Firstly hi all, just got my first rex and very pleased with it. And no doubt I will be on the forums a fair bit now.
As well as cosmetic mods, it has a full decat, airfilter, stock twin turbo, front mount, Pressure reg and fuel pump, and Apexi ECU.
The ECU allegadly has a generic map for these mods, and I know ideally I should get a live rolling road map.
But in the meantime I would welcome some help.
The car seems to be running very rich both on idle and on full chat you can smell the fuel.
The car itself is running fine, but think its running rich, which it better than lean but still not ideal and if anything like a piston car is probably loosing power.
If anyone has similar or the same mods as me. What should I been seeing when I go into the injector settings menu? same question on the boost ?.
I\'m not looking for the map cell settings at this stage, just what I should be seeing on the main injector setting and main boost setting ?.
Any help much appreciated.
Oh and what is an acceptable knock count on a RX7 ?. Obviously no knock would be good but as what point should I be worried.
Rob
If its using the base map it will be running very rich for security so the car will still run but not at 100%, unless its already been mapped in which case its another problem...
Rob......
Please get yourself off to one of the vendors above and get it mapped mate,
1. You\'ll LOVE the difference in power and driveability!!
2. You KNOW it\'s safe.
Running rick can be as dangerous as running lean !! Ask Blitzboy who\'s engine failed due to too rich a map a couple of weekends ago !!
hth
I will get it mapped, and it is currently running a map that is not stock and a copy of a map from another car that matches my mods.
I will get it properly done in time, but my question remains. I am curently seeing the following
In the boost settings:
1. Pr 0.80kg/cm2 56%
sc 0.70kg/cm2 64%
2. Pr 0.95kg/cm2 62%
sc 0.95kg/cm2 70%
And in the injector data:
Fr-pr 100% 0.00m/s
fr-sc 0.00m/s
Rr-Pr 100% 0.00m/s
Rr-Sc 0.00m/s
Q - Pr 550cc
Q- Sc 850cc
Is this what others have with the same mods that I have got, i.e Decat, Front mount, uprated fuel pump. The 100% in the injector data worries me at 100% and get the feeling this should be less.
It would help if i could understand what the figures are that I am looking at in the injector data section ?
anyone else ?
that looks like a base map to me, correct injectors set as high as they can for safety and standard boost (if .80kg/cm2 means .8 bar) of .8 primary and .7 secondary. I would not touch boost setting 2 yet, running .95 bar boost without a proper tune will be interesting. (and very short-lived!)
I wouldnt have a clue how you would drop the fuelling, but my advice would be to leave it be and keep your right foot under control until you can get it mapped.
I had a car running the wrong map (actually wrong ECU but you get the idea), it was booked in to be tuned but one moment of lead footedness cost me over £3000 for a rebuild.
Lets try this from a different angle. If I had a wideband, what AFR should I being seeing on a Rex?
Thx
Quote from: RobEVo5Lets try this from a different angle. If I had a wideband, what AFR should I being seeing on a Rex?
Thx
have been surfing and found my own answer to this one.
high 14\'s up to "0 PSI" AKA atmospheric pressure (1 BAR)
mid 12\'s up to 6 PSI (1.4 - 1.5 BAR)
mid 11\'s up to 14.5 PSI (2 BAR) and above.
But any one, help with my original question ?.
Been reading the handcontroller PDF after dowloading. And looks like these settings are right. this part of the setting allows you to alter the injector pulse and lag to allow for larger injectors should they be installed. 100% is the default value for standard injectors which I have so feeling a bit happier again now.
Still don\'t answer why it running so rich, looks like I better start looking at map cell values now, and either get myself a wideband, and just find someone local to me who can map.
unless you put a wideband on it you cannot be sure if its running Rich, I would advise against taking fuel out using the commander as you will end up with a lumpy fuel map, you need someone with a datalogit and wideband so you can log proper values against the cells.
I would only advise mid 11\'s afrs on high boost if you are running water injection, high 10\'s is safer as you have a safety margin against a bad tank of fuel or high intake air temps. Trust me I have learned the hard way.
I tune my car with a datalogit and wideband and I tune for high tens on boost up to 1 BAR (~14 psi) on twins, anymore boost then that you will need WI
Quote from: BlitzBoyunless you put a wideband on it you cannot be sure if its running Rich, I would advise against taking fuel out using the commander as you will end up with a lumpy fuel map, you need someone with a datalogit and wideband so you can log proper values against the cells.
I would only advise mid 11\'s afrs on high boost if you are running water injection, high 10\'s is safer as you have a safety margin against a bad tank of fuel or high intake air temps. Trust me I have learned the hard way.
I tune my car with a datalogit and wideband and I tune for high tens on boost up to 1 BAR (~14 psi) on twins, anymore boost then that you will need WI
Thanks - Just ordered myself LC-1 wideband, and have laptop. So will do some real time logs and see whats going on, and may get brave and try changing on handcontroller to lean out if its super rich as I suspect.
