Mazda Rotary Club

I know thats a dramatic heading but I did it to catch your eye.

Right, pulled together here is all the posts that can be found that try to explain the problem etc.


 
Most alarms seem to cut in to the 12v supply line which feeds the ignition.

The alarm may well be off, but the original wires are still cut in to and go through the alarm system.

Several times I\'ve had cars that run fine on the dyno up to a certain rev / load point, and then the ignition suddenly starts missing.

Shove a direct 12v feed to the ignition from the battery and the miss goes.

Alarms are a very real problem on many FD\'s I\'ve tuned.

Good luck sorting your engine Richard

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 cjr

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Not sure where running lean has come from. The alarm wiring CAN cause the coils to break down and therefore not fire the spark to the plugs. Generaly this is found cars running over 300 rwhp. Also we need to remember that all the ancillarys on our engines are mostly 12+ years old!
 
  #27       IP: 82.1.224.95

12th July 2006, 11:16 PM
 

 stuart wizy

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so the origanal wire from ignition barrel to coil pack is snipped, joined to the alarm wiring and then back to the origanl wiring?
It makes sense then going from purposfull high ampage wire going down to door bell type wire and then back to high ampage wire!
the coil pack will require a high current for a good spark, and it wont get it through bell wire!!
if some alarms are wired like this then it does make sense when the engine needs a strong spark at high power
 

 stuart wizy

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back in my old pushrod n/a engine days with carburetors, a weak spark would make the engine pink and overheat, run the carb to rich and it would pink and overheat after a drive, this pinking on a turbocharged engine is detonation.
Its the same principle
 

 iaint

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My Clifford alarm allegedly disables the car via 4 different points. Something like Fuel pump, coils, injectors and something else! I can certainly see ho there could be problems from a 1mm wire vs a 4mm wire.

As for members and guests calling Max a liar in his recounting of his EXPERIENCES mapping many FDs - please back this up with something concrete.

I\'ve known Max since I first got my FD and he\'s one of the most decent blokes I\'ve had the pleaseure of meeting in the scene (and there are a lot of decent people around here). I don\'t believe he\'s dishonest or prone to exaggeration and would take what he says about this as a likely issue. Well worth keeping in view when modding our cars.

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 antnicuk

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BlitzBoy

Hopefully only the the tips need replacing, cant see why the housings will need to be changed if changed recently.

Anyway we dont know the real cause until the engine is stripped.
One failure I had was where the oil injection on the rear rotor failed and caused the tips to warp and lead to loss in compression, intially I though it was det that caused it but I was wrong , so fingers crossed for you mate that only your tips need replacing
 



if it did detonate it may have caused damage to the housings as the tip makes it way of the engine, and it may damage the turbo also.

I had an engine fail for exactly the same reason, oil injection failed and jammed a tip....

I\'m afraid pulling the engine apart is unlikely to show what killed it, if it detonated it could be for so many reasons, coils, plugs, injectors, vacume pipe, map sensor, air temp sensor, too much boost, cheap fuel, wastegate, boost controller. Unless while stripping it you find a pipe to the wastegate off or something as obvious, then you wont find out what caused it, but Richard needs to check all h can before he justs rebuilds it to ensure it doesnt happen again.

As for the alarm, its seems quite straight forward to me, all new alarm wiring i have seen is very thin, but this may not be the only problem, the alarm box that cuts the power to the coils also makes the connection to enable them to work, if this connection is made through a small circuit board then it just wont carry the current. It should be run through a decent relay.

We all know RX7s need massive ignition current compared with other cars, the stock FD ignition needs uprating over about 1 bar (generally). If your car runs rich then it will get hotter, you can see the EGT\'s go through the roof if the car is running rich and the turbo will glow red more than usual.

On the 20b FD the ignition was failing at higher boost on the rollers, so ReWorx replaced the wiring on the alarm to the coils to cure it. That is a brand new clifford.

It is so easy to kill a rotary engine running high boost, if you were building an engine would you give a warranty when the owner wants it as fast as possible and there is little knob on the boost controller next to the stereo that will tweak the boost just a little cos they think it will make it go faster and cant make that much difference............... these things arnt like a piston engine, there is no margin for error. Any changes at all to my car, and i have mapped,

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 CraigN

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As someone said the badboy clifford alarms can cut sometimes upto 4 different circuits on a vehicle to imobilise it.

The fuel pump is one i have allways asked never to have done. On my cosworth and my FD i have used a simple 4 way relay and
my own wiring and i rewired my fuel pump straight to the battery with the relay wired to the standard fuel pump wiring just to switch on the system.

I like 14v @ My fuel pump at all times previous experience with the cosworth has proved this.

Thatcham Cat1 regulations state that a circuit has to have 30cm of wire removed (or the distance between the points the alarm attatches to the circuit has to be no less than 30cm)
It also has to be soldered and insulated properly. Scotch locks and spade connectors are a disaster waiting to happen.

Again as people have said if lower quality wire is used in the alarm system (cheapo alarm or dodgy installer) and it is for example in the fuel system the voltage to the pump will drop and
it will not supply enough fuel. This i think is easier to understand than the ignition problems talked about here.

I need to investigate this as i have a HKS twin power fitted. The bodges i have found on my car since i bought it have to be seen to be believed, i have had fuel lines held on with blue anodised
hose finishers and Shells finest optimax leakign all over my spark plugs and HT leads !!!!!!

Ive allready wired the fuel pump so i will have a look at the ignition wiring and find were my alarm is wired into.

out of interes does anyone sell an aftermarket or "new" loom for a FD3s ? Again 17 year old wiring was a problem on my cossie and i had a completely new wiring loom made. A mate has a business that does just this
he supplies Mark Shead of M A Developments with looms for his Autronic setups on skylines and evos. I could ask him if he would be interested in making new looms for the FD.
 

 kev-yorks

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Quote:

maybe the guy who mapped it should have seen it? you surely would pick up on a loose / under ignition during mapping??
 

