Ok, Time to make myself look a complete Noob but a mixture of Flu and Anger is driving me to ask for help/Sugestions.
Basicly i\'ve just rebuilt a stock motor with Twin Turbo\'s etc, the Problem is i felt like S**t when i was building it up and my head was in the Clouds some where.
Anyway I fitted it and all went well until i started it, first off it would\'nt idle under 1500rpm (just stalled), its running REALY rich so it keeps flooding.
So i spent all day Yesterday checking all the vac pipes are correct and every thing is Plugged in, Today i checked the ECU error Codes (handy its still got a Stock ecu) that was showing an ECU fault (the Light stayed on) so i did a bit of reading and Found it was becouse it had a Bad earth, so i ran a Jump lead from the Battery to the Case of the ECU, Now when i check the Error code it Flashes Once quick and goes off (which is suposed to be Good).
So i try starting it and its So flooded it won\'t even Splutter, so i will need to tow it tomorow to get it to even Fire.
So i\'m now searching like mad to see what would cause it to Run Mega Rich and not Idle. The Rich bit is easy... Every thing (if there is any Sensor fault it will go into limp mode and run rich) but this does\'nt explain the lack of idle.
So i\'m now thinking have i fixed it (Bad earth to the ECU?? Maybe??) or have i dun some thing like plug the Crank angle Sensors in the wrong way round or maybe gto some thing wet that should\'nt be when i\'ve cleaned the parts up.
I can\'t belive i\'ve done this, Its not my First rebuild and i usaly have a Good memory for putting stuff back, plus 90% of the Plugs etc will only go one place?
Anyway i have a headache and i\'m not feeling to well at all so i\'m going to Crash.
Just for the people that find they have a Fault and want to check there stock ECU.
You need this http://www.fd3s.net/engine_codes.html and Down load this http://www.wrex-racing.com/html/fd/...shop_manual.zip
And this is the Vacuum assembly
I\'d get it bumped first and run it for 15mins and then see what it was like. With the crank sensor plugs the wrong way ropund it wont even start.
Not at all or Badly? You see if it is Somthing major i don\'t want to put load on it i.e. Drive it, i\'ll bump it to get it going tomorow but i\'ll tow it back after it starts.. TBH in the begining it sounded like it was bad Timing but now its run a bit and cleared all the vasline etc out it runs ok just Very rich and Idles bad. I know whats coming next, But i have come tested it three times and its always been even and above 8 bar so its not a Comp issue.
map sensor?
vac leak ?
is the throttle cable jammed?
Temp sensor? - it may be in warm-up mode.
Does sound like a map sensor fault. They run horrible if its not connected or leaking !
Shaun
Defo not, Air leak,Throttle cable. I\'ve spent a Day checking all the Pipes etc and even had a Third party go over it with the vac pipe Diagram to no Avail.
70% sure its not the Map (i swapped it onto my Fd and it worked ok) But you never know. I might check it with a Multi meter tomorow.
I\'m starting to think its some thing like a temp sender myself even though it does\'nt come up on the Fault codes?, I\'ve sorted the ECU earth problem but i\'ve not been able to get it start to see if that was to blame but i\'m being told that would\'nt make it run Rich (it would\'nt run?)
I think its going to be some think i\'ve done, i realy have been on Auto Pilot the last few days (Feel realy ill)
Do you think i need the TPS setting up?
Maybe this is Two faults thats throwing me? If the TPS is out and i have a Sensor down it will be on Limp mode, that it will explain the Engine stall? But i\'ve never rebuilt a Motor and needed to set it up? its not like i ajusted the Throttles?
Duno Grasping at Straws.
the FD has a much simpler TPS than the FC set up so is unlikely to be that, it does sound like a map sensor issue but you say you have checked that.
Could it be something to do with fuel lines or injecotr wires, if you have the 850s running not the 550s it would run rich, also, if your FPR isnt working properly the fuel pressure may be higher which again would make it run rich.
Does it have an air pump? mine ran rich when the air pump wasnt plugged in.
Just a few thoughts.
I\'ll check the map sensor properly tomorow but as i say i had my FD running ok off it so i\'m 80% sure its not that.
I have the air pump on but not plugged in, Mainly becouse it has\'nt got Filters on yet and the Air pump makes an Unholly racket.
I defo have the Injectors the correct way round and plugged in correctly, that one of the things i checked.
Out of intrest, if the Map sensor is not playing ball and i pull the vac pipe off it when its running will it make any diffrence?
as soon as you pull the pipe off it will not read vacume and think you are creating boost so adds fuel and runs like sh1t.
Might be worth checking your fuel pressure at idle, maybe that the pump is flat out as iirc they are 2 stage, and they slow down for idl to reduce pressure and emmissions.
Bit of an Update, Well it seems a bit more Serious than i thought.
Spent all morning checking all the sensors where working properly and stuff like Plug leads where the Correct way round etc.