The logwork2 software looks ideal for a novice mapper, and someone that can\'t really be looking at a dash mount display and driving hard as the same time. The ability to log and save a run is great, and should see very quickly whats going on.
I come from a very modified subaru running apexi, so know a little about mapping on handcontroller and know someone thats maps subaru\'s for a part time living who is willing to map my REX, but will see how I get on myself first. For this side of things is half the fun of owning the car. You only learn by trying and asking, just need to be careful I don\'t get two carried away though.
Quote from: BlitzBoyunless you put a wideband on it you cannot be sure if its running Rich, I would advise against taking fuel out using the commander as you will end up with a lumpy fuel map, you need someone with a datalogit and wideband so you can log proper values against the cells.
I would only advise mid 11\'s afrs on high boost if you are running water injection, high 10\'s is safer as you have a safety margin against a bad tank of fuel or high intake air temps. Trust me I have learned the hard way.
I tune my car with a datalogit and wideband and I tune for high tens on boost up to 1 BAR (~14 psi) on twins, anymore boost then that you will need WI
Here what you say on full boost and will take your advice. Would you say 12 up to 6 psi about right ?
thx
Rob
yes up to 12 afr on 6psi
Also look at your injector duty as well if you going to increase boost as this is the easiest way to pop an engine past 85% duty you are playing russian roulette.
I would urge you to buy a datalogit to map the apexi properly though because then you will be able to see what actual cells you are hitting on the map using the ghost map tracer
Thanks again Blitzboy - Datalogit defo on the list to get.
Just want to see what fueling is doing first, and then go from there. 85% inj Duty is interesting and worth knowing, I know the scooby boys were and are running in the 90\'s on the injector duty and seem to be getting away with it. I was only running 65% at the time, but then I did have 740\'cc V\'s the tiny original 380cc\'s.
I guess the rex has the potential of greater spikes due to atmospherics etc, and in danger of spiking 100%+ which as you say ain\'t good.
Will post under seperate cover unless you can answer this one ?. Is there a definative answer to what is acceptable knock. Have read various threads and heard 60 is acceptable, again using the Scoobs as a comparison 30 on a scoob was considered to be in very dangerous territory. Whats your thoughts ?
I am seeing knock counts of around 14 on just cruising around, very wary of booting it at the moment, so have not looked on full chat and probably won\'t until I have the wideband in place.
The knock readings all depend on the state of the sensor, some really modified Fds have the sensor disabled , a noisy car can give false readings. with a proper working sensor up to 70 is safe and normal, anything past this is very dangerous. But i have seen soem seriously noisey and stiff suspension Fds given knock readings in excess of 100 with no ill effects.
So my advice here is do not use the knock sensor as tuning tool on a rotary just as a warning device.
Wideband and EGTs tuning is the way forward
Quote from: BlitzBoyWideband and EGTs tuning is the way forward
What !!! and no Detcans ??
IMHO you need to calibrate the Knock output with a set of Detcans i.e when you start to here a tinkle on the detcans, thats what you use as your knock limit/danger threshold.
Nobody with highpower Rotaries tunes with Detcans its not like a piston engine, any real knock or in your word "tinkle" will blow the engine straight away you dont get a second chance hence why nobody tunes with detcans
I assume they have a Knock Sensor as standard.
If that\'s the case and what your saying is true, then whats the point of having one.
How do you manage to tune for optimum timing, there must be a rule of thumb EGT value to aim for then ??
Got wideband plumbed into day and using the logworks software which is great. Looks like my suspicions were correct and running very rich across the range.
Tickover was about 11, mid range 12, and top 10\'s.
I ran out of time earlier after intially just playing with tickover before I took it for a run. Earlier I was just trying to get the tickover to 14.7 but was proving difficult. As soon as I get past the low 13\'s the idle starts to get slightly lumpy. Pretty sure its running standard injectors....... any thing else I can tweak or change to help in the idle area
Will try pulling back the injector duty which should hopefully balance the complete map, but don\'t think this enable me to get an 14.7.
Any pointers ?
Noticed car is only pulling 0.64 boost as well. but will leave that alone until I can get the fueling sorted. Good news is its running very rich and underboosting, yet still feels VERY quick. So very exited at the prospect of getting it sorted.
Quote from: Scott.TI assume they have a Knock Sensor as standard.
If that\'s the case and what your saying is true, then whats the point of having one.
How do you manage to tune for optimum timing, there must be a rule of thumb EGT value to aim for then ??
The knock sensor on standard twins non modified RX is used as warning and nothing else when it senses a certain level of noise it pulls back the timing and boost on a "standard ecu" as there is no extra noise from a modfied exhaust to interfere with it etc etc. On an Apexi issue it will not retard the ignition it will just flash the heat light
Yes there is optium timing for different levels of tune and porting, also optimum EGTs as well as afrs, there is certain figures to shoot for with and without WI, but im not going to tell all my secrets but u can do a search and find nominal safe values
Quote from: RobEVo5Got wideband plumbed into day and using the logworks software which is great. Looks like my suspicions were correct and running very rich across the range.
Tickover was about 11, mid range 12, and top 10\'s.