One of the down sides with rolling road tuning/mapping is you don\'t get all the variables you do on a road. I bet all you guys that aren\'t running water injection have been seeing mega high intake temps the last few weeks which also means all the ancillaries under the bonnet coils etc are much hotter than the norm which increases the load on all components. However good someone is you can\'t map for all conditions and eventualities. Even if it turns out to be the alarm wiring the extra heat in the wiring increases the electrical resistance which in turn increases the load on components causing more heat its a vicious circle.
Kevin

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July 2006, 11:45 PM
 
mattmaclennan

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Alarm/Turbo Timer/Whatever, if it interupts the wire surrounding the IGN then it\'s bad news in my eyes. I have the luxury of starting from a bare shell, I can chose the age/resistance/length/colour of my entire wiring loom, my car won\'t break because of a mass produced wiring loom fault. It\'ll be thrashing the living daylights out of it that breaks it! If you are worried, buy a new loom, have your alarm fitted properly, buy a warrenty from a company that will touch a 15 year old car. Plenty of Imports are sold with aftermarket warrentes, they amount to nothing when the motor blows and it\'s due to "lack of maintenance", and that applies to about anything that could have possible caused the engine to fail. YOU OWN A SPORTSCAR!!! THEY ARE EXPENSIVE!!!! try and have some fun in it.
 

 BlitzBoy

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I know from past experiance with different cars if an alarm is "incorrectly" fitted eg cut into the fuel pump wiring system with inadequate parts or care it will cause a voltage drop to the pump hence less fuel delivered to the engine and therefore will create a lean condition and possiable detonation.

In this case a possiablitly of being wired into the coil ignition system and causing a miss fire. So I thinks its all down to the installer and the parts used in the alarm. 9 times out of 10 an alarm will be fine, but the risk is there I think

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 iaint

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Quote:

Originally Posted by maximtaylor

Several times I\'ve had cars that run fine on the dyno up to a certain rev / load point, and then the ignition suddenly starts missing.

Shove a direct 12v feed to the ignition from the battery and the miss goes.

Alarms are a very real problem on many FD\'s I\'ve tuned.
 


This is a completely clear statement from Max. He\'s seen it a number of times where the fedd to the coils causes a problem. It could be the alarm, it could be general ageing of the loom.

I\'d beinterested to know if the people who are calling Max a liar have evidence to back that up? Has he actually never seen this problem on the dyno or are you actually wrong but not prepared to admit it?

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 Prof

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Here\'s a scenario for you:

Week spark may result in incomplete combustion, and therefore carbon buildup. Carbon buildup could result in local hotspots in the rotor, causing pre ignition. This can result in engine failure, because the point that ignition occurs is no longer under control.

Higher boost, more fuel, WI will all require a stronger spark to be sure and safe on the combustion - an ingintion amp is a safe precaution.

As for the alarms - CAT1 alarms must interrupt 2 circuits - commonly this is the fuel pump and the ignition circuit. The size of the wires used on quite a few alarms I have seen are a lot smaller than the wire that is often spliced to interrupt power to the ingition and fuel injection circuits. Smaller wire means higher resistance - higher resistance means more voltage drop. If you reduce the voltage on the primary side of a transformer or \'coil\' you will by definition reduce the voltage on the secondary. Since the voltage drop effect is effectively multiplied by the transformer, a small change in the primary will result in a much bigger change in the secondary circuit:

For example:

12 x 2500 = 30000

11.5 x 2500 = 28750


Power = volts x Amps, Amps = Volts / Resistance. Resistance is the spark gap/mixture, so assuming this is constant :

Power = Volts x Volts / Resistance

So a small change in voltage causes a more significant change in power.

These facts speak for themselves - so I tend to put some store in comments by Max and others about wiring and weak sparks.

Just my opinion....

Prof.

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A load off the original posts have been cleaned up, swo some parts are missing. Will try and find a wiring diagram image it has the main ignition wire on it with no relay in it alarms have to have a switchable device in them. This will cause a issue as spoken about earlier. As you know I did a course in microelectronics and I also have Ben who works for astrim( they build satalites) I do not lie about things like cars (I will and have lied to female friendsJ) A few points the misn ignition wire comes off the igniton barrel from the battery and goes round the front off the car to the ignitor and coils IT DOES NOT GO THROUGH A RELAY AND IT IS 4 OR 5mm Mazda did this for a reason. A alarm cuts into this and goes from 4 or 5mm down to 1mm maybe 2 1mm wires into a circuit board and out in 1mm or 2 1mm wires into mazda 4 or 5mm wire and onto ingnitor and coil.( I forget the size off the wire but it is one off the 2 sizes) Lets put it into a fishing angle

Big Carp fishing (30lb +) you have a leader say 30lb snakebite this then goes down to 20lb nylon line. We all know that the line can stretch and is good for 30+ . But you cast out 100 yards, at 50 yards you have a 1m section that has 8lb line. If you hook a 12lber you should get it to the bank if you take your time and your careful, you hit a 30lber and it takes the bait slow and just sits there and dosen’t fight you might get it in! You get a 20lber that hits and keeps going your fduked. The wire can just about take 300rwhp over that who knows down to state off coils, plugs , leads and general wiring.

On an aside when I had the motec on the fc I set fire to the car one time when I nailed it, My main power supply to ecu and coils was way to small and burnt itself and the carpet + a load off plastic on the fan. I should off known better and I did know better. My mistake and I hold my hand up freely. I won’t make it again thoughL





IF I CAN FIND ANYMORE I WILL POST THEM UP.:wiggle

Sorry to say Hog, but this is just going to carry on from the closed thread. Cry\'s like \'Why isn\'t my reply and opinion in this\' etc will only turn this subject into a farce. Can we not just let the parties involved rectify this topic themselves, and learn from whatever mistakes have happened.
Cheers,

John

Just going to send you a PM mate.:Typing

:Thumbs-up Cool.....