Anyway long story short, I decided to tow it Round the Block as it was Proper Flooded. First time round it was Poping and missing as you would expect, Next time round it started to act like the engine was getting Tighter as it warmed up a bit?? so i stoped and Turned it over by Hand and there was a Loud noise (sounds like a Dry bearing). So at this point i took the Air pump and PS belt off (put the Decat Pulleys on with new water pump belt) and tried it again, Exactly the same (Goes tighter and makes a dry bearing noise).
My first thought was S**t i\'ve forgot to put the Key in the Crank for the Oil pump drive (But if i take the Pulley of the front of the engine i can see it in place. The only other thing Oil related i\'ve not checked is the OMP pump? But i can\'t see how that would make the engine go tight?
Anyway at this point i was one step of Cutting my Rists so i\'ve put it away. I\'m not sure what on earth is going on now but when it being towed (poping and Banging) there was Blue smoke coming out the back and there seems so be oil being pumped round.
Anyway what ever i\'ve missed or done i\'ve got a real Problem.
sorry to hear that chris
im sure you will get it going :D
I\'m not best happy at the moment, i\'ve had problems with Rx7\'ns before but nothing this terminal that has been a result of me putting some thing back wrong or some thing like that. I really don\'t need to be taking it out and restrip it, not only do i not have the money for it right now it makes me feel sick thinking that i caused this in the first place.
The only thing i can think of that would cause an engine to Tighten up is Oil starvation but i\'ve just had a look at it and i can now turn it over by hand of the Front Pulley??
i feel your pain matey !!
although my cab isnt asbad as yours - its when you spend 50hrs on it and its still not running - it gets very annoying
like you said to me "take a few days away from it and see what you come up with " :D
(A) so if you leave it to stand then it turns over fine by hand
(B) if you try and start it / tow it then it gets stiff
humm very interesting
you mention the OMP pump - is this controlled by the engine or from the ECU ( no idea with FD\'s to be honest )
is this pumping mammoth amounts of oil in when you are trying to start it - hence the blue smoke and it getting silly high compression figures ( ie very tight engine ) - but when you turn it by hand its not pumping so its turns freeely
i have no idea what im on about really - just thinking outside the box :D
Stu
I\'ve just been thinking and i fitted new Braided OMP hoses on it, i\'m just woundering if its Air locked or some thing daft like that??
you never know chris
can you take it off and put the stock one back on ?
or remove one end and see if oil is getting thru ( or too much infact )
i know that on the FC you could test them - it would pump something like 5mm a minute - can you check this ??
im presuming its a pain to get to ???
the OMP is mentioned in the FSM under "difficulty of starting"
Well i have defo got Oil presure and oil is being pumped round becouse i\'ve just turned it over with the Oil Presure switch out.
There is Oil at the bottom of the OMP lines so there must be some sort of flow (i\'ve also dumped a load of 2 stroke oil in the Fuel now)
O how i love this car.
Has anyone had an OMP Fail on them on there FD?
What where the symptoms?
I\'m just doing a bit of home work to see if i can find out how to test it?
there is a way of testing the connectors in the FSM - but not how to physically check that its working as it should
The Noise is coming from the Front cover/Puller area?
Quote from: grinderthere is a way of testing the connectors in the FSM - but not how to physically check that its working as it should
Yep, Swap the one of my Other Fd onto this one :)
I\'m now thinking along the lines i\'ve oviously messed this up so just pull it again and strip it and start again.
I just realy don\'t want to spend all the time and Effort to find its not that. I would love to know what it was so i could 100% fix it.
It might be the thrust bearing or the way you have put it back together, since it is a bit of a pain to remeber when you dont have the FSM in your hand.
Hi Grizzly,
Hats off mate for doing all this yourself as always! :)
My comments/suggestions, based on what I have read.
How long has the engine actually run for? are we talking minutes or hours? If it is minutes, and a new rebuild - expect smoke for quite a while initially. I found in the past that the car had to be taken for a good run before the smoke actually cleared (did you use much vaseline etc.? to hold seals in when putting together?).
Just go back to basics with the block itself, I\'m not sure how long you have managed to get the engine running for? but have you checked plug condition? also - on turning over with the 2 trailing plugs out - does the compression sound ok? i.e. good consisent psh psh psh psh psh psh ? Saying all of that, could a spring/seal be stuck?
EDIT: Can you do a visual inspection through the leading plug hole with a mirror and a torch to see if the apex seals/rotors look ok? [/EDIT]
On an engine I had rebuilt in the past (with a carbie) it didn\'t run right initially - as I believe one of the apex seals were stuck, but it freed itself up ok and ran fine for quite a while after.
I personally think that not having the OMP connected and for only running for a few mins. it won\'t cause any major damage as there would be lubrication in the housing itself from fuel (at only low rpms and running for a few mins it should be ok).
Oil pressure is ok you have mentioned?
So when you turn it over by hand, you are getting a grinding noise? can you pinpoint where it is coming from?
Injectors cleaned and flowed?
Temps ok?
Timing light on it to check it is firing ok? if you can get it to idle etc.
Let us know on some of the above, I\'ll try and help some more.
Obvious thing from reading the first post is to check all the fuel system completely.
Voltage reading to fuel pump, delivery lines all clean and unblocked, injectors thouroughly checked.
