So peeps can someone explain to me, the advantages/disadvantages of methanol injection over water injection here’s what I’ve got so far:
+Has the cooling affect of water injection but you get an increase in power for (free?)
+increases octane level
-corrodes anything that isn’t stainless (I take it this includes seals but what about housings/rotors does is significantly shorten there life span?
where do you fit the tank?
What % increase have you got from methanol
Cheers Neil
blitzboy, where are you, i wouldnt mind knowing a bit more about this.
You normally mix it with water - say upto 50/50 ratio.
If you go much higher then the octane changes are quite high - and you will need to map for them.
The methanol helps stop the water freezing, as well as contributing to the cooling and the power. The other thing to bear in mind is that the pump may not be rated to pump pure methanol, so you have to watch that !!
Methanol should not be that corrosive - but it may eat rubber/synthetic seals if left in permanent contact.
I bought a kit from Coolingmist.com and am having it fitted by RE:Worx on monday/tuesday, along with FMIC and few bits so can report back soon enough.
50% water 50% methanol is the mix I will use. The cooling effect is a good safety device to minimise detonation, whilst giving good power increase also.
Methanol inj has been done and fully tested here in the UK by some friends of mine. Sadly i dont think either of them post on here any more.
also i think that the vapour becomes toxic above a 50/50 mix.
matt
50/50 mix is about the optimum mix no corrosion problems or methanol fumes to worry about exploding (do you really want pure methanol in a tank in your car one spark and bye bye) when mixed with water in that ratio you get the best of both worlds the methanol evaporates giving low intake temps, and the water vapour which has a much higher specific heat capacity than methanol fetches combustion temps down plus cleans the engine in the process. If your using a methanol mix use a plastic storage tank not aluminium. As regards power increase not many actually map for the water/methanol mix they use it as a bit of insurance against detonation. Theres a long post on Ausrotary if you want to read up on water injection and quite a few on here if you do a search.
Kevin
Now that Methanol is a controlled substance, where do you get it from ?
Quote from: ProfNow that Methanol is a controlled substance, where do you get it from ?
Got mine from the local race fuel supplier £50 for 20us gallons. Its often on sale at drag strips as well Prof. Plus rotaryart supply it.
Kevin
what are the compression charasteristics (sp)? i.e petrol is atomised/vapourissed but how about water wouldn\'t want to turn my engine in to a water pump I know it is a fine spray but can it be compressed enough
in the chamber how much is too much and how much is req. to make a
diiference?
Cat amongst pidgeons time?;)
Paul..
Cheers for the great response (as usual) so what do you think would be an average increase is you added methanol injection?
Neil
without tuning for it 50/50 mix will net around 10bhp along your power curve on boost.
The main advantage with this if done right you can raise your boost way past 1 BAR on 98 octane as this type of mix raises BTUs and is a good det surpression, I\'m aiming for 1.5 BAR with the aid of a progressive controller on the AI
Quote from: Paul-Tllwhat are the compression charasteristics (sp)? i.e petrol is atomised/vapourissed but how about water wouldn\'t want to turn my engine in to a water pump I know it is a fine spray but can it be compressed enough
in the chamber how much is too much and how much is req. to make a
diiference?
Cat amongst pidgeons time?;)
Paul..
Paul dont worry about turning your engine into a water pump, the amounts injected on boost are minimal
The average increse with no proper tuning by somebody who knows how to tune with meth is a 10 % power drop.
With tuning you could gain 25 % ish
There is a surprising lack of knowledge on this thread
QuoteThe average increse with no proper tuning by somebody who knows how to tune with meth is a 10 % power drop.
With tuning you could gain 25 % ish
There is a surprising lack of knowledge on this thread
That is a very impressive gain as for the lack of knowledge i tend not to ask questions i already know the answer to!
[...........
Quote from: sway2003The average increse with no proper tuning by somebody who knows how to tune with meth is a 10 % power drop.
With tuning you could gain 25 % ish
There is a surprising lack of knowledge on this thread
well I saw a power increase without changing my tune at 1 BAR on 50:50 but hey what do I know !! :rollin I only improved my terminal speed by at 6 mph at the quarter mile at 1 bar, must be due to my surprising lack of knowledge
Quote from: sway2003There is a surprising lack of knowledge on this thread
i dont see it as suprising, its a car forum not an astro physics forum....:Nono!
anyway some of us dont need it:burnout
The times when people see power decreases is when they are using pure water and no methonal and the water is quencing the engine eg too much water is being injected
some good discussions on this link and some mis-information dont take all what they say as gospel
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=576000
Quote from: sway2003There is a surprising lack of knowledge on this thread
Re read this in case there was something I missed - don\'t see where the \'surprising lack\' of knowledge is - perhaps it was just a lack and not that surprising, perhaps it was just surprising, or perhaps you were after war and peace on this.