PM sent.:eek:

just to add that my car blew from either this or a dodgy wiring loom. I have replaced the loom and have since taken all the imobiliser facilities off the alarm.

If anyone is worried by this alarm problem then the answer is simple. Put the cabling back to standard so the alarm is just acting as a sensor on the doors, boot and bonnet and anti hijacking features etc if you have them. Then use an alternative form of imobiliser, personally i have chosen to use a snap off steering wheel. theres nothing electrical to go wrong here and imo its better than any electronic ignition imobiliser.

Good to hear, Rich. I hope you aren\'t unfortunate enough to have to go through this again.
Cheers,
John

PM returned Hog

Just to add, i have watched this alarm problem first hand on my car.

On a hot day last summer (36c+) intake temps around 48c-50c pulled a couple of runs on the dyno (re:worx), and the top end of the power curve started to break up. Within 10 mins the alarm had been removed off the ignition circuit (now somewhere else) and another run was done without changing a thing on the power fc, the top end of the power curve was alot smoother.

I used to be a mechanic so i know what im looking at when it comes to cars.

IT IS A FACT THAT THIS STOPPED IGNITION BREAK UP ON MY CAR - END OF.

I try not to post to much on here because of things like this happening but thought it needed to be said.

Richard---You may also want to get yourself a little zip up pouch and when you park her up take out the Fuel fuse EGI in the fuse box near the battery. Does the same thing no fuel no go.HTH.:Thumbs-up

........
Cheers,
J

I don\'t mean to continue an endless debate and if this post is seen as such, mods - please feel free to delete it. I\'m just trying to add some constructive comments here.

Having read and understood the various comments above as well as the whole original thread, there\'s one comment that is missing and for the life of me, I can\'t find an explaination!

Why would a partial misfire or weak spark on a new engine with negligible carbon build up, running lowish boost and normal engine temps have possible detonation?

The only other way we know of petrol to ignite without a spark and cause detonation is through either excessive heat and/or high compression of the mixture.

Perhaps now that Glenn has PM\'d Jeff, he can explain this and we can all know.

Miguel.

but according to richard wasnt he driving allong normally and wasnt at top end of power curve where ign break up can be attributed to many things
his engine parameters of water and intake were ok and he was running little more than standard boost .96 i think  he quoted..ign break up may cause a slight missfire at low revs but highly unlikely it would pop an engine while driving normally..surely with such a low water temp of 85 deg which is pretty much an ideal temp with thermostat open and water flowing..had he have been ragging it surely water wld have risen to much higher temp esp if he was running a front mount and intake temp wld also have been higher

i will say again though that when tim rebuilt the engine he showed me the loom and it was v. brittle around the outer plastic and also some wire going into the sensor was bare, last mm or so of wire actually where it enters the sesors. Most notably, this was the case around the crank angle sensors and if two of these touched then it wouldnt have been good. Its evident that the alarms do have an affect but it may not have bene the reason for my engine going. It would be impossible to tell. I did take the loom back with me though and on the journey home in the van from rx motors it was a normal fairly bumpy ride. when i had got home one of the sensors had fallen off!! so they couldnt have been hanging on by much

wwith the alarm issue as a side point our looms are getting old now, so does any one do a replacment engine loom and if so how much?

matt

Run a microtech Matt you get a new loom with it and about £12 for all the plugs to solder on.
Kevin

Quote from: kev-yorksRun a microtech Matt you get a new loom with it and about £12 for all the plugs to solder on.
Kevin

But you still need to cut into the std ignition wireing, same as the alleged alarm farce, hence \'potentialy\' running the same risk...A point i made earlier.....but peoples heads were still stuck up their***** Happy days :Thumbs-up

J

Quote from: 88GT-RBut you still need to cut into the std ignition wireing, same as the alleged alarm farce, hence \'potentialy\' running the same risk...A point i made earlier.....but peoples heads were still stuck up their***** Happy days :Thumbs-up

J

:eek  hehehehehehehehehe.............:wiggle

My tuppence:

I fitted a clifford concept 500 to my Rex TTurbo. Afterwards I had problems with missfire and eventually the engine had to be removed.

Both the ignition and fuel pump looms were cut and isolating relays installed. The Clifford wiring was of similar x-sectional area.

My hypothesis: The mazda ignition and fuel circuits require larger current flow than most and both looms are close to the limit of their ability to provide adeqate voltage to their respective systems. By adding a relay and extra lengths of wire, these limits are surpassed. The result: lower fuel pressure and poor spark.
The fuel supply can be \'tuned for\' but weak spark leads to incvomplete combustion and carbon build up. Hot spots ensue and detonation occurs.

My solution: fitting secondary relays and direct supply from the battery to both these areas. Fused of course.

Please can I have your comments as to the validity of this?

Jon

Me thinks people need to read up on how Automobile electrics work and more importantly, the Coils and Ignition system!

i spoke to a friend of mine about this who used to fit alarms for a living, mainly clifford.  He is also an auto electrician.  When he used to fit alarms a few years ago the wiring and relays supplied were of a much better quality and more substantial but now like most things, the relays are cheap and the wiring thinner......  just something else to think about

Quote from: TRexMe thinks people need to read up on how Automobile electrics work and more importantly, the Coils and Ignition system!

I\'m guessing some people have !:o
 
Thing is I sit in a room full of electronics gear whilst I type this - including a low resistance meter - very accurate for low sub 0.1 Ohm readings on bits of wire, and there is some truth in the alarm wire being too small !
 