Can\'t think what would cause "tightness", unless it was oil starvation or a busted bearing perhaps on the eccentric shaft. apologies for noob observations.
commiserations for the suicidal thoughts..
were your plates lapped at all when you had the engine apart? are they square with the bearings?
Thanks for the replys guys.
I supose there was always one that was going to go wrong in a Big way :(
I have spent nearly four days now on it the Things i can 100% say are sound are as follows....
Engine was Built using Genuine Gasket set and seals (apart from Apex\'s that are Atkins)
It was WELL vaselined up before assembly and is all withing Tolarance, (the main Bolts are slightly over torqued as i presure tested the Block before Assembly and tighened it until there was no leakage at all)
It was Comp tested the second i had a Problem with it starting (8.1-8.3 on all faces of both rotors) i\'ve done this a few times now and only when its realy flooded does the Reading change.
New Oil pump, Chain and Regulator.
I get good oil presure on the Gauge inside and i turned it over a few times with the Oil presure switch out and even at Cranking speed there was a fair bit of Presure. (but saying that its acting like its run off the Vasaline and is getting tighter)
Injectors are Cleaned and flowed
Good Fuel Presure at the rail
Defusers and Seals are good under the Injectors
No air leaks, All the vac pipes have been redone and are 100% correct (checked 4 times now once by a Third party armed with a Vac Diagram)
Air and Water Temp sensors have been Checked Manualy (as the ECU is still stock also checked the fault codes and not come back with any at all so i would say the Loom is also good)
New Plugs and leads
New oil and Filter
New OMP braided Lines (which i did think may not be filled with oil properly as i took one off and next to no oil came out) Maybe air locked????
As it stands at the moment i can turn the engine over by hand with the Plugs out but it feels tighter then when it was first assembled, when i towed it (when it fired abit and was warm) i could\'nt turn it with a Smallish rachet on the front pulley.
As for the lapping theory, i would have thought it should have gone tight when it was assembled? also only one of the Plates (the rear) was lapped.
Which brings me onto the Noise, when its cold the Noise sounds like a Rubber seal with no oil on it (high Piched squeek, not very loud and not all the time) when its warm it has the same Noise but its Louder and more easly placed (Front cover area, around the Bottom pulley), I allso took both belts off to make sure it was\'nt anything like Waterpump or Alt etc. Defo from the Front cover Area. I would say its almost like there is no oil getting around?
TBH, At this point in the game i\'m not going to risk any more damage.
SO.... Planning to take it back out on Saturday and give it a GOOD going over, i will be sick if it Turns out to be something Dumb like a woodruf key missing from the Oil pump or some thing like that.
Its giving all the signs of oil Starvation so thats some thing i can\'t sort without it being on the garage floor.
Chris,
the oil metering pump failing wont cause this problem. Cars will run for wuite a long time without OMP or premix as a few people have forgotten.
Firstly, do you know the condition of the engine you rebuilt?, has it been run dry of oil or over heated, it may be the shaft is warped slightly.
The other thing is, are your needle bearings definately on the spacer collar on the front of the shaft, if you have tipped the engin forward without the front hub bolt, they may have slipped off, this will cause a grinding noise. Although it wouldnt cause it to run rich and stall unless its really tight.
Sh!t! Sorry to hear that bud! I feel for you. Id love to help out but i not that technical :o Hope you get it sorted soon buddy :Thumbs-up
What it feels like is its not getting proper oil supply.
The condition of the Engine was Good, It had not been over heated (check the Glaze on the bottom of the Rotor Housings and the plates where Flat).
The Thrust bearing should be OK, the only time they may have moved is Today after all this happened, as i say its not my First Rebuild and i spent most of my Time on the End play so i\'d lay money on they where sat correctly (not too sure now as i\'ve removed the Pulley bolt today)
Also its more of a squeek than a grinding noise.
Quote from: RixioSh!t! Sorry to hear that bud! I feel for you. Id love to help out but i not that technical :o Hope you get it sorted soon buddy :Thumbs-up
Don\'t you worrie i\'ll sort it, I\'m just Sick i\'ve done some thing NOOBish!!! When i finish Kicking myself and get my act together i\'ll sort it.
My own Dumb fault 1. letting a Dumb ass work on it (ME) and 2. not getting Adult Supervision.
I hope it Turns out to be some thing thats just Failed, its a learning Curve and i kind of know my way around it better now but man i do some dumb things at times.
if you needed adult supervision - you should have given me a shout :D
you know i like to get my hands dirty and help out :D ( aswell as learning hell of a lot from you !! )
Stu
Well i found why its running rich, Fuel Temp and Water temp the wrong way round, But it does\'nt explain why it goes tight. I have two theorys, the first is it was so Flooded it Hydro locked?? (possable but i did\'nt think it was that flooded) the other which is more likly is that i got the Spacers mixed up after i set the End flote up? (i did have alot of them knocking around at the time) Thats Possable, But is that what happens when its Set too tight? Its possable the Thrust bearing may have been damaged or Crushed when everything expanded and it causing the Noise?
I should know 100% on sat when it comes out again.
or i\'ve put the the Chamfered Washer on upside down.