This has been going on for a while now...sorry for the length but i think its better to explain the entire situation...
Firstly Engine Spec is:
Street Port
FMIC
Feed Rad
HKS Filters
Full exhaust system from downpipe
320hp atw
Here goes...
Came back from work one night, around 24\'c...parked up at a friends let it cool for 2 mins then turned it off. After about 10 mins i could hear it boiling inside as though there was an air lock. So left it at my mates place until the morning.
I had just received my new alloy AST so i decided to change it and flush the system at the same time. Did so but had to flush it a few times to get rid of an air lock in the rad.
For the next 2 weeks i had problems with overheating after 30 mins of driving. Changed the Thermostat, flushed the system, changed the AST all of this to no avail. After a few tries it sorted itself out :2Rolleyes
If the car is moving/getting fresh air to the FMIC it\'l stay "ok" (wont overheat)
If i get stuck in traffic it will overheat.
I had it Booked into Carl\'s for mapping and some work doing so i thought id have him check it out aswell. All the way down it was fine. As soon as i hit traffic in Newbury...bzzzzzzzzzzzzz...Let it cool down, filled it back up and finally arrived at Carls. He said it could be a number of things, rad fan was found to be lacking (could stop with one finger) he tested for combustion gasses and did a comp test all fine...phew:Yawn He said to sort the problem it would probably be around £1k to replace rad etc etc. Not having that sort of money at the time we decided to go home...:WaveBye Carl
Went to the services waited 3 hours for it to go cold. Then left for home. We left at 7pm got home at 5:30am (Yep:2eek)
My view was the A/C rad was blocking the water rad and the front mount blocking the entire front, therefore no cool air getting into the engine bay, along with the duff fan and hot weather this all was adding up and causing it to overheat...
Got home and ripped the AC out...still the same...
Changed the filler cap...Wooooooooooooohooooooooooooooo no problems!!!! :Party
500 miles & £200 later all it was is a £6 filler cap! :Hammer
This lasted for 2 weeks of going to work and back 18 miles a day a few in heavy traffic whilst 25\'c...car was fine!:burnout
The last few days has been cooler but for some reason its still loosing water somewhere. No visible leaks or anything. Not overheating! No buzzer! But after a run main rad pipes will be stiff with steam rather than water...is this normal??? Since getting back from Carls the water coming out of the system is brown inside. When i flush it you can clearly see the colour. Even the expansion stick thingy has gone browny with some sort of residue!
Sunday...following a cruise around town, it did buzz after it had been parked for an hour......but again no leaks?!?!
After its totally cold (next day) its lost 600-900mls of water from both expansion & filler!!!:2eek
My question is pretty simple really...
WTF is going on!!! :xconfused
When you refilled the system how exactly did you do it ??? Have you got an airlock in the throttle body. You need to create a head of water above the rear hose to remove all the air bubbles from the system.
Also did you fill up the res tank in the wheel arch, it may being sucked out into it !
I thought you had a stock rad in the car, what kind of temps are you seeing when you are driving round ??
Are you still running the airpump, if not have you got an underdrive pulley set for the waterpump or is the belt not tight enough, maybe that could help.
Maybe the pump is goosed and cavitating. I\'ve got a couple of spare pumps if you want to try swapping it over.
What temps are you seeing ???
Shaun
plus wheres my db meter :p
Shaun
110% flushed the system and there is no air bubbles/pockets in there...usually stick a ribena bottle on the resevoir with the throttle pipe off and let it bleed itself...otherwise i\'l use the hose into the neck and it clears it...
The expansion is loosing water along with the resevoir??!?!??
Nop tis a mahoosive Feed one...dont know temps only going according to stock gauge...:(
Air pump still there...just waiting for the belts for my removal kit so i can fit it along with the power pulley kit. I\'ll be taking the A/C pump out at the same time aswell...hopefully
Goosed & cavitating?!?!?!
One thing i do know is the intake temps are very high...by touch id say at least 65-70\'c before going into the FMIC then 40-50\'c from FMIC to throttle body!!!
Dont worry still got DB meter :p will bring to Mascrat...Im off on hols next week so not around this month...will be there next month though, if you need it i can post no probs :)
Im not at next mascart, promissed to bowl that night over 6 months ago :( Don\'t worry about it, only messing :p
I was seeing 38deg on sunday on the air intakes, so 40-50 isn\'t all that bad in this weather only about 15 degs above ambient. could always try wi to help it !
The waterpump is just like a fan that pumps the water round the engine. If its nackered it could pump less than it supposed to.
Bit of an interesting problem !
Shaun
I did leave the throttle body hose off one time and start the car to make sure the water pump was working and it soaked by bro who was standing 4 feet away...so i think it is :D
Any ideas on the brown water/residue?!?!?!
