Attended my first ever rolling road day today and ran my car -
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y196/koolance/DSC00704.jpg)
this is the graph from today (269.8 atw) at AVA which is near glasgow, here is a graph I got with the car when I bought it (done at reworx) -
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y196/koolance/DSC00705.jpg)
Whats peoples thoughts on these? Having never had a car done before I dont know much about graphs etc
Spec -
Street ported engine 3000miles ago by REWORX.
Apexi PFC ECU mapped by REWORX 292 @ rear wheels approx 350 @ flywheel
Apexi AVCR boost controller
850cc injectors primary and secondary
Blitz induction
Sard uprated SMIC same as TRUST SMIC not the skinny type.
Blitz BOV
Bullion uprated ally rad
HKS downpipe
R-Magic silenced midpipe
Blitz Nurspec backbox
Same figure as mine was
clicky (http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30006)
What boost you running ?
tbh I would expect a little more with a street port, my lump is not ported and produced that same power @ 0.8 Bar round 1k lower in the rev range
edit: just noticed I seem to have an extra 10-15 ft/lbs of torque as well
strange..
My apexi avc-r holds at 0.79 so pretty much 0.8 like yourself. I just cant understand why there would be such a large drop when the other one done at reworx was only done 4 months ago. AVA today 270, Reworx 4 months ago 292.
oh sh1t I was looking at the RE:Worx one as today
hmm, there can often be differences in the calibration between different rr\'s
I always wondered if the RE:Worx one was a little high, although the AVA could be very low..
possible that you were getting wheelspin, higher intake temps,
Hang on, I don\'t think that RE:Worx one is from the same car you know:
1 - what is the ID 104904 - that should be reg number
2 - look at the difference between the two curves, pay attn to where the line flattens as the 2nd tub kicks in, 2 different cars I am sure
Think the differences are down to correction value\'s that the different rolling road\'s use.
Quote from: strange_days_ukHang on, I don\'t think that RE:Worx one is from the same car you know:
1 - what is the ID 104904 - that should be reg number
2 - look at the difference between the two curves, pay attn to where the line flattens as the 2nd tub kicks in, 2 different cars I am sure
I did wonder this myself... looks like the ID is the file number.
Quote from: Ricco_04Think the differences are down to correction value\'s that the different rolling road\'s use.
explain please
Quote from: strange_days_ukHang on, I don\'t think that RE:Worx one is from the same car you know:
1 - what is the ID 104904 - that should be reg number
2 - look at the difference between the two curves, pay attn to where the line flattens as the 2nd tub kicks in, 2 different cars I am sure
i was thinking the same the power is developed very differently the graph from today doesnt show the change over!!
Quote from: CallyI did wonder this myself... looks like the ID is the file number.
Best bet is ring up Geff and ask him. If you look at my chart from there it clearly shows the Registration Number
AVA seem to run their rolling road different to any vids etc I\'ve seen, they run it up to certain rpm\'s and hold it, then up and hold it etc etc. Myabe why the change over isnt as clear?
also was the run today done in 3rd as that as a .8ish ratio and reworx will probably be in 4th which is a ratio off about 1
yeah it was done in 3rd gear, can that make a difference?
The 104904 is probably the chassis number ie. FD3S-104094
Rolling roads differ wherever you go. The Dyno Dynamics that Reworx have is one of the more accurate Rolling Roads I believe.
There are also other factors such as air temperature that can make a big difference. My old car dropped about 15rwhp at the end of its mapping session due to heatsoak with the SMIC after its 7th or 8th run.
i think so but i got the ratios wrong
http://www.neweraparts.com/partinfo.jsp?pid=412
gives the correct ratios, i agree with above give reworx a ring
What exactly would I be phoning them to say though? Arent some of them on this forum? hopefully someone see\'s it!
So could doing it in 3rd and not 4th make a different I dont really understand.
Kermit - the i/c outlet temps are marked as T3 on the graph.