The wire section of the average alarm would give cable rated for 20A tops.  The thickness of wire in the feed to the main relay is about 4 x the area - good for 80A easily.  So you either double or triple up on the wire, or use an off board relay to switch it.  Even if you used thicker wire, the relay and the tracks on the alarm PCB may not be much better.  Most alarm\'s are rated at 30A max and are fused accordingly.
 
And for those wanting to know a bit more about coils:
 
A coil is a transformer - it has a primary - usually wired with thicker gauge wire of a few turns, where a high current low voltage feed will be transformed into a high voltage low current output.  The secondary has many more turns of smaller gauge wire, as the current output is much less.  The energy of the spark will be determined by the voltage x current and the duration of the spark.  You can prolong the duration of the spark by stretching the pulse that\'s sent to the coil - usually done with an ignition amp or by the ECU in some cases, you can improve the current supply to the coil by storing energy in either capacitors or inductors and then discharging that - the CDI or ID type ignition amps.  These devices often have intelligence inbuilt to supply multiple sparks in quick repetition at low RPM, and a single powerful spark at high RPM.
 
So you can weaken the spark if you reduce the voltage, or the current that\'s provided to the coil, unless you use an ingnition amp which is usually suplied power on a dedicated feed from the main fuse or battery, or insure that the leads in the circuit are the lowest resistance they can sensibly be - in other words keep these cables thick.
 
I think the point of this thread is to educate people to a very real danger that may exist with certain alarms and the way they are fitted - by all means ingore it and if you think you know better then good for you - but be sure of your facts on this - I know I am, and I know what I will be doing on my engine loom when I wire in the eManage.

Prof,
What you have written is true, and no one should argue it. The point is this. DETONATION is not caused by a weak voltage supply. A weak/drawn down voltage will affect the ignition system, as you and others have said. Crap wireing ontop of Mazda wireing will have an effect on voltage, but this fact does not constitute a reason for detonation. Most are missing the excuse behind the reasoning.

You\'re right John - not detonation, but it could lead to unburnt material, carbon and then pre-ingition.  The results can end up being the same :(
 
From what I know - detonation is the result of running too lean, too hot, too higher intake temperature or too advanced timing.  All these factors tend to work together - if you up the boost, then the intake temps go up, and also more air is coming in - if there isn\'t fuel to match it, then you run too lean, and things then get too hot as well !
 
One problem with a weak spark, is that if either the leading or trailing plugs didn\'t fire well, then the mixture tends to burn unevenly as the rotor moves around passed the \'pinch off\' point and the mixtures are re united again.  Rotaries will run on just one set of plugs, but the burn is uneven and \'lumpy\', which is why Mazda put 2 in.  Is it possible that resulting combustion could give a more violent burn and produce higher pressure waves on the tip seals ?  This isn\'t my area of expertise - need someone who knows about burn rates and pressure waves and so on...

Quick question Proff,

 Does a \'Spark Plug\' fire a different Spark(low/high volt/weak/strong) at Idle than it would at High RPM?

Quote from: TRexQuick question Proff,

 Does a \'Spark Plug\' fire a different Spark(low/high volt/weak/strong) at Idle than it would at High RPM?

OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHH

That depends
 
If your using an ingnition amp then it probably will be set up that way - the Crane cams do this - multi spark at idle and low rpm - single juice spark above about 2k.
 
For normal setups - where the ECU is firing the coils - the duration of the pulse sent to the coils can be reduced at higher RPM, potentially giving lower spark energy.  Coils have a working frequency range - the coils in cars are no different, so there must be a theoritical max RPM before the problem becomes bad.  Without testing this I don\'t know what that would be...

Quote from: ProfYou\'re right John - not detonation, but it could lead to unburnt material, carbon and then pre-ingition.  The results can end up being the same :(
 
From what I know - detonation is the result of running too lean, too hot, too higher intake temperature or too advanced timing.  All these factors tend to work together - if you up the boost, then the intake temps go up, and also more air is coming in - if there isn\'t fuel to match it, then you run too lean, and things then get too hot as well !
 
One problem with a weak spark, is that if either the leading or trailing plugs didn\'t fire well, then the mixture tends to burn unevenly as the rotor moves around passed the \'pinch off\' point and the mixtures are re united again.  Rotaries will run on just one set of plugs, but the burn is uneven and \'lumpy\', which is why Mazda put 2 in.  Is it possible that resulting combustion could give a more violent burn and produce higher pressure waves on the tip seals ?  This isn\'t my area of expertise - need someone who knows about burn rates and pressure waves and so on...

Once again you are right, but in this detail, ie the great alarm debate, the engine was new and barely run in. Cabon build up is negligable.
The second sparkplug\'s main requirement is in a slightly fuller burn, to improve emmissions.
Cheers,
J

question about plugs ,does a spark get blown out at high boost if its weak?

Quote from: ProfThat depends
 
If your using an ingnition amp then it probably will be set up that way - the Crane cams do this - multi spark at idle and low rpm - single juice spark above about 2k.
 
For normal setups - where the ECU is firing the coils - the duration of the pulse sent to the coils can be reduced at higher RPM, potentially giving lower spark energy.  Coils have a working frequency range - the coils in cars are no different, so there must be a theoritical max RPM before the problem becomes bad.  Without testing this I don\'t know what that would be...

Ignition Dwell time is adjustable on most aftermarket ecu\'s, allowing the mapper the ability to adjust charge time.

J

Quote from: BlitzBoyquestion about plugs ,does a spark get blown out at high boost if its weak?

Called flame out....Yes, it does happen and feels like a rev cut, as there is no/limited ignition.

J

mmm thank God I got the Twin Power fitted dont want any Flame outs from a weak Spark, do people with FDs upgrade to FC coils?

Quote from: ProfThat depends
 
If your using an ingnition amp then it probably will be set up that way - the Crane cams do this - multi spark at idle and low rpm - single juice spark above about 2k.
 
