Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: rx-paul on October 23, 2006, 12:49:43 PM
Post by: rx-paul on October 23, 2006, 12:49:43 PM
hi had this dyno done saturday at powerstation can you tell if your engine has been ported fron a dyno?
!["Photobucket]("http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e371/rx-paul/DSC00080.jpg")
mod are
knightsport ecu
knightsport boost controller
hks downpipe
de-cat
titanium cat back
air pump removed
lightened pullies
waldbro fuel pump
ran at 0.9bar on v-power
mod are
knightsport ecu
knightsport boost controller
hks downpipe
de-cat
titanium cat back
air pump removed
lightened pullies
waldbro fuel pump
ran at 0.9bar on v-power
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: dandan on October 23, 2006, 01:22:14 PM
Post by: dandan on October 23, 2006, 01:22:14 PM
I dont know but thats pretty good power! :)
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: nikp on October 23, 2006, 01:25:04 PM
Post by: nikp on October 23, 2006, 01:25:04 PM
Wheel power 253bhp, and engine power 347!? Who are they trying to kid!!!?
they reckon there\'s 94bhp lost through transmission - Or, put another way, 27% losses!
On a 250~bhp wheel figure, it would be more like 300~bhp power at the fly. (Impossible to tell if it\'s been ported, but with those wheel figures it\'s unlikely to have been.
they reckon there\'s 94bhp lost through transmission - Or, put another way, 27% losses!
On a 250~bhp wheel figure, it would be more like 300~bhp power at the fly. (Impossible to tell if it\'s been ported, but with those wheel figures it\'s unlikely to have been.
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: andysmee on October 23, 2006, 04:32:21 PM
Post by: andysmee on October 23, 2006, 04:32:21 PM
nikp, Powerstation are OK IMHO. Those figures are based on a run down test for drag and 27% sounds OK. What makes you think they are so off?
I used to take my Coupe to Powerstation and it ran 150rwhp which was about 200fwhp on the run down test. This was perfect and matched the book value for the car - FWD ~25%
I assume you have a lot of experience but I also know that they use a tried and tested method for their power dyno tests so why are they likely to be so far off IYHO?
P.S. Not trying to be a PITA, but I don\'t understand why you are so surprised when ~30% losses is not an unheard of figure?
I used to take my Coupe to Powerstation and it ran 150rwhp which was about 200fwhp on the run down test. This was perfect and matched the book value for the car - FWD ~25%
I assume you have a lot of experience but I also know that they use a tried and tested method for their power dyno tests so why are they likely to be so far off IYHO?
P.S. Not trying to be a PITA, but I don\'t understand why you are so surprised when ~30% losses is not an unheard of figure?
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: nikp on October 23, 2006, 05:01:23 PM
Post by: nikp on October 23, 2006, 05:01:23 PM
Here, this may make interesting reading for you, concerning rolling road and their \'accurate\' flywheel figures:
http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/power3.htm
It\'s more reliable to go by the wheel figure. It\'s all pub talk at the end of the day though. It\'s how it performs in the real world is the key!
http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/power3.htm
It\'s more reliable to go by the wheel figure. It\'s all pub talk at the end of the day though. It\'s how it performs in the real world is the key!
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: rx-paul on October 23, 2006, 09:26:19 PM
Post by: rx-paul on October 23, 2006, 09:26:19 PM
this is the first time i have run the car on the dyno. the lads at powerstation said not to take much notice of the wheel bhp for some reason and juct to look at the corrected power (361.6) because of the way there dyno is set. this was part of a rolling road day and there were a couple of standard scoobies that run which made the book bhp so it couldent be that far out i hope anyway.
all i wanted to find out was if the engine was ported concidering the mods on and the bhp?
all i wanted to find out was if the engine was ported concidering the mods on and the bhp?
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: Ada7 on October 23, 2006, 09:39:50 PM
Post by: Ada7 on October 23, 2006, 09:39:50 PM
i got told that you lose about 18% of the power though the transmission.
My old car (Andy\'s Smee\'s) was showing 280bhp at the rear wheels, which works out to be 341ish at the fly. Might be slightly more than that now btw Andy as i changed the indution pipes afterwards as they were the standard rubber ones and had loads of holes in them. :D
As has been said, this is all pub talk anyway
Adam
My old car (Andy\'s Smee\'s) was showing 280bhp at the rear wheels, which works out to be 341ish at the fly. Might be slightly more than that now btw Andy as i changed the indution pipes afterwards as they were the standard rubber ones and had loads of holes in them. :D
As has been said, this is all pub talk anyway
Adam
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: nikp on October 23, 2006, 10:37:57 PM
Post by: nikp on October 23, 2006, 10:37:57 PM
The higher the power you go, the smaller the percentage the lossed will be. According to Puma racing given in that link, and the figures are reasonable, you lose about 17-18% (roughly speaking) up to about 300bhp. Above that, the losses drop to around 11-12%. So, on an output wheel figure of 250bhp, you\'re looking at a rough flywheel output of 305bhp. That\'s taking into account 18% transmission losses.