Does the stock turbos have a coolant line ???? Can coolant blow out through the turbos ??
Shaun
Duff fan could be a big problem. Also the fans have 3 speeds controlled by the relays near the rad and should switch up speeds as temps rise.
The odd loss of coolant and dodgy colour of the coolant on refill does kinda sound dodgy but if Carl\'s tested for seal failure and it\'s come up negative then I guess that\'s not the culprit.
As a guide - I\'ve got a FMIC and aircon between the cold ait and rad and in traffic see water temps at a rock solid 89C so you\'ve got:
1) Airlock somewhere
2) knackered fans
3) dodgy thermostat
4) pressurised cooling system from combustion gasses
Hope you sort it mate!
1- Airlock - Possible - although highly unlikely like i said iv bleed it/flushed it 50x after being taught by Carl
2- Very possible am on the case for new fans, although they seem to be running ok
3- Impossible tis brand new
4- Please explain? (Coolant was tested @ Carl\'s for trace combustion gasses and was fine)
?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Vewy Vewy Confused...:(
I had a situation a while ago where the pipe to the expension tank was pinched. Under pressure, the water would be pushed to the expansion tank, but the vacuum when cooled would not suck the water back. Then as it repressured, water would be pushed to the tank, and then not sucked back.
ONe check is to trace the pipe from the AST to the expansion tank and make sure that isn\'t pinched.
Quote from: Rixio4- Please explain? (Coolant was tested @ Carl\'s for trace combustion gasses and was fine)(
Just listing the optins. As you say this was checked and is not the problem. You can add knackered WP to that list too!
Water pump shoots water about 4 foot out of the car if the throttle hose is left off & car turned on...is that enough or should it be more than 4 feet??
Quote from: ArchbishI had a situation a while ago where the pipe to the expension tank was pinched. Under pressure, the water would be pushed to the expansion tank, but the vacuum when cooled would not suck the water back. Then as it repressured, water would be pushed to the tank, and then not sucked back.
ONe check is to trace the pipe from the AST to the expansion tank and make sure that isn\'t pinched.
Will check this but i think everything is flowing right and nothing is twisted or pinched :)
Everything is flowing ok pipes wise...Took it out yesterday as it was cold and raining to see if its ok...not blasting it, just normal around town for about 40 mins and it overheated :Grrr
Anybody...anything...please...
no advice mate but i hope you sort it soon
matt
hi rix,
now i know why you wanted me to call you! Just out of curiousity, have you done the champagne bubble test on the car. It is a pretty good indicator for coolant seal wear as far as i know.
cheers
Nick
Quote from: Jovic82hi rix,
now i know why you wanted me to call you! Just out of curiousity, have you done the champagne bubble test on the car. It is a pretty good indicator for coolant seal wear as far as i know.
cheers
Nick
Please explain...
Update: Tried to start the car this morning...wouldnt start, no water on the floor, opened the cap to make sure it was full before i tried it put about 300mls in before i did. It popping like a mofo and didnt want to start...was very very loud, didnt sound healthy in the slightest! i tried it twice and left it!
This is seriously stressing me out now...
Sounding like water seal time Rixio!
Planet rebuild me thinks :(
Its just been rebuilt! 6k Miles ago at the cost of £8k!!!!
Quote from: RixioIts just been rebuilt! 6k Miles ago at the cost of £8k!!!!
Time to have a chat with the engine builder I think. It\'s certainly sounding more and more like water ingress :(
Quote from: RixioIts just been rebuilt! 6k Miles ago at the cost of £8k!!!!
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Jesus Christ thats a lotta money for a rebuild !!
I\'d hope it\'s covered under warranty mate !!
The warranty ran out the day it overheated the first time @ my mates place...spoke to the builder he said "O no no dont worry about it i\'ll pop a thermostat in the post & we\'l see how you get on" Next day i got a Thermo and a £40 invoice!
Oh **** mate, I\'d take it back to your builder as soon as possible and discuss how best to sort your car out, surely if it\'s a reputable builder, they\'ll be sympathetic to water seal failure (if thats what is going on) after only 6 thousand miles.
I\'d expect to be looked after in this scenario.
Sort it in private though, not on here mate.
Thats why i didnt name the builder :)
hope you get everything sorted out Rixio..... sounds a bit strange that your water seals have gone so quick on a new rebuild...