For normal setups - where the ECU is firing the coils - the duration of the pulse sent to the coils can be reduced at higher RPM, potentially giving lower spark energy.  Coils have a working frequency range - the coils in cars are no different, so there must be a theoritical max RPM before the problem becomes bad.  Without testing this I don\'t know what that would be...

 Question not answered! :)

I know of a couple in Yankland substituting for FC coils. I think they are stronger, maybe due to their location, but they are pretty effective. Having a larger stronger spark is always a good improvement, but having effective ignition control is more important.
I have not needed to ad an ignition amp to my setup.

J

Argh, don\'t worry bud... I promised I won\'t get tied up in this nonsence thread!  
 Best spend my time surfing p0rn...

Quote from: TRexQuestion not answered! :)

Enlighten us then o great sage.... :p
 
You post plenty questions and opinions, but facts....
 
Not really trying to have a go here - I only met you once so I don\'t really know you - but what question do you really want answered ? :confused:

Quote from: 88GT-RI know of a couple in Yankland substituting for FC coils. I think they are stronger, maybe due to their location, but they are pretty effective. Having a larger stronger spark is always a good improvement, but having effective ignition control is more important.
I have not needed to ad an ignition amp to my setup.
 
J

John - what coils/ECU are you using on your FC ?

Quote from: ProfJohn - what coils/ECU are you using on your FC ?

I thought you knew, mate. Microtech LT8 and standard coils.

J

I didn\'t know - and besides you got all sorts of wonderful in that engine bay of yours !  I would have guessed Microtec though, it seems the way most of the FC boys are going.

QuoteTrex, I promised I won\'t get tied up in this nonsence thread!

You keep your promise, But it\'s not a nonsense thread! it\'s very important to all us rotary owners to learn as much as possible about any possible risk to our engines, and how to deal with it, then given the information so far (which has been very interesting,) we can protect against any possible risks, if there is a risk of (IMHO already undersize cables) being further weakened by adding an alarm, i for one want to know the best way round the problem, even if it means not having a clifford alarm at all, i plan to rewire the fuel pump (heavy guage) with a in line concealed fire/security switch,as a start.
Bob

Quote from: ProfI didn\'t know - and besides you got all sorts of wonderful in that engine bay of yours !  I would have guessed Microtec though, it seems the way most of the FC boys are going.

TBH, I would run a well speced REW off a Microtech any day. Microtech has been popular with the FC crowd since it first came out.

J

Ok you want Facts as I won\'t waste space losing you in theory and leasons on wiring...
 Here are some facts!  MY facts!
 This is my last post on this subject...

Can an Alarm destroy/detonate your engine?

 Me personally.... \'NO\'..
 1. I have had many many Marques, from BMW\'s, Supra\'s, Impreza\'s etc etc etc, all had Alarms fitted (we talking well over a dozen cars here).. most if not all were Modded in some form or fashion.. again most if not all were used/abused, wether it be hardcore drag racing, track, drifting whatever...
 And guess what, I never ever had a problem with the Alarm screwing up the car...
 So what is that, \'Luck\'?
 
 2. Unlike some \'book and keyboard mechanics here\', I can hold my own with how a car works and know the Alarm cannot destroy an engine like it is described in this thread..

 3. I seem to keep very good company over the years, as I have meet hundreds of people just like myself in \'Scenerio 1 above\' that have also had many many vehicles with Alarms, and I have never recalled anyone of them that had the \'fabled\' missfortune of Alarm detonation or the likes..
 Shall I play the Lotto?

 4. Been involved in many many car clubs and forums over the years which attract \'thousands of car owners with alarms\'..  I cannot recall at anytime a thread ever surfaced about this.

 So I started with a few dozen cars, then into the thousands easily without seeing this problem...

 5. have a look at question 5 in this link, from the horses mouth! click click (http://www.clifford.com/uk/faq.asp#vehiclewarranty)
 Don\'t think they would be selling \'MILLIONS\' of alarms worldwide if it was a time bomb! (and this is just one company)

 No bullsh1t theory from a book, just Facts...
 Believe what you want!

 Rgds :Thumbs-up

Has anyone actually traced said wire to see where it goes? I\'ve heard from a specialist that it doesn\'t go to the coilpacks, but to the ECU, which is switched on by this wire, then amongst many other things is responsible for controlling the coil packs via the engine harness. This would make sense, as the ignition timing needs to be altered and is not done so by vacuum.

I\'d have thought this being the case, that either the ECU would work, or not work with slightly reduced current if at all. Electronics tend to either work, or not - they don\'t work at a reduced capacity with a slight drop of current.

Miguel.

On a different note - AFIK only excessive pressure/heat or both will ignite a mixture of fuel/air without a spark.

Carbon and hot spots are formed on very old engines with a lot of carbon build up.

For piston engines tit used to take over 100,000 - 150,000 miles to become a problem to the point it might cause a hot spot / rise in compression.

With today\'s petrols with additives that clean the combustion chamber as they burn, there\'s no significant carbon build up. I presure the rate of carbon build up is along similar lines in a rotary, as I\'ve seen no evidence otherwise on the surface of rotors when the engine\'s opend after high mileage.

Miguel

Trex,
 
That\'s a lot of good anecdotal evidence, and I suspect the incidence of alarm\'s causing engines to fail is very infrequent.
 
I checked out the clifford site, and the one thing that springs to mind is the fact that the say it will not cause a problem to the engine in any way " since a correctly installed Clifford system cannot damage a vehicle in any way whatsoever."
 
I imply by that statement that wire thicknesses and so on should be sufficient for the job that needs doing. A further read in the thread you posted "(some vehicles require additional relay modules, installation time or pin-switches). "
 
I suspect the real question behind this is why do rotaries pop - it would be good to see some sort of breakdown of what caused engine failure, if this was even possible to diagnose in every case, so that we can all build stronger and more reliable cars.
 