Transmission losses will never be as high as 27-30%. Even 4wd vehicles are liekly to lose in the region of only 22%.
Transmission losses will never be as high as 27-30%. Even 4wd vehicles are liekly to lose in the region of only 22%.
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: trevtubby on October 24, 2006, 09:14:40 AM
Post by: trevtubby on October 24, 2006, 09:14:40 AM
at WGT on their dyno I got 240ishWHP, which equated to 281.5bhp at the flywheel.
I`m not sure how they got 360bhp at the fly with 253bhp at the wheels..surely the at the wheels figure is the only accurate reading, as the flywheel figure is basically an educated guesstimate?
I`m not sure how they got 360bhp at the fly with 253bhp at the wheels..surely the at the wheels figure is the only accurate reading, as the flywheel figure is basically an educated guesstimate?
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: nikp on October 24, 2006, 09:18:23 AM
Post by: nikp on October 24, 2006, 09:18:23 AM
Quote from: trevtubbyI`m not sure how they got 360bhp at the fly with 253bhp at the wheels..surely the at the wheels figure is the only accurate reading, as the flywheel figure is basically an educated guesstimate?
Unless tested on an engine dyno, the flywheel figure is always a guess/estimation. You know roughly what the transmission losses will be, so can estimate the figure using that.
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: trevtubby on October 24, 2006, 09:22:48 AM
Post by: trevtubby on October 24, 2006, 09:22:48 AM
Quote from: nikpUnless tested on an engine dyno, the flywheel figure is always a guess/estimation. You know roughly what the transmission losses will be, so can estimate the figure using that.
Yeah thats what I thought :), how do they figure out the losses though? is it something to do with them putting the clutch in after the run and letting the wheels come to a stop by themself...then the dyno figures out the transmission losses by how long it takes the wheels to stop spinning?
or is that complete bollox, maybe someone told me that one night whilst drunk in the local haha.
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: nikp on October 24, 2006, 09:29:27 AM
Post by: nikp on October 24, 2006, 09:29:27 AM
Basically, the use a rough figure. Read the article in the link i posted above. But, to cut it short, they use roughly 17-18% for rear wheel drive cars, 22% for 4wd cars, and about 15% for FWD cars.
In other words, take your RWD BHP figure, and divide by 0.82 (18% losses)to get a rough indication of what your flywheel power could be.
In other words, take your RWD BHP figure, and divide by 0.82 (18% losses)to get a rough indication of what your flywheel power could be.
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: trevtubby on October 24, 2006, 09:43:30 AM
Post by: trevtubby on October 24, 2006, 09:43:30 AM
oh right ok, I thought every car would be different though, didnt think they would just use the same % for any car with the same type of drive.
ah well nevermind lol.
ah well nevermind lol.
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: sadgoth on October 24, 2006, 09:55:00 AM
Post by: sadgoth on October 24, 2006, 09:55:00 AM
using the calc in that link i.e. (253.3rwhp + 10bhp) / 0.88 would mean that in this case the FWHP should be: 290.2fwhp
this sounds far mre realistic (some may say low - but a least it is better that than huge pub talk figures that mean NOTHING)
this sounds far mre realistic (some may say low - but a least it is better that than huge pub talk figures that mean NOTHING)
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: nikp on October 24, 2006, 09:56:15 AM
Post by: nikp on October 24, 2006, 09:56:15 AM
Quote from: trevtubbyoh right ok, I thought every car would be different though, didnt think they would just use the same % for any car with the same type of drive.
ah well nevermind lol.
It\'s the only way you can do it! As i said, read the link. It\'s very interesting stuff.
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: sadgoth on October 24, 2006, 09:59:11 AM
Post by: sadgoth on October 24, 2006, 09:59:11 AM
Quote from: trevtubbyoh right ok, I thought every car would be different though, didnt think they would just use the same % for any car with the same type of drive.
ah well nevermind lol.
That is what the article says, every car is different so without actually using an engine dyno, you can\'t get a totally acurate FWHP figure but, as an average you can use the following calulations to work out FWHP from WHP
RWD: (RWHP + 10bhp) / 0.88
FWD: (FWHP + 10bhp) / 0.9
4WD: (WHP + 10bhp) / 0.84
tire pressure has a big effect on transmission loss as well.
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: sadgoth on October 24, 2006, 09:59:51 AM
Post by: sadgoth on October 24, 2006, 09:59:51 AM
The article make for very interesting reading
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: nikp on October 24, 2006, 10:14:37 AM
Post by: nikp on October 24, 2006, 10:14:37 AM
Jeez - i just seen that that printout has a corrected power of 360! That\'s 110bhp more than the wheel figure!! :eek That\'s 31% transmission losses!