I ran out of time earlier after intially just playing with tickover before I took it for a run. Earlier I was just trying to get the tickover to 14.7 but was proving difficult. As soon as I get past the low 13\'s the idle starts to get slightly lumpy. Pretty sure its running standard injectors....... any thing else I can tweak or change to help in the idle area
Will try pulling back the injector duty which should hopefully balance the complete map, but don\'t think this enable me to get an 14.7.
Any pointers ?
Noticed car is only pulling 0.64 boost as well. but will leave that alone until I can get the fueling sorted. Good news is its running very rich and underboosting, yet still feels VERY quick. So very exited at the prospect of getting it sorted.
Tickover is rich, aim for about 13-13.5 afr if you go towards 14.7 it will get lumpy and wont idle well. I am assuming when u say pulling back injector duty you are talking about changing the fuel correction cells? if you are messing about in a different section of the commander menu STOP!
Quote from: BlitzBoyTickover is rich, aim for about 13-13.5 afr if you go towards 14.7 it will get lumpy and wont idle well. I am assuming when u say pulling back injector duty you are talking about changing the fuel correction cells? if you are messing about in a different section of the commander menu STOP!
Thats good new then in a way as I can get 13-13.5 no problem with a smooth idle. But was targeting 14.7 in consideration of when it comes to MOT time and what should be the optimum. Oh well might just have to find myself a kind MOT station when the time comes.
With regards to the fuel - Yes was initially adjusting the fuel cells in the map, but once I noticed it was rich across the entire fuel map. I thought about going to the primary and secondary injector duty section to change the value from 100% to less, much the same as you would if you put in larger injectors.
I figured this would be a quicker way of leaning across the range rather than decreasing what would likely need to be every fuel cell value.
Quote from: BlitzBoyThe knock sensor on standard twins non modified RX is used as warning and nothing else when it senses a certain level of noise it pulls back the timing and boost on a "standard ecu" as there is no extra noise from a modfied exhaust to interfere with it etc etc. On an Apexi issue it will not retard the ignition it will just flash the heat light
Yes there is optium timing for different levels of tune and porting, also optimum EGTs as well as afrs, there is certain figures to shoot for with and without WI, but im not going to tell all my secrets but u can do a search and find nominal safe values
Thanks for the info, but I am well aware of the Knock correction ability of a Standard ECU and lack of it in an Apexi, as I run one in my own car (not a RX7).
How do RX7\'s manage to get through the MOT (incl. CAT test for Post 93) if they idle at 13.5AFR I would of thought that would be certain to fail.
I have found posts regarding AFR and cruise at 14-14.5 seems to be mentioned, but from what you say, not at idle.
Here you go Rob, some quotes from other sites :
Quote :"rotaries do not like to idle under 12.6AFR, you are misunderstanding stochiometric values, those are based mainly on piston engines and for cruising light load applications.
with a good catalytic converter and airpump blowing on it then toss AFR values out the window, lean it out til it just starts to want to hunt/misfire/die at idle then richen it up a tad and that should be good for emissions testing basis."
Quote :Leaning out too far in vacuum will just cause stuttering and rougness. Going much leaner than stoich may start to make your emissions worse. It\'s kind of a shot in the dark without a wideband O2.
Here is some info by Chuck and Kyle (PFC tuning GURUs) about how lean you can go...
In previous posts this year, Kyle and I have mentioned about adjusting transistion areas. In fact if you were to read all of our posts, you would have volume two and know all we know.
(1) cruise should be set for best smoothness plus mileage. This is P5 to P6 normally. Set high 15AFRs to low 16AFRs.
(2) P10 is 0 vacuum/boost, go for 14.7AFR, stoich.
(3) For P7 - P9, taper between (1) value and 14.7AFR, or set all the same as cruise. If you look at your boost gauge, when you floor the throttle from cruise, your boost gauge goes instantly from vacuum to 0 + boost, So in reality, P7 - P9
are useless unless you find a place where you can cruise at 100+ mph. Yes in Germany you would use these.
(4) Your P16 and P17 are way too rich. Go about 11.5AFR for P17 if you have a large IC.
(5) For P11 - P16 taper the AFR from 14.7 to 11.5AFRs. I\'ll do these using simple logic. Since stoich (14.7) is about ideal for normal driving and power, we will set 0psi at that then richen up linerally until we hit our first tuned boost area of P17.
P10 14.7
P11 14.5
P12 14.0
P13 13.5
P14 13.0
P15 12.5
P16 12.0
P17 11.5
(6) idle ~14 AFR
Unless you can afford to dyno power tune all P rows, this is your best bet.
Cheers M8, so looks like perhaps 13-13.5 afr on idle is ok then on a rotary (bloody odd engines these and not like a piston engine at al). I am getting stoich on cruise, its just the idle.
nothing like old school methods, but its now been taken from 11\'s on idle to 13\'s on idle, which has made the difference between it stinking of petrol on idle to more like what I would expect. If I had taken the plugs out before and after I bet I would have noticed a difference as well.