I just want to learn from this site mate, as do many others - I thank you for taking the time to post, and for Whartog for trying to condense the interesting parts from the original post. I offer my very extensive electronic knowledge for free - oh and I am pretty useful on a keyboard too !
 
Cheers,
 
Prof :cheers

I\'ll say it again, we\'ve been supplying low mileage RX-7\'s to UK for almost a decade now. Most if not all have been fitted with alarms and integrated immobilisers.

By now we\'d have heard about the problem if this thinking were true, as many cars would be popping engines shortly after being fitted with Clifford\'s finest. Clearly this isn\'t the case, so I\'m with Trex on this one.

Miguel.

Quote from: NeweraI\'ll say it again, we\'ve been supplying low mileage RX-7\'s to UK for almost a decade now. Most if not all have been fitted with alarms and integrated immobilisers.

By now we\'d have heard about the problem if this thinking were true, as many cars would be popping engines shortly after being fitted with Clifford\'s finest. Clearly this isn\'t the case, so I\'m with Trex on this one.

Miguel.

It is fair to say though Miguel, that your customers are amongst the most wealthy and enthusiastic of owners as they want the highest quality cars. It would be fair to say then that said customers are going to fit high quality alarms and have them done by proffessional installers.

I can\'t imagine a high class alarm like a Clifford causing any problems whatsoever, and I\'d be interested to hear from REworx if they have ever had any issues with these high end brands.

What I can imagine is a cheapo ebay £50 special hacked together by a half skilled muppet causing problems.

REworx state that they have seen ignition break up be solved by removing alarm wiring, I see no point in them saying this if it were not true, their reputation says that they are good honest people, I see no reason to doubt this.

Interesting debate.....

REworx state that they have seen ignition break up be solved by removing alarm wiring, I see no point in them saying this if it were not true, their reputation says that they are good honest people, I see no reason to doubt this.

Interesting debate.....[/QUOTE]

and santa is coming this christmas to deliver the presents and if he doesnt come the tooth fairy might stop by
sorry for sarcasm but i stopped laughing when my 1500mile engine was tested and only had 6.5bar and 4.5bar compression.maybe my alarm caused that as well

Quote from: rx7veilsidebut according to richard wasnt he driving allong normally and wasnt at top end of power curve where ign break up can be attributed to many things
his engine parameters of water and intake were ok and he was running little more than standard boost .96 i think  he quoted..ign break up may cause a slight missfire at low revs but highly unlikely it would pop an engine while driving normally..surely with such a low water temp of 85 deg which is pretty much an ideal temp with thermostat open and water flowing..had he have been ragging it surely water wld have risen to much higher temp esp if he was running a front mount and intake temp wld also have been higher

Ok, but the actual damage could have started at another time. The parts could have been weakend earlier, not necessarily at the exact time that they "let go"

Quote from: rx7veilsidesorry for sarcasm but i stopped laughing when my 1500mile engine was tested and only had 6.5bar and 4.5bar compression

I am assuming your engine was built by Reworx then?

Quote from: Red and SingleIt is fair to say though Miguel, that your customers are amongst the most wealthy and enthusiastic of owners as they want the highest quality cars. It would be fair to say then that said customers are going to fit high quality alarms and have them done by proffessional installers.

I can\'t imagine a high class alarm like a Clifford causing any problems whatsoever, and I\'d be interested to hear from REworx if they have ever had any issues with these high end brands.

What I can imagine is a cheapo ebay £50 special hacked together by a half skilled muppet causing problems.

REworx state that they have seen ignition break up be solved by removing alarm wiring, I see no point in them saying this if it were not true, their reputation says that they are good honest people, I see no reason to doubt this.

Interesting debate.....

My initial interest in this thread started because when a customer\'s very low mileage 1996 RX-7 went to RE Worx for power FC mapping and we were told this about the alarm by one of the staff........................

Out of concern, I spent a long time looking into this, as all alarms wired professionally are done the same way.

I have found no plausible explaination or evidence to suggest there\'s:

(a) Any problem at all if this main red wire is going to the ECU independent of the ignition system.

(b) An alegedly weak spark would indirectly cause detonation due to carbon build up on a near new engine running at normal operating temp and lowish boost.

(Read my posts above where there\'s more detail into (a) & (b)).

So in conclusion, this red wire on the car\'s harness being wired in series with an alarm\'s immobiliser is not a danger to the engine in an RX-7.

Miguel.

i blve richard is now running without an alarm there must be an alarm engineer out there who can give their pro opinion or a vehicle electrician
but all i will say is this seems to be a previously unheard of phonemonon(exuse the spelling)in the field of automotive vehicle electrics
throughout the world as i am unaware of this in any forum worldwide maybe we could do a google.co.universe to widen the field of investigation
as i understand wasnt it a clifford richard had on his car
he has stated that his loom didnt look to be perfect but then on installation of his engine wlnd it have been prudent to check what u are putting back together
i dont know whos to blame but it was richard that ended up taking it up the rear and to my mind then fobbed off
if the engine was built by one co and mapped by another there is a automatic get out clause from both sides as builder will say its the mapping and mapper will say its the builder
but as usual the punter takes the hit
and fyi carl hayward is now going to strip and rebuild my engine and he wasnt the original builder of the engine and until engine is stripped and inspected he wont be able to tell me why after 1500miles i only have 6.5bAR and 4.5 bar on a fresh engine(the second time its been rebuilt in 3 yrs)

I think we should close this thread now as we are not getting anywhere as there is loads of misquoting of what is actualy been said and meant. Miguel is now talking about pre-ignition (detonation) Reworx did not say a weak spark would cause pre-ignition, Reworx are talking about the ignition missing on the dyno and how the missing goes once the alarm/immobilser has been rewired there was no mention by them about pre-ignition(det)