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: AshRX on October 24, 2006, 12:40:57 PM
Post by: AshRX on October 24, 2006, 12:40:57 PM
nik is right
when i have the skybus dynoed i lost 22% through the transmission
353 @ the wheels and 453bhp at the flywheel
when i have the skybus dynoed i lost 22% through the transmission
353 @ the wheels and 453bhp at the flywheel
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: John Yorke on October 24, 2006, 01:50:13 PM
Post by: John Yorke on October 24, 2006, 01:50:13 PM
Quote from: rx-paulhi had this dyno done saturday at powerstation can you tell if your engine has been ported fron a dyno?
mod are
knightsport ecu
knightsport boost controller
hks downpipe
de-cat
titanium cat back
air pump removed
lightened pullies
waldbro fuel pump
ran at 0.9bar on v-power
Almost certain that is not ported peek power would be higher up the rev range [7-8k band]
The figures are all over the place going on your mods 250 / 260 whp would be expected which equates to around 300ish fwhp. Oh and if this is a fresh import with the Knightsport ECU be very carefull they are pre-programmed to run on 100octain and have been known to let go, my advice would be to get it checked out by one of the specialists WGT would be the closest to you.
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: nikp on October 24, 2006, 01:57:07 PM
Post by: nikp on October 24, 2006, 01:57:07 PM
Pip would most likely say bin the ECU- he doesn\'t have any respect for them pre-programmed/mapped ECU\'s.
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: iaint on October 24, 2006, 02:22:38 PM
Post by: iaint on October 24, 2006, 02:22:38 PM
Quote from: nikpPip would most likely say bin the ECU- he doesn\'t have any respect for them pre-programmed/mapped ECU\'s.
Not many tuners do :)
IIRC Carl once said it\'s ~18% or 55bhp to convert to flywheel from the measures rwhp figure.
My mate\'s GT4 has around 25% powertrain losses in comparison!
It\'s in the interest of the dyno people to have big number quoted as it\'ll get their name mentioned more - if you have a poor figure you\'ll keep quiet about it...
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: BlitzBoy on October 24, 2006, 04:35:43 PM
Post by: BlitzBoy on October 24, 2006, 04:35:43 PM
all Im concerned with is how much power the tarmac is actually seeing who cares what the engine is making at the flywheel. Anyways a dyno is only a tuning tool at the end of the day when you make a mod go back to the same dyno to see if its made a difference
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: nikp on October 24, 2006, 04:50:37 PM
Post by: nikp on October 24, 2006, 04:50:37 PM
Quote from: rx-paulhi had this dyno done saturday at powerstation can you tell if your engine has been ported fron a dyno?
I bet you wish you never asked the question now!! :) Still, you hopefully know a bit more now!
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: DRAGON on October 24, 2006, 05:03:56 PM
Post by: DRAGON on October 24, 2006, 05:03:56 PM
Quote from: iaintNot many tuners do :)
QUOTE]
I do, specially FEED, Panspeed, knightsports, run one on one of my own cars.
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: RemarkLima on October 24, 2006, 05:17:46 PM
Post by: RemarkLima on October 24, 2006, 05:17:46 PM
RE power losses, I heard that 4WD will loose a lot more through the transmission than a 2WD car, so the ~18% for RWD / FWD and then ~25% for 4WD stuff...
But as people have said, it\'s a tuning tool to get the car running right, you can only really compare power on the same dyno on the same say IMHO.
But as people have said, it\'s a tuning tool to get the car running right, you can only really compare power on the same dyno on the same say IMHO.
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: rx-paul on October 25, 2006, 10:08:03 AM
Post by: rx-paul on October 25, 2006, 10:08:03 AM
Quote from: nikpPip would most likely say bin the ECU- he doesn\'t have any respect for them pre-programmed/mapped ECU\'s.the ecu is one of the things holding the car back and have a power fc on order
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: nikp on October 25, 2006, 10:12:09 AM
Post by: nikp on October 25, 2006, 10:12:09 AM
Good move!
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: iaint on October 25, 2006, 12:43:49 PM
Post by: iaint on October 25, 2006, 12:43:49 PM
Quote from: DRAGONQuote from: iaintNot many tuners do :)I do, specially FEED, Panspeed, knightsports, run one on one of my own cars.
Which one and is it safe on normal fuel? Have you upped the fuelling pressure to \'fool\' it into providing safe fuelling under boost?
Enquiring minds want to know! :)
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: rx-paul on October 26, 2006, 10:55:06 AM
Post by: rx-paul on October 26, 2006, 10:55:06 AM
Quote from: iaintWhich one and is it safe on normal fuel? Have you upped the fuelling pressure to \'fool\' it into providing safe fuelling under boost?
Enquiring minds want to know! :)
i havent encountered any fueling problems yet but after looking at the e-mail i got back from knightsport japan iv found that the ecu is only mapped to run with
back box
arc induction kit
cat in place
knightsport boost controller
and the air pump removed (dissconected)
so im streaching it way over it map
Title: how can you tell if its ported?
Post by: rx-paul on October 26, 2006, 10:56:08 AM
Post by: rx-paul on October 26, 2006, 10:56:08 AM
also does anyone know if the power fc will run with my knightsport ebs3 controller?