Spoke with Rixio the other night,
8K rebuild surely must mean the builder SHOULD try to sort the problem without further payment ? Alas i fear it might not be te case but i think rotary specialists SHOULD look after their customers as we are still quite a rare breed
Normally water seal failure happens only after ten years no matter what the mileage is, but only a year and 6K sounds like a defect in the water seal itself going pourous. Hopefully your builder will sort it for a reasonable agreement
Quote from: BlitzBoyNormally water seal failure happens only after ten years no matter what the mileage is, but only a year and 6K sounds like a defect in the water seal itself going pourous. Hopefully your builder will sort it for a reasonable agreement
or...the motor was run very hot for some time...repeatedly,then they go porous(sp) as well,also not using the correct water seals....:2eek
Just an update:
Its not actually loosing water into the engine...no combustion gasses were found when the coolant was tested...
Both compression & combustion are fine!
I had got some new fans from Nikp because one of mne was duff...re-wired refitted them and hooked it all back up today...everything working fine...
No overheating but still stiff pipe between filler neck to rad. So its presumably steam, didnt run it long no problems.
Switched off waited 1 hour and tried again, same again was ok but still stiff pipe.
Waited an hour
Went round the block...no boosting from either turbo! It drives as though its just from the throttle body and totally bypassing the turbines & IC?!?! I checked all the pipes again to make sure everything was connected properly couldnt find anything. Will check again tmrw if i get chance...i bet its something simple but still giving me even more stress now!
Its just sat at the top of the drive cooling down atm...:(
EDIT: THE BROWN WATER IS SOMETHING IN THE ENGINE CAUSING IT THE RUST! WHEN I DRAINED THE SYSTEM INTO A BUCKET IT WAS BROWN...THE NEXT DAY IT HAD SETTLED AT THE BTM AND I REALISED IT WAS RUST!!!!!
This is what iv done so far...
Checked all the hoses that i can find, for cracks & leaks etc non found
Replaced the thermostat
Replaced the AST
Replaced the fans
Taken the rad off and flushed it
Removed AC rad
Fixed the exhaust
Taken all the intake pipes off and checked them, all fine
Fitted commander so i can see whats going on!
I finished work on it yesterday...fixed the boost leak aswell as overheating! Since i bought it its had a leak that nobody could find and its been boosting at 0.6 bar. I fixed it somehow and what a difference its made! Goes up to 0.9/0.8 now Anyway took it out for a blast & was fine for 2 hours of pure blasting well into 3 figures but as soon as i hit town centre 3 traffic lights and it overheated :(
It was steady 85c\'-101\'c then it would drop back down so it seemed to be running well. As soon as i hit town at the first lights it went up to 113\'c and dropped back down to 97\'c the 3rd lights it went to 114\'c just before i started moving so i though ok too hot and pulled over & turned it off. It only started leaking 30 seconds after i stopped it went to 118\'c. Intakes were at 53\'c when standing and 34\'c-44\'c on the move.
After letting it cool and refilling it went home and on at around 3k rpm i heard a phhszlpff as though a pipe slit/popped off and i lost 90% of boost
Finally got home at 4am and iv just got up now so
about to go start work on it again
I think the expansion is filling up, but not recirculating the water back into the engine. Also it seems to be leaking from the filler neck, the AST pipe gromit and the release gromit!
Maybe the Waterpump is duff aswell?
Those are the only 2 things it could be at this stage because compression is fine and theres no combustion gasses in the coolant!
Rix, I think you are the right path ...IF you know its not a motor problem ..then you have to start eliminationg the auxilaries one by one....The reason i say this is...when you are moving and you have air flow through the radiator then the temps are normal.Once you stop and you rely on the auxliaries to keep all cool..then you have the prob.Step back for a while from the car and think with basic logic about the cooling of the car.That way it is easier for you to eliminate probs..........:Typing Wish I was closer to you so I could try and help...hate to anybody struggle !!!!!!!!!!!
Im gona order a low temp thermostat aswell as the Air Pump removal kit & AC Pump removal kit on Tuesday. Hopefully get a water pump from Shaun & try and do it all next weekend...im gona go see if i can find the boost problem now though...:Hammer
Anything else i should be check/looking for?
pm sent :)
Shaun
Just a thought about this, maybe all the problems are being caused by the thermostat, have you put a new one in yet ???? Its only a cheap replacement and 3 bolts !!!!!!
Shaun
have you checked temp sensors for fans yet? mine never went above 98\' because the fans came in.
also have you checked the water pump as it sounds as though the water isnt moving around properly.
matt
Where swapping it over next weekend hopefully. I hope the waterpump is the problem !
Shaun
Rust in the water is not a good sign, have you been running Inhibitor with the coolant?
I have had all sorts of water seal Problems in the past and its better to have the Block presure tested to check for Leaks rather than checking the coolant, this is mainly becouse when it overheats you loose all the coolant and so you don\'t get a good reading.
Plate Water seal groove failure is getting very common and depending on where the Groove fails it can give diffrent symptoms some more Dramatic than others.
8K seems a LOT of money for a rebuild what else did you have done at