From my read of the thread I got:
1) A lot of people tend to mix Methanol and Water in 50/50 quantities
2) Both Water and Methanol will offer cooling of the intake charge, but water will offer more because of the higher specific heat capacity
3) Methanol in the water will help prevent it freezing in the pipes when the weather gets cold - particularly for boot mounted tank
4) Methanol is combustable, so it will by definition improve on the burn as compared to just water on its own
5) Methanol can be obtained from Race fuel suppliers
6) Blitzboy has real world experience of power gains with Methanol/Water and without having mapped for it.
7) There are two references to info on other sites
If you think I am having a pop :Grrr - then perhaps I am - your comment wasn\'t helpful, seemed to be coming from the I know better school - but I wont tell you, and lets face it there was genuine interest in learning something here - if you want to join in then FFS contribute something without coming over all elitist.:p
It\'s a forum - people discuss things - folk are at different levels of understanding - some have real world experience - some have good book knowledge - some have both - but the idea is to contribute and make all our lives a little better. :cheers :driving
And finally another contribution :
If you were getting a loss of power running WI (with or without meths) then you could be quenching the flame front too much or have a weak spark that is less able to ignite the mixed WI+Meths+Fuel+Air mixture.
The amount of WI+Meths injected and the boost point at which it is introduced might be more critical than changing the fueling for power gains / losses.
here here!!
Well said that man
First Pacer, now Rotary Menace, we are doing a good job of welcoming noobies here lol :flamed
Quote from: strange_days_ukFirst Pacer, now Rotary Menace, we are doing a good job of welcoming noobies here lol :flamed
Yes its a shame when the keyboard warriors hide behind a fictitious name and location. We must apologize for some of the idiots that come on the forum Rotary Menace but on the whole they are in a minority.
Sway2003 shall we edit your location to read northampton area?
Kevin
Lol, you would think people would have better things to do.
Anyway, I have read this thread with interest as hopefully I will be going down the WI route - have decided on 50% 50% mix and I want to map for it :D
Quotestrange_days_uk
First Pacer, now Rotary Menace, we are doing a good job of welcoming noobies here lol
Know one as said anything with an attitude to that I know I think I ask a good valid question.
Hey i tell you what I’ve been a member of quite a few forums and this is by far the best although I don’t actually know that much (besides how do you know im not knowledgeable i could be fifty and be all knowing) i feel that i can contribute and discuses without being flamed as well as asking all the any question that pops in my head (very few do that i can discuses here)
Neil
Quote from: Rotary_MenaceKnow one as said anything with an attitude to that I know I think I ask a good valid question.
Hey i tell you what I’ve been a member of quite a few forums and this is by far the best although I don’t actually know that much (besides how do you know im not knowledgeable i could be fifty and be all knowing) i feel that i can contribute and discuses without being flamed as well as asking all the any question that pops in my head (very few do that i can discuses here)
Neil
Neil ask away thats what the forum is here for! Prof summed it up pretty well any power increase is all in the tune most people are at the moment just using it as a safety margin rather than pushing the envelope but it sounds like there may be some more aggressive tunes about next year.
Kevin
Your all A+ people thanks.
Right im off for a few beers
no ones mentioned this but what about mixing methanol with fuel? i dont know what ratio would be needed to be effective but surely this would mean theres no need for a seperate water injection system. The only draw back i can think of is some will be wasted as you wont always need methanol, say when driving round town etc.
It\'s more about the injection of the water / methanol into the air stream - the fine droplets evaporate very quickly removing heat from the intake charge. If you mix the methanol in the fuel, you wont get that effect.
no, but you\'ll get an increase in Ron number wont you?
Quote from: richard cashno, but you\'ll get an increase in Ron number wont you?
You might well do, but without controlling intake temps you could get detonation, which is really what the WI+Methanol is all about.