Quote from: rx7veilsidefyi carl hayward is now going to strip and rebuild my engine and he wasnt the original builder of the engine and until engine is stripped and inspected he wont be able to tell me why after 1500miles i only have 6.5bAR and 4.5 bar on a fresh engine(the second time its been rebuilt in 3 yrs)

So you still have not answered my question who originally built your engine or is it a secret??

blitzboy have pmd u

Quote from: BlitzBoyI think we should close this thread now as we are not getting anywhere as there is loads of misquoting of what is actualy been said and meant. Miguel is now talking about pre-ignition (detonation) Reworx did not say a weak spark would cause pre-ignition, Reworx are talking about the ignition missing on the dyno and how the missing goes once the alarm/immobilser has been rewired there was no mention by them about pre-ignition(det)

The threads are about alarms causing engine failure.

I\'ve responded to other posts where people have posted that "hot spots" resulting from carbon build up resulting from a partial misfire caused by an "improperly fitted alarm" would be an explaination. Fact is, they couldn\'t have in this case, so hopefully we\'ve now dispelled this myth.


The main fact is: A partial misfire alone cannot cause engine failure.

Miguel.

With regards to Richards engine though any reason why he didn\'t go back to the engine builder for mappin ? as really thinking about it if anything went wrong then there is a get out clause for both as you have mentioned :(

Quote from: BlitzBoyI think we should close this thread now as we are not getting anywhere as there is loads of misquoting of what is actualy been said and meant. Miguel is now talking about pre-ignition (detonation) Reworx did not say a weak spark would cause pre-ignition, Reworx are talking about the ignition missing on the dyno and how the missing goes once the alarm/immobilser has been rewired there was no mention by them about pre-ignition(det)

Hey Mark,
I like you, and respect your views and opinions, so am going to choose my words carefully. I would like to say this for the last time, as this will be my lastpost on this thread.(as i have said the same thing over and over, with no arguement, but still people don\'t get the facts) Reworx have publicly stated an alarm to be at fault...fair enough.
On another post an employee stated that the alarm causes a \'missfire\' at high revs, and have rectified the problem by effectively increasing the voltage at the coils. Fair enough. This fact indicates a poor or interupted voltage feed to the coils. Sweet. These facts, as stated by the company, will not induce detonation. Fact. Especialy on a newly rebuilt engine.
I said in the original thread, that mistakes happen and it is what is done about them in the future that is important. People assumed i mean\'t that the mistake was made in the mapping. What i meant was that the choice of using an alarm as the excuse was the mistake.

I will happily reply to any comments sent by PM.
Cheers ladys,

John

i dont think tim maps, but i could be wrong.

matt

Totally agree with your comments John. Its just others who have posted on this or read this thread mistake det and missfire as being the same thing when they are two separate things.

The only thing I want to see out of these threads is things that prevent early rebuilds. Be it bad looms,wiring,fuel,pumps,injectors,faulty parts,mistakes etc etc anything that will cause premature blow ups and steps to prevent them to a degree so it will help the readers make their minds ups.

as mentioned a few posts above tim doesnt remap ecu\'s so thats why i used the two companies. RX motors is closer to me and was much cheaper for the rebuild and porting. They also were very highly reccomended and on the phone tim and mat were very helpful. When it came to mapping i was going to go with a guy called greg in bristol who tim reccomended but around this time i wanted it done i couldnt get hold of him (email problem) so decided to go with reworx as they could fit me in quickly.

Here we go....

I have been doing some testing at work..bikes I know but its all the same 4 stroke cycle.

We use twin plugs to get an even burn because of the large piston diameters on this particular engine. The testing has been to run with only one plug at low RPM\'s to slow down the burn and improve the torque. This has worked but we are now CLOSER TO DETONATION.

My theory: A reduction in the supply voltage to the coil packs of alarmed vehicles leads to missfire of either of the plugs. This causes detonation and the engine pops a seal. This explains why it happened at normal driving speeds as we all know from experience: Detonation is much worse at lower RPM\'s.

Also, the statements that carbon build up from missfire would take too long are false. I\'ve had apart many a cylinder head after a short duration test and carbon can build on the plugs and in pockets etc very quickly.

???confused???

Are we saying that having an alarm could cause my engine to pop a seal?

I don\'t think anyone on this thread is saying it does - I think some, including myself, said it could be possible.
 
As for Richards motor - until it\'s apart no one is going to know.
 
It has to be said, and from what Trex has posted, that if it has happened then it will be a pretty infrequent occurrence.
 
It would never hurt to check the wiring in any case - I had some awful wiring around the alarm / immobiliser on my car - and some twist together bodges in the engine bay and around the loom at the front where the lights are.  You buy an old car you might have had cowboys in :bandit

Prof, its been apart, repaired, backtogether, ran in and mapped again, lol. The ignition loom is completly standard now and engine loom renewed. There was no definate answer to why it blew but everything that could have blew it (alarm and other bits on ign. loom and engine loom) has been rectified. its putting out the same power again and all is good.

Quote from: Jonathan_FHere we go....

I have been doing some testing at work..bikes I know but its all the same 4 stroke cycle.

We use twin plugs to get an even burn because of the large piston diameters on this particular engine. The testing has been to run with only one plug at low RPM\'s to slow down the burn and improve the torque. This has worked but we are now CLOSER TO DETONATION.

My theory: A reduction in the supply voltage to the coil packs of alarmed vehicles leads to missfire of either of the plugs. This causes detonation and the engine pops a seal. This explains why it happened at normal driving speeds as we all know from experience: Detonation is much worse at lower RPM\'s.

Also, the statements that carbon build up from missfire would take too long are false. I\'ve had apart many a cylinder head after a short duration test and carbon can build on the plugs and in pockets etc very quickly.

