I have only had my 1st gen on the road for a few weeks and I already love it.
That NA 12a sounds the business, it already has a Janspeed exhaust, whats the best way for increasing power?
Big Webber carb? Big ports? what are they like to drive as road cars with big ports and whats recomended for the ultimate road going 12a experience. For one thing I wouldnt mind a few more rpm the 7,000rpm seems a little pitiful.
My FD is bridge ported revs to 9,000 with an HKS T04Z turbine and so beyond being a useable road car, so what do people reckon for getting the most out of that fantastic little bumble bee that is the 12a?
NA is addictive!!! best few hundred quid I have spent in years!
Cheers, Ant.
i completely agree, i have a another gen 1 with springs shocks, brakes and steering all uprated with a couple of minor engine mods and its a hoot to drive. My FC only has 460 FLHP which isnt much compared to yours ant but still OTT for the road.
Best bit is thats it quiet and just keeps on reving.
Pull the engine and do a big street port,then put an IDA Weber on it,with a decent low pressure fuel pump.
The exhaust can stay the same,that should see nearly 200hp at the flywheel with some higher rpm.
Regards
Carl
I drove mine last night, it doesnt appear to have a rev limiter, just the buzzer. Are they ok revving to 7500-8000 rpm (I havent tried that far yet)
Im looking into the IDA webber now, the car has been very cost effective so far so I want to keep it that way. Ill keep my eyes open for the carb and manifold ;)
Street ports are easier to drive around town..........however a bridge ported motor is a lot more fun....:cool Just adapt your driving style in town..go on..pull that motor and cut it..:evillaugh
nice!
Ant, mine has seen 8k easily on the original engine
I reccomend EFI & TII turbo, I\'ve never had such a reliable rotor. Go water injection tho not intercooler - my throttle response is instant, no lag.
If I\'d be in your shoes: build a street or bridge port NA. I agree turbo\'s and EFI do the job, but I NEVER heared anything so good as a rotary sucking air through a set of webers or mikuni\'s. My old 12A had a racing beat exhaust and mikuni carb, and it sounded way better then the current TII I have in the car.
efi and turbo will certainly get you power but it aint cheap!
You want turbo,buy a turbo car,you want nostalgia...have a 1st gen with an IDA on..................:cool
what if you want both? power and nostalgia???
You buy olskoolrotor\'s Rx2 turbo !!!!!!!!!!:Thumbs-up
Quote from: rotary emotionsIf I\'d be in your shoes: build a street or bridge port NA. I agree turbo\'s and EFI do the job, but I NEVER heared anything so good as a rotary sucking air ......
Lil vid clips for you..........
Another possibility has come up ;) so I may be going for that. Ill keep you informed.
Quote from: oldoneLil vid clips for you..........
Thanks! Now this is the new sound:
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=f0a4c5f865c73e637b21097c6a884af3.711284
That\'s my new engine, finally running after two years headscratching...
TII with not much of an exhaust at the moment (straight 70mm pipe right to the back box, which richt now is a stock FB box) Noisy, but not half as addictive as a carbed NA. More powerfull though :Giggle
Cool setup Emotion you got there............its not noisy...:D :cool :cheers
Now this is induction noise at its best........street port 13B.....:D
emotions, you are lucky, you have a left hand drive, otherwise the stock turbo II turbo wont fit without lots of mods..... car looks good.
Era, your red one looks and sounds loverly, i recognise that industrial estate, what sort of power do you get out of yours?
Cmon Ant, spill the beans, what you got in mind???
All being equal,that particular lil motor puts out 184 on the wheels...that particular day at REWORX we had intake manifold leak probs,she was leaning out badly (rear exhaust glowing cherry)....only made 168 on the wheels.Had to redo intake manifold and fuel system at home ..:mad:
I have decided to sell my 1st gen (im just buying another one with a turbo ;) )
NA is cool but rather than spend spend spend on the car I have I got offered another with about 200bhp as it is ;) Should be fun.
is it a 12a turbo or 13b? you will have put up some pics when you get it
Im keeping it secret. ;) Will post pics when I get it.
Ohhh think I might know which one it is, he he. Coooool
:cheers
You do eh? :) Im gonna pick it up next week.
Quote from: antnicukemotions, you are lucky, you have a left hand drive, otherwise the stock turbo II turbo wont fit without lots of mods..... car looks good.