Even with a big intercooler, if your not getting good airflow, or your getting heatsoak or sucking in hot air, the intercooler cannot get the temps down as well as WI. That\'s because the water misting is very effective at removing heat from the air - just try standing in the mist from a hose - it\'s cold ! Since the water will evaporate, it passes through the engine and exhaust harmlessly as steam - along with the water liberated from combustion.
Since it comes on only when you are making boost, and therefore increasing the intake temp still further, the amount of water used is less than if it was added all the time to the intake charge. In theory it allows you to run higher boost before det occurs, or run more efficiently with current settings - a cooler charge will make a little more power
Funny methanol mixed with fuel has been mentioned - I was watching a vid about CVT and they where on about using 15% petrol to 85% methanol - but anyway that\'s off topic.
I like the other benefit of WI that helps to keep your engine clean :yes
Mixing it with the fuel could have reliability issues with the fuel pump i\'d imagine.
Kevin
mixing it with fuel will kill tanks, fuel lines etc, unless these are all being replaced with something that is methanol safe it\'s not good. By injecting it in the intake stream either pure or mixed with water it will sufficiently bump up the octane rating, as it\'s the octane rating in the combustion chamber that matters most. Water and methanol injection even though it brings down the air intake temps this is not really what it\'s about, it\'s very effective at reducing combustion temps, water not being a fuel does not burn so you will not get more bhp when injecting water, it does effect the peak cylinder pressure, and remove a load of heat from combustion, so you are able to run more timing and or leaner afr which then give you a increase in power and torque. In my experience water injection has a much greater affect on torque than bhp, due to it\'s affect in delaying peak cylinder pressure. Having the jet placed closer to the throttle body will have more affect on combustion than oplacing the jet just after intercooler pipe. Ideally you want water injection with some kind of controller to meter the amount of water being injected compare to fuel. You also need to work out what percentage of water you will be injkecting in comparison to fuel. Not eneough water will minimize it\'s effectiveness, too much will quench combustion process and will hurt power and torque. It\'s best to have goos quality ignition leads and ignition amp with water injetcion. Many use water as a safety measure i.e no ignition advance no leaner afr, this is ok but it does not harness the potential of water injection. You could run leaner afr and more advance timing with the right water injection setup with increased power and torque while still being safe.
Methanol injection is quite different from water injection in the sense that unlike water it burns in the combustion process, therefore small increases in power and torque can be seen before leaning out afr or advancing timing.
Methanol has a different stoich value athn pump fuel, pump fuel stoich is 14.7:1 methanol has a stoich of 6.4:1, so you can map to the correct afr when injecting 100% or in 50/50 mix methanol due the the different value. This is why it\'s important to calculate the amount of of water meth or straight methanol you will be injecting compared to pump fuel, as you will need this calculation to calculate your new stoich value, in order to get correct afr. Again you can run leaner afr and more ignition advance while still being safe, it helps with your fuelling also as it burns. I have run 1.9 bar on a few occasions on a tomei fuel pump(same as skyline apexi r33 pump) with 850pri 1680 sec due to having additional fuel being supplied by injecting the methanol. Methanol is known to be quite corrosive on it\'s own, but is less hamrful when mixed with water. I had post trubo egt readings of 780c at 1.9 bar. Which I judged would equal approx 900c pre turbo. Once you experiment with water/meth or straight meth and begin to advance the timing and see significant increases in torque and bhp while still having low ait and egt, you will be presently suprised. I personally for different kinds of runs etc would say injecting water methanol would equal a race fuel of 115 ron is it\'s resistance to self combust, but as stated that\'s my view.
:yes quality post mufc
Bit more info on the corrosive nature of Methanol :
Clicky Link (http://www.methanex.com/products/faqs.html)
And Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_fuel) article
what excellent reading - had a chat with kev yorks & arrouk other sunday about going wmi on mine due to lack of cold air feed, looks like i will be booking in with pip shortly to get it fitted when wastegate modified along with uprated fuel pump,additional injectors and a bit of a remap - more £££££££££££ \'s,looking forward to the end result :mmmm
Cool thread guys!
Looks like WI is on the shopping list ;)
A few questions from a noob:
It sounds like it\'d be better to get WI fitted rather than a bigger SMIC for a more profound effect, sound about right?
As I understand it, when you make positive manifold pressure the "norm" is to significantly enrichen the A:F mix, so WI would allow you to lean this off? I\'m also thinking about fuel economy here as it\'s one of the most painful things about these cars!
Finally how much water do you use? Say a 2L tank, how long would that last?
TIA!
Mark