Sounds like you got a cool Job Jon who do you work for?

Richard I am glad you are up and running :Thumbs-up nice when you are rolling about in and FD thats working correctly

If you have 12v at your igniter,it will send 40v to the coil,which at 100 turns to 1 will give 40,000 volts at the spark plug.
Now if the alarm wiring only allows the igniter to see 11v,the igniter only sends 33.3v to the coil,100:1,gives 33,300 volts at the spark plug.
That is a loss of 6,700 volts to the spark plug,of course you will have a weaker spark.Misfiring is now much more likely,especially on high boost,because under boost a much stronger spark is needed to ignite the mixture.
This misfire,if it occurs is not detonation.If the fuel pump sees lower than the already lower than 12v (standard wiring),then it is very likely the fuel pump will not be able to maintain the pressure required under boost,mixture goes lean,engine goes pop.
Point is you should aim for 14v at the igniter,and at the fuel pump,so cutting wiring and adding any alarm wiring is a very bad idea if you want to run more than stock power.

Yay !
TIm explained the whole thing in a few sentences ! And he agrees with Miguel.

Instead of ripping out the alarm wiring and voiding insurance. Fitting a fused line from the battery to the igniter via a relay which is switched on by the old igniter wiring will solve both problems. This should keep imoboliser in place and give the igniter a good supply.

Quote from: MartinyYay !
TIm explained the whole thing in a few sentences ! And he agrees with Miguel.

Interestingly though, if read in conjunction with Johnathan F\'s post you can see how weak spark could cause det.  Tim also says that lower power to the fuel pump could cause lean running & det...

Glad this is such a simple problem, otherwise we\'d be here for weeks arguing :Giggle

Link which may be of interest.

http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=305641#post305641

Q. SHould I not get my alarm fitted at xmas then? Is it gonna cause problems?

I think its amazing some of the opinions displayed from those questioning this problem when they clearly dont have a god damn clue in reality.

I will leave it at that.

cally u will have to have an alarm for ins..get good quality alarm and ask them to use as thick a wire as poss for ignition cut..

Quote from: CallyQ. SHould I not get my alarm fitted at xmas then? Is it gonna cause problems?

Have it fitted but talk to the fitter and explain the issue!

Now that fuel pump has been brought into the discussion, and we\'re diverting from the alarm issue, here\'s a thought:

Standard fuel pump on RX-7 is fed with low current, not high current and even as standard there are always voltage fluctuations depending on what the Alternator\'s producing, load on the electrical system, etc. So is an alarm really possibly going to cause a problem with lean running?

Mostly, a healthy alternator should produce at anything from 12.5 to 14.5 volts when opreating normally, so this is what a fuel pump will see, as opposed to 12 V or even less.

I asked Knight Sports about this, are the most knowledgeable people I know in Japan.

They did say a small drop in voltage or current to the fuel pump wouldn\'t cause detonation only a severe drop in voltage & current, caused by something abnormal.

I still think a voltage or current drop to the ECU wouldn\'t cause a drop in voltage to the coil packs either as the ECU only controls the ignition circuit, it doesn\'t feed it directly.

Check with a volt meter at the pump / coils.... That should provide a concrete answer.

Miguel.

This has reminded me of something that could be potentially very important and something i forgot to add. Does say having massive amps and subs in a car on full pelt mean that a voltage drop could happen somewhere else? I remembered when i was in my car the music was up loud and i have about 2KW RMS of power. Could this have reduced the voltage pruduced in the alternator enough to cause a problem to other components??

Quote from: richard cashThis has reminded me of something that could be potentially very important and something i forgot to add. Does say having massive amps and subs in a car on full pelt mean that a voltage drop could happen somewhere else? I remembered when i was in my car the music was up loud and i have about 2KW RMS of power. Could this have reduced the voltage pruduced in the alternator enough to cause a problem to other components??

AFAIK big audio installs often need a second battery and big capacitors to help with the current drain the bass inflicts on the car\'s system.  I\'ve seen badly done installs dim the main lights when the bass really kicks out so I would think it\'s a significant possibility (or probability) that big ICE could cause enough of a drain to cause you huge problems!

Quote[I still think a voltage or current drop to the ECU wouldn\'t cause a drop in voltage to the coil packs either as the ECU only controls the ignition circuit, it doesn\'t feed it directly/QUOTE]
you are correct in that a voltage drop to the ecu will not cause a voltage drop to the coils and ignition circuit. The reason being that the ecu sends a signal to the ignitor that recives it\'s power source just as the coils recive ther power source from the ignition switch via the black and white wire.
These are my personal veiws
Chris

You test enough fuel pump on fd\'s and it is quite apparent that there is hardly ever 12 volt getting to the pump. You rewire fuel pumps on a fd and you will see that increasing pump voltage by 1v change the afr buy approx 1 whole point e.g 10.7 to 9.7 afr. There is no reason to suspect that losing 1 volt to the fuel pump would have the same effect on afr say 10.7 to 11.7 afr.
Depending on boost, fuel, timing it is very likely low voltage to the fuel pump could cause detonation.

Quote from: rotaryimports.comYou test enough fuel pump on fd\'s and it is quite apparent that there is hardly ever 12 volt getting to the pump. You rewire fuel pumps on a fd and you will see that increasing pump voltage by 1v change the afr buy approx 1 whole point e.g 10.7 to 9.7 afr. There is no reason to suspect that losing 1 volt to the fuel pump would have the same effect on afr say 10.7 to 11.7 afr.
Depending on boost, fuel, timing it is very likely low voltage to the fuel pump could cause detonation.

Is the bold bit supposed to read differently?  i.e. There is no reason not to suspect[/B] that

Quote from: iaintIs the bold bit supposed to read differently?  i.e. There is no reason not to suspect[/B] that

Yes my bad, should of had an early night.