QUOTE]
I thought all that was needed to fit the TII engine in a RHD chassis was a special manifold? I saw those on several australian sites, don\'t remember where right now. It simply moves the turbo forward a bit, so it clears the steering box etc. All that\'d be needed above that would be the hoses running to the IC (which would be replaced by a front mount anyway ;) ), as those would be misaligned. But that seems a small problem.
Or am I forgetting something here???
That\'s the difference between the left and right hand chassis... There\'s also the sump, front plate mod, and if you\'re going with the T2 gearbox, the gearbox mounting. I\'ve been told that by rotating the manifold 180 degrees, and resizing two of the holes, it can be mounted without a new manifold...
Sump? You use a GSL-SE sump, can\'t be different LHD or RHD, can it?
Front plate must not be modified: you use a 12A (or old style 13B if you can get one) front cover, bolts on no problem. The gearbox is a problem: I have a stock 12A box right now, a FC NA is ready to goi n as it\'s a bit stronger. When time and money permits, I\'d go for a TII box too, but the main problem there is the driveshaft. You must have a custom driveshaft to connect the TII box with the first gen diff.
Getting the TII engine in as such is very straight forward: a simple matter of swapping front cover and sump. The bracket must be lenghted a bit (20mm) to allow the stock engine mounts to be used (one needs a little modification).
One important thing is making an oildrain in the front cover. Not very hard, but shouldn\'t be forgotten.
the manifold has a T3 or T4 flange, the stock turbo II has a unique one if remember correctly
The GSL-SE sump is amazingly rare - because so many people have put 13BT into a first gen!! *grin*
Sorry, by Front plate, I meant Front cover - which needs to be modded to include the oil drain and bracket mod, as you described...
I was told about the manifold by a dude on Aus Rotary who\'s done this conversion - it\'d be interesting to see if this is possible, and I think I\'d have to see it first...
try some aussie sites, should come up with something.
the manifold I found on one of those sites was not for a T3 or T4, but to use a stock TII turbo in a RHD chassis.
The front cover only needs the oildrain, that\'s not difficult. I had a block of alu welded on, then drilled and tapped for a AN10 connector.
GSL-SE sumps can be ordered new in europe, no problem. I payed about £100 for mine, but that\'s better then importing a used one from the USA.
Stop,stop!!!!,
what happen to good old N/A,
not a another bl**dy turbo talk!!,It\'s for girls:eek:
Real men talk N/A:yes
If it\'s me, sell FD and buy 20B and modify into N/A( easy 350hp+ ).
Install into FB or maybe FC!! and strenghten the back end.
listen to the rotary music!
Cool!:D
Quote from: ian duncanStop,stop!!!!,
what happen to good old N/A,
not a another bl**dy turbo talk!!,It\'s for girls:eek:
Real men talk N/A:yes
If it\'s me, sell FD and buy 20B and modify into N/A( easy 350hp+ ).
Install into FB or maybe FC!! and strenghten the back end.
listen to the rotary music!
Cool!:D
Agreed, this discussion is not about engines with silly turbines on its about good old fashioned carbs and stuff.
Im sorry to say my NA is getting replaced by a turbo FB with 200bhp, BUT it still has a Weber carb ;) and its still a proper job 12a.
Ant.
OOOOhhh sounds very cool Ant. Are ya gonna tell us a wee bit more than that though? kinda rude to keep people hanging on for the good info:)
cheers, michael.
so is it a draw through weber or blow through???
Was there a category for N/A rotors at Rotorstock this year? Would be sweet to have an N/A 1/4 mile board for ALL MOTOR glory. Maybe the mods could make it a sticky in the 1/4 mile times forum. Show the turbo boys what our engines are capable of without lag and miles of ducting. (not that i dislike turbo\'s or anything :Laugh )
I think that Era had the fastest did he not! rapid little car that and not a turbo in sight.
cheers, michael.