I didnt get the i/c outlet temps on the that graph, until you explained the way AVA do their runs.
Jumps from 25 - 57 - 26 all between 1000rpm! Also at your peak power point the temp is 73 (huge!) so bound to have an impact
Actually just thought, I take it that have there own sensor for the IC temps?
yeah I think so. Is 73 going to be doing damage?
no but your apexi will retard the timing
what that mean? lol I drive cars lol dont know all the ins and outs yet..
I can\'t give you a technical answer, effectively once the air intake temp goes above a set level (70 I think for the apexi) it will retard the timing. This is because you run a greater risk of pre-ignition/detonation.
If the air is hotter, then the fuel/air mix be will be hotter and can ignite before it reaches the corect part of the engine (totally unkowledgable myself) and cause damage.
So I think the pfc will reduce the amount of fuel going in and change the timing, which means the engine is producing less power but then is much less likely to have det.
hmmm
any ideas on why temps would go up that high? or how I could check it out?
Stock intercooler is rubbish. It is also in a bad position, being up in the engine bay.
It heatsoaks quite easily, which is why one of the first mods most people do if going for more power, is a front mount intercooler (fmic)
Even a good intercooler if you are driving hard for a length of time will loose it\'s efficiency and you will see temps creep up a little..
Its not stock, its a sard smic. So I prolly would have made more power if it wasnt for that high temp? Would it be worth getting i/c or anything checked?
to be fair Scott I don\'t really know.
I am still on the learning curve myself at the moment.
If your engine is ported, I would certainly expect more power than that.
If that temp figure is what the apexi was seeing, then it will definately have retarted the timing.
See if you can do some searching/research on the forum for informatin about inductiion temps and timing and the apexi, which is a very advanced piece of kit..
There is a whole myriad of useful info on here, just spend a little time to look for it :Typing
and that is still a decent figure, better than any stock FD..
i think i seen on the screen that fuelling was 11% over c02, is that normal for an FD? Yeah Ive read up on the apexi before but it just confuses me lol. Will the map have retarded the timing before anything could go wrong? Thanks for all your help / replies.
Anyone else got any views? advice on this?
Quote from: strange_days_ukexplain please
To the best of my knowledge :o when a car is put on a rolling road this gives a power figure at the rear wheels (rather than a hub dyno or an engine dyno). They let the car run down to help calculate the transmission loss - it is this calculation that can vary with different companies. Some use a higher figure than others. That\'s why you will always see people\'s car getting a higher figure at rolling road x rather than rolling road y.
I think that\'s correct?
damn there was me thinking it was an answer to my high temp, come on people I am sitting here worrying!! lol
if your intake temps dont go above 50 deg running full boost on lots of full chat runs, then your ic is working ok and is doing its job- ie under control.
pip told me that when he mapped my fd running twins with std mount trust ic running 11psi full decat 1300cc secondary injectors, this was on a very hot day in the high 80s, it pulled 285 rwhp on his dynapack hub dyno which are believed to be very acurate.
2 weeks later the car pulled a 12.8 sec quarter with road tyres on a cooler day.
you will loose power if intakes are high.
so it wont have like melted my engine or anything? I was bricking it for a while when I seen it... should I get my intercooler checked out?
its funny how a lot of people claim big power in the south of the country, but compared to pips figures on the dynopack, other rr figures look much higher for the same setup.
last time i was down scr, there where 3 other fds there, who where claiming over 300rwhp with print outs, but when it came to the crunch they coudnt get below 14sec 1/4s with good launches and the same 60 fts as me and quick gear changes!!
There is big variations going on between rr roads, only the 1/4 mile times will prove this.
Well I am guessing mine would have been higher without the high intake temp so I dunno how accurate either of the rolling roads are.
I was just worried it could have done something nasty.
Dont worry it wont have done anything, if it had you would know something about it by now :)
Its just when the temps are high it can increase the chance of detonation, and this can be a one hit wonder with rotaries.
If you have a PFC and commander i like to monitor the air temps on there, only time you tend to get high temps is either a high boost situ like track day (how well the temps stay down will depend on your intercooler), or when your sitting in traffic (or on a dyno, or queue for a drag strip) and everything starts to get heat soaked.
I dont have a commander, need to get one but unsure where to get one and what one i need for my model of ecu.
Thanks for your answer youve probably allowed me to sleep tonight! lol
lol, what year is your car, there are 3 types of commander for FD, from memory there are for 92-96, 96-98, and 98+.
If you have a 96 car that can prove the awkard year (as I found out!) as you have to doubly make sure you have the right one!
If you do a search there should be a few threads on here showing serial numbers for correct numbers, somewhere like Nengun should have them listed for specific years aswell, or any of the vendors will sort you out.
Quote from: stuart wizyits funny how a lot of people claim big power in the south of the country, but compared to pips figures on the dynopack, other rr figures look much higher for the same setup.
last time i was down scr, there where 3 other fds there, who where claiming over 300rwhp with print outs, but when it came to the crunch they coudnt get below 14sec 1/4s with good launches and the same 60 fts as me and quick gear changes!!
There is big variations going on between rr roads, only the 1/4 mile times will prove this.
I dont think the strip is a good place to compare rolling road figures (mine was tuned down south). The driving has a lot to do with it. Also, the torque figures which no one seems to think about. The peak final BHP is pub talk. But even when running up the strip you can still see over 1 second differences between each run.
Its an 92\' model. Ive seen serial numbers etc when searching before but was unsure where would sell a commander on its own, been watching ebay but nothing has came up. I think I really should get one now though.
rolling roads differ. dyno dynamics dynos are a low inertia dyno with eddy current braking. Other dynos (like dynojet) tend to be inertia dyno: basically using heavy flywheels to give a linear resistance to motion.
Dyno dynamics dynos have a constant load mode in order to do a power run: acceleration is set and the torque acting against the brakes is read, and recorded. Inertia dynos fix the revolution speed at each point: hence the many readings you have on the ava printout, each of these was a point at which the car was driven at steady speed.
The problem with this is that you dont get a true dynamic response, transient fueling is more difficult to get spot on and the momentum in certain components isnt accounted for. AVA readouts are smoother as each point is tested and the lines joined, whilst dyno dynamics readouts are true and show flat spots and areas of unsure mapping.
Doing a dyno run on a dyno dynamics dyno is more realistic as it is closer to what you experience when accelerating on the road, and not just joining the dots.
dyno dynamics dynos have integral and very well controlled correction sensors for inlet air etc, others, i have heard are easier to tamper with.
it might go some way to explaining some of the discrepancies
Quote from: CallyI dont have a commander, need to get one but unsure where to get one and what one i need for my model of ecu.
Thanks for your answer youve probably allowed me to sleep tonight! lol
http://www.nengun.com/catalogue/product/143 seems a good buy
Yeah my mate linked me up with that last night, just gotta find out about import tax on it.
Another question, if I was to fit a FMIC would I need to get my apexi remapped or would it be ok to leave the map?
anyone know? As I am unsure if anyone maps rx7s up here...
It\'s always good to get the car mapped with any mods.
A front mount by it\'self would not necessarily require a remap, as the apexi will read the lower intake temps and therefore inject more fuel, however if you want to get the most from your car you really should get it mapped.
Another place to get the Commander - RHD will happily lower value for invoice therefore less/no import duty (https://www.rhdjapan.com/shop/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=1633)
Also, the changeover point from single to twin turbo is 4500rpm only if full throttle is used. If partial throttle is used, then the changeover point differs. Could be one reason why that point is not evident.
Quote from: nikpAlso, the changeover point from single to twin turbo is 4500rpm only if full throttle is used. If partial throttle is used, then the changeover point differs. Could be one reason why that point is not evident.
Oh is it? you dont happen to know by how much, upper limit at which second turbo cuts in would be very handy, I may even give you some reputation points....