now in the car :D Thinking doing a home made PP with it doweled and setup for maybe upto 10k rev :D
Shaun
:cool :evillaugh :Giggle ;) :InLove :cheers
Do the home made PP, that would be awesome!!
Thats a side project, I think have access to all the tools to do the job, but it will be a long term project and i will be trying to do it on the cheap (make all the parts myself)
Shaun
Plus if i do it will be running on LPG too !!!!!
Shaun
:Santa
it wont smell right!
i find breaker bars the best route....and a little heat if needs be. Works every time ;)
what are you trying steve!!!! it needed 2 of us!! although i got mine off by myself....guess im just harder :)
no. you had the proper (i.e. my) tools. anybody could have stood on the motor man. I did the hard work. at least the flywheel came off once i had the nut off ;)
:WaveBye
Front pulley nut is no where near as tight as the FD ones,it should come off fairly easily if you put the flywheel back on,lock it and then use a long bar on the 19mm.
Then take the flywheel off after,it is much easier that way around.
Regards
Carl
i have the correct size socket and 3/4"dia breaker bar that will not bend, also a piece of angle iron with holes drilled for flywheel to g clamp onto the bench or screw into the floor, I put a 4 foot tube on the breaker bar and crack them of with 1 hand,
come and pick it up if u need it mate im only in oldham, its all sat here.
stu
07762331845
i have jig i made [flywheel puller] as well by the way
borrow my home made engine stand as well if u want
oooh cheers, may take you up on the offer :D
May sort the engine stand out though as it may be sat on it for quite some time.
Shaun
Cool, think its about time I did an engine rebuild myself. Having sold the rx7 I need a new fix and a 12a/13b rebuild would be a cool project. Then a few years down the line when I have the time, space and money for another 1st gen, i\'ll have a racey little engine to drop in. Think its time I invested in a shed in the garden so I can start tinkering with rotors, dont need much space I guess.
Shaun, are you using the DIY RE dvd\'s or any books etc to help with this project or do you know enough about the engines to just go for it?
Er up to now i\'ve not got any dvd or material for the rebuild, Pineapple Racing are doing videos on their webiste at the minute and i\'ll probably buy the DIYRE dvds after xmas.
I\'ve got the factory manual and that does explain how to rebuild an engine. No doubt i\'ll be full of questions in this thread.
Shaun
Nice one. I\'ll enjoy learning from your mistakes :Giggle sorry from your experience :cheers
Na seriously, good stuff for posting up the rebuild work. Has inspired me to get going on a rebuild. The good thing about having a heap of time to do it is that I can spread the £££$$$. Hardest decision for me will be injection or carb, but lets not start that debate :chat
R u gonna do the porting yourself? Would be much more satisfying if you did. I\'m sure there are plenty of knackered old housings available for you to practice on.
If you could keep tabs on rough costs as you progress that would be really helpful.
Cheers
Dom
No problem. The housing and rotors hopefully will be checked by WGT and then im leaving it to pip to decide what port will suit what im using the car for.
My biggest decision too is 48IDA webber or gas research carb.
The current engine in the car will be a test bed for a seriously big port, but thats for the future :D
Shaun
Yesturday I got an engine stand and started prepairing the engine for the strip down. Ended up lengthening the slots and grinding the edge of the main plate to bolt the engine too. Ended up having to chisel the flywheel off, only did it in one spot so hopefully it will be salvagable.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/shaunwil/12a%20Rebuild/DSCF0124.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/shaunwil/12a%20Rebuild/DSCF0126.jpg)
With the aid of stu (grinder) I started by removing the oil pan. Then using a 2in wide scraperand hammer i removed the gunk holding the pan onto the bottom of the engine. Cleaning the cavity up gave us this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/shaunwil/12a%20Rebuild/DSCF0128.jpg)
Then we drained away any excess oil and swiveled the engine over to the main bolts:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/shaunwil/12a%20Rebuild/DSCF0130.jpg)
Removing these bolts moving in quadrants and then pulling all the bolts out.
Using a small crowbar to lift the top plate (on parts that arn\'t mating faces) the top iron was lifted off.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/shaunwil/12a%20Rebuild/DSCF0131.jpg)
Then lifting the rear rotor out (with all the seals falling out of rotor). Then carefully prising the housing off to reveal middle Iron.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/shaunwil/12a%20Rebuild/DSCF0133.jpg)
From here we had a bit of an issue. When we tried to remove the middle iron we could work out how the e-shaft came out. We lifted the middle iron and the front rotor all in one peice. Then removing the housing. It was then turned over to attack the oil pump housing. Removing the bolts and masaging the housing off with a wooden mallet to reveal this.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/shaunwil/12a%20Rebuild/DSCF0134.jpg)
Some bits where removed to reveal this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/shaunwil/12a%20Rebuild/DSCF0136.jpg)
Then we where left with the e-shaft in the middle housing. The big question is how the he** does this come out ??? Is the e-shaft in 2 peices ??
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/shaunwil/12a%20Rebuild/DSCF0135.jpg)
Then onto the inspection of the housing. The chrome looks seriously worn out and I will some good advice on if they are usable.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/shaunwil/12a%20Rebuild/DSCF0137.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/shaunwil/12a%20Rebuild/DSCF0138.jpg)
All in all a good afternoon, very enjoyable and hopefully it will not need much to go back together. Big thanks to Stu, nice to have him here while we had a fun afternoon !
Shaun
thanks for inviting me - you learn a lot about them - just by seeing the parts in the flesh !
cant wait to put it back together , remove your engine and drop that one in
fun times ahead :D :D :D
good work gents, it is very satisfying
i wonder if its the picture, but those exhaust ports look bigger than stock.....
Well i\'ve worked out the e-shaft !!! Its a case of lifting and angling the middle iron over the s-shaft and then it comes ok reasonably easily.
Shaun
the front plate should be bolted to stand to fully disasemble the motor.to get e shaft out of middle plate u should leave 1 bolt in stationary gear in the front plate, point the shaft journal to 12 0 clock position and get someone to lift the e shaft up 1" and lift and tilt the plate of the eshaft.
I did it the same way as u on my first time then got the bruce terantine vid which shows u how to do all the nigly bits and stops all the head scratching!!
Im not too sure about the ports, they don\'t look like they have been opened out by hand. How big are the ports on a standard 12a ?
Shaun
really good to see this, i have a 12a in the garage that was a runner but often thought about giving it a re-build this would really help if it came to that
Mark
You just slide the housings over the eccetric shaft. A little bit of jiggling required. Those rotors look a tad oiled up. Exhaust ports look standard to me.
Quick update. Cleaned the rotors up with parafin and a stainless hand brush, removed all the seals and springs and clips. Everything is bagged up awaiting inspection. Will be ringing pip at wgt tomorrow !
Shaun
Good progress.
Let the porting commence :yes
Another Update and its not a good one :(
Been to wgt for a quick inspection and the housings are junk (already knew this from the loss of chrome) and the rotors are junk too (the groove is too big for the tips). I could rebuild the engine with new parts but it isn\'t really finacially viable.
On a good point i now have quite a few spares and will probably rebuild my spare nikki carb to try and improve my mpg.
Plus i now hae 2 spare gearboxs, a spare alternator and a cleaner airfilter holder :)
I may rebuild the block just for some practice but it will never fire again !
Probably the option for next year is to buy an 2nd gen egi engine and rebuild and port that and run it on a carb !
Thanks for the interest though !
Shaun
On a positive note, you now have 2 rotor housings and a set of end plates to practice cutting a big bridge port and enlarging the exhaust ports. Out with the dremel drill then :cheers You could then make a coffee table from the housings :Giggle
Sorry to hear the engine\'s no good though.... arse!
Thats a dam shame sorry to hear that :(
Quote from: shaunwilthe rotors are junk too (the groove is too big for the tips). I could rebuild the engine with new parts but it isn\'t really finacially viable.
Not sure If I read that correctly but could you get away with using 3mm Apex seals and having the rotor machined?
Thats not even an option, the 12a has 3mm seals as standard :(
Shame nobody makes 3.5 or 4mm tips for the 12a !
I think the only option some time next year is to get a 13b (or a renesis on the cheap) and run it on a carb !!!!
Not to worry, still have quite a few bits that are spare so its not all bad !
Shaun
Quote from: shaunwilThats not even an option, the 12a has 3mm seals as standard :(
Wow - you learn something new every day :) - cheers for that :)
me too..........................
I think I\'m better off with a 13b with maybe a longer diff for fuel economy !
Shaun
ive got 2 fd rotors with worn apex grooves that can be machined out to 3mm, dont know if they weigh the same as 12a rotors, also they maybe different compresion,
cheaper than buying knew if it can be done
a 12A with 13B rotors, nice! :Giggle
FD ones are a wee bit wider than the fb ones. About 10mm a piece IIRC?
Why not try to get it back together, all the seals etc and not try to get it running on a stand? You ahve a spare box etc? Just need a battery, some coils? It will help you to understand end float etc.
I\'ll probably rebuild it without any seals and have some practice with it. Thanks for the offer of the 13b rotors but there is just too much wrong with this engine even if the rotors where ok.
Anybody know anywhere a good egi engine is going cheap ???
Plus just how much do the renisis engines go for at salvage yards ?? Would be cool to run one of them on a carb !
Shaun
I did see a renesis engine on e-bay a few weeks ago for £1500! but it was in shetland, or orkney, memory a bit frazzeled after too much christmas cheer!!
Quote from: shaunwilI\'ll probably rebuild it without any seals and have some practice with it. Thanks for the offer of the 13b rotors but there is just too much wrong with this engine even if the rotors where ok.
Anybody know anywhere a good egi engine is going cheap ???
Plus just how much do the renisis engines go for at salvage yards ?? Would be cool to run one of them on a carb !
Shaun
Was considering a renesis transplant a while back when I had some expendable income :( Not as easy or as cheap a transplant as you\'d imagine from what I\'ve heard but fitting a carb would get around a lot of the fuelling technicalities. If you\'ve got the time and the money though then go for it, would be awesome. Think Ray has a Renesis block for sale for not much.
sounds like an interesting project !
Will pm ray and ask about it !
Shaun
Quote from: shaunwilsounds like an interesting project !
Will pm ray and ask about it !
Shaun
Would indeed be a good project, go for it Shaun :cool :Thumbsup!
From memory, think the block had a small water leak but nothing else major and LOW miles.
Had a chat to ray and there may (i say may) be a possibility that will become the project for the 1st gen :D
Shaun
Defo worth a chat with Pip, Tim, and maybe some of the rx8 crew to do some sums and weigh up the issues. Apparently there\'s a thread on a renesis 1st gen conversion on another forum but I\'ve never found it.
Hope you decide to go for it! Cool to do something really different....
Food for thought:
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=600057&page=2&pp=15&highlight=rx8
Shaun
really sorry to hear about the engine matey
we need to strip mine then and see what its like - could be a donor :D
Good point :D
Pip said he hadn\'t seen any 12a engines that didn\'t have at least scrap rotors. Even if just the rotors where shot it was too expensive to rebuild !
The engine in the 1st gen is actually in very good condition, it starts up straight away and fires straight away when hot !
Shaun
just outta interest how do new 12a rotors cost? if new ones are available that is.. and housings?
Shaun your PM box is full.
Kevin
oops, just emptied it !
Rotors are about 260+vat each, housings are about the same from pip.
Shaun
new? i heard that new stock 12 a housings etc have dried up. is this true or a scary rumour?
don\'t really know, that was the price pip quoted me. I think I\'d end up playing with a 13b before buying new bits.
Shaun
Have you spoken to Tim or Matt at Rx Motors? They seem to have alot of Good second hand bits available?
I haven\'t, I\'ve just put it on the back burner till the cars running on LPG.
May give them a shout !
Cheers
Shaun