Quote from: DominicWas there a category for N/A rotors at Rotorstock this year? Would be sweet to have an N/A 1/4 mile board for ALL MOTOR glory. Maybe the mods could make it a sticky in the 1/4 mile times forum. Show the turbo boys what our engines are capable of without lag and miles of ducting. (not that i dislike turbo\'s or anything :Laugh )
I was going to put up a trophy for last years events ... must chase up they guy who was meant to be polishing the trophy
*update ... not done and I need to find somewhere else that will do it
Hehe I think its a blow through. The car.... ...ah well ok ill tell you its an ultra rare Janspeed turbo :) picking it up early next week, may take it to Trax :)
Looks beautiful, and its in great condition. Must be just about the rarest of all the 1st gen varieties. On a bonus point one of our customers was one of the people that designed it :)
The meister, Tim himself (I call him sensei) has dragged it out for me, I was drooling over it after I saw it in his big back shed. I am tempted to go for another NA one sometime but its gone on hold now this car came up.
Cheers, Ant.
Nice one Ant, for a moment there I thought you had your eyes on the red 1st gen turbo at WGT but a Janspeed Turbo is Gold Dust.... never seen one before but have heard good things.
Yeah, expect its a blow through if its got a Weber.
Another interesting 1st gen in the club. :cheers
.[url]http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-21969.html
Be cool if we had a N\\a section for next years RS...wont be running the 7 though as the next project is under wayyyyyyyyyyy.......run turbo if you like but its gotta be carbo turbo..no fuel injection....however we will have to put some ballast on then.....heheheheheheh
Well, if I did the whole project again, I\'d go carbed too. EFI is all cool and so, but electronics are so boring. A carb at least is a real machine.
I\'d love a Peripheral Port carbed monster. Well, my NSU Ro80 is carbed and PP, but hardly a monster :D
Wish I join the rotary fun down south, but boy!, long way from Aberdeen!!.
(100mile to 4 gallon/20L tank with 2x20L jerrycan in board)
You lucky sod!!! how cool is that going to be?!! I saw a HKS version of the same kit in oz and was a very nice piece of period engineering. Woul dlove to check it out in the flesh some day. Get some photos up asap.
cheers, michael.
Theres a chap in California making some really good power with a 12a and a blow through weber. I lost track of where he was at the moment but it was certainly close to, if not over 700 (American ;) ) horsepower. A lot of the top cars in Puerto Rico were still running blow through carb setups up to very recently as well (IIRC)
this is the chap from the US http://www.rx7club.com/member.php?find=lastposter&t=513911
Robert was way over 700hp (US) last time I read about his "little" 12A. Don\'t remember the exact figures either, but let\'s say you need to bring a real big FD to win from him!
Sounds a bit like trying to beat the new japanese 16valve bikes with old Brittish steel. A lost cause. Just give in & get with the technology boys. In the end you cant win sticking with NA....
Whilst I think that you have a point to some degree Don, I think that I have definately seen quite a few N/A rotors that would give your car a good thrashing.
cheers, michael.
Quote from: Don PamponiSounds a bit like trying to beat the new japanese 16valve bikes with old Brittish steel. A lost cause. Just give in & get with the technology boys. In the end you cant win sticking with NA....
Having never owned a turbo car before, I\'m not really in a fair position to comment but for me, I prefer the challenge of squeezing as much power as possible out of a non turbo car and learning more about the engine itself rather than the bits you bolt onto it. Also prefer the idea of a car that can be fixed by tinkering in the engine bay rather than on a laptop.
All said though, it would be good fun to play around with EFI and Microtech on an old schooler but no way got that kind of coinage right now.
Really like the idea of a Renesis engine in an old school mazda. Easy 200-240bhp and a lot more possible without a turbo. The photo below is from the Yaw Power website and is a Renesis motor being built up for the Speed World Challenge GT Class. No exact dyno results are stated but there is mention of 450hp. Personally i\'d be more than happy with the power from the stock Rx8 motor. The
real technology is in the engine.
Ooooooh thats a bit lovely!
Quote from: Don PamponiSounds a bit like trying to beat the new japanese 16valve bikes with old Brittish steel. A lost cause. Just give in & get with the technology boys. In the end you cant win sticking with NA....
Of course you are right. BUT let\'s face it: when it comes down to it, you can\'t beat a 20B with a 13BT either (if both are tuned to the max). And then again, a four rotor has more possibilities again. There\'s always something faster, more powerfull. The big question is how does it feel?
Cars are not about reasonable thinking, they are all about the heart. It has to feel right. Of course a hypermodern renesis makes more power in NA form then a 12A with a Weber. But have you ever listened to one??? It sounds like a bee that\'s buzzing in a bottle. You hardly notice it.
Gone are the smell, the sound, the feel of a carbed NA engine.
The search for power in a tiny rotary engine, on carbs is on holy case, and the the result is less important then the road that leads to it.
Quote from: DominicHaving never owned a turbo car before, I\'m not really in a fair position to comment but for me, I prefer the challenge of squeezing as much power as possible out of a non turbo car and learning more about the engine itself rather than the bits you bolt onto it. Also prefer the idea of a car that can be fixed by tinkering in the engine bay rather than on a laptop.
All said though, it would be good fun to play around with EFI and Microtech on an old schooler but no way got that kind of coinage right now.
Really like the idea of a Renesis engine in an old school mazda. Easy 200-240bhp and a lot more possible without a turbo. The photo below is from the Yaw Power website and is a Renesis motor being built up for the Speed World Challenge GT Class. No exact dyno results are stated but there is mention of 450hp. Personally i\'d be more than happy with the power from the stock Rx8 motor. The real technology is in the engine.
Where can i order one!!
i considered the turbo route when replacing the engine in my gen 1, having had turbo cars before i know the benifits (and the problems) so decided on a weber 45 with a ported 13b 4 port, ok it wont do 160mph but (when the carbs fitted!!) will pull off at the light nicley and the sound will be great after all my licence nearly speaks welsh so it great having 300bhp but how much trouble does it get you into!
i know its a personal opion but when the weber is fitted the engine will look clean and simple and should produce 160 - 180bhp? more than enough for a 20 year old car and still plenty of fun
Mark
Actually it might not do 160mph, but it\'ll come damn close to it! As said before: my 12A (stock inside!) with a RB full exhaust system (love that sound) and Mikuni did over 230km/h for sure (speedo was off in the way that it showed less then real speed, not good with speed cameras!!!) . Living close to Germany has advantages ;)
Quote from: rotary emotionsCars are not about reasonable thinking, they are all about the heart. It has to feel right. Of course a hypermodern renesis makes more power in NA form then a 12A with a Weber. But have you ever listened to one??? It sounds like a bee that\'s buzzing in a bottle. You hardly notice it.
Gone are the smell, the sound, the feel of a carbed NA engine. QuoteSure, the Renesis is quiet and refined in the Rx8, but thats got a lot to do with the xhaust and emissions gubbins. The engine block isn\'t all that dissimilar to the 12a and 13b with the exception of the exhaust ports. Mazda have done great things with the inlet manifold to improve flow. Take a Renesis with a 3 into 1 header, single precilencer and rear muffler and I bet it would sound like Pavarotti in the bathroom. :cool
Dom,You means" Flatulence " in the bathroom? :rolleyes:
Anybody can make good horsepower with turbo and N2o,but not everybody can make good horsepower with a normal carby motor.It takes skill and understanding to do the porting to produce the power.I could easily go and get a turbo car and have the horsepower,but its takes great satisfaction to pull the motor,port it and run it....experiment with it.
Maybe thats why Im old school.....like my wife says....if you got a cheque book and a FD you think you are cool.....however if you are old school and make it yourself,YOU are really cool !!! From a high tech woman............
Well, that\'s a very good opinion your wife has!
I see them on the street everyday overhere, these guys who think they run a sportscar just because the spend some big €€€ on something like a VW Golf or Peugeot 206/306. Most of them think The fast and the furious is a realistic movie (sure, did you ever have YOUR floor falling off because of the HP you have???) and never even disassambled an engine, let alone BUILD one.
I wish I had time and money to build a really nice old school project. Maybe a PP first gen, or an RX-3.
A danish friend of mine even build his own Peripheral Port housings! Now that\'s the spirit!
Oldone,
Well said!!, like myself, i build myself and win few sprint races( came 1st in class in two days events at RAF lossiemouth and very pleased).
See vido at " pistonhead" webset "Lossie sprint" 23+24th july 2006 at RAF airfield.
Westfield car entry the pit after finished the run, at first left side is an white FC( bit poor pict) as it\'s not shown my car running, just stood there. good vido about westfields too. Must see!!.
Cannot vido in this Forum!
Well i drove the 12a turbo yesterday and I have to say it has almost nothing in common with the NA. OK the weber badly needs setting up as its flat as fduk on full throttle with the second choke (I havent a clue how to adjust this :cry:) it has huge low down torque, it sounds far more muffled and there is no point revving past 6000rpm. The car looks awesome.
In a lot of ways I prefer the NA, but whatever way you look at it, with the amount of exhaust gas a rotary puts out, they are made for turbocharging!
Im still gonna make sure to get a nice ported weber equipped 12a sooner or later ;)
Went up Sainsbury\'s this morn for some shopping,filled the back up with beer and bits,blasted down a b road with a forking smile on my face....:D when I use the wenches car...I cant even put on the radio(cos dont know where the on\\off switch is) and it wont let me race cos of all the contols that drive the car,,I need to drive the car,not let it drive itself...:3Confused make sense..:Typing
Well said that man! Lets face it - there are far easier & cheaper ways of going fast than buying 20 year old rotaries, but is much else out there with such interesting style?
Quote from: A7NTYWell i drove the 12a turbo yesterday and I have to say it has almost nothing in common with the NA. OK the weber badly needs setting up as its flat as fduk on full throttle with the second choke (I havent a clue how to adjust this :cry:) it has huge low down torque, it sounds far more muffled and there is no point revving past 6000rpm. The car looks awesome.
Yes I know the feeling!!! seems odd changing gear with a few 1000 rpm left to go to keep the power on. atleast you have an lntercooler to help things. will be interesting to see how you get on with this setup
any photos yet???
I have just found these....
http://www.rxmotors.co.uk/fb.php
It looks terrible in those photos, really doesnt do it any justice. Ill take some on Tuesday when im back at work :)
I couldnt resist going and taking some pictures this evening :D
Not sure if you can all see this as its on FDUK, if you cant let me know and ill post the thread on here.
http://www.fduk.org/forum/showthread.php?p=41072#post41072
no, we need to be a member to see them
ok;
Pictures arent perfect as it was in low light early this evening.
(http://www.stertegarage.com/janspeedturbo/1.jpg)
(http://www.stertegarage.com/janspeedturbo/2.jpg)
(http://www.stertegarage.com/janspeedturbo/3.jpg)
(http://www.stertegarage.com/janspeedturbo/4.jpg)
(http://www.stertegarage.com/janspeedturbo/5.jpg)
(http://www.stertegarage.com/janspeedturbo/6.jpg)
(http://www.stertegarage.com/janspeedturbo/7.jpg)
(http://www.stertegarage.com/janspeedturbo/8.jpg)
(http://www.stertegarage.com/janspeedturbo/9.jpg)
(http://www.stertegarage.com/janspeedturbo/10.jpg)
(http://www.stertegarage.com/janspeedturbo/11.jpg)
(http://www.stertegarage.com/janspeedturbo/12.jpg)
I see what you mean, in the other photos it looks a bit neglected, but that looks in fine fettle, what boost pressure does it run with the intercooler and blow through setup??
WOW!!, very nice car, real Rx-7
Quote from: alban1973I see what you mean, in the other photos it looks a bit neglected, but that looks in fine fettle, what boost pressure does it run with the intercooler and blow through setup??
not sure as the gauge isnt plumbed in, meant to be 7psi. Geffs gonna have a crack at setting it up week after next.
cool, never seen much of what lurks under the bonnet before. Any idea what sort of weber it is ? lools like a DGAS or a DCNF ?
Mike, no I would love to know myself, there is practically no info available on this car anywhere it seems. Its not a big carb, perhaps geff can tell us better when he sets it up.
Cool car dude....:InLove :3gears-rh ...happy miles !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:Thumbs-up
I must admit to being rather jealous. Thats a fine machine (I wonder if its as fast as mine?) :)
Dose it have an LSD?
Very cool car mate!!! looks in top nick too. Would also like to know what size carb that is. I have visions of a 48mm downdraft but very interesting to see something different.
cheers for the photos. Please keep us all up to date with how a tune up goes etc.
cheers, michael.
Quote from: Don PamponiI must admit to being rather jealous. Thats a fine machine (I wonder if its as fast as mine?) :)
Dose it have an LSD?
Its nowhere near as fast as yours mate :)
At the moment it feel more like 100bhp rather than 200 :D
Will keep you informed as it gets tuned.
Wicked car, and another TWR bodykit..... sweet :cheers . Haven\'t seen that rear wing before, it looks the business.
Interested to see what she\'ll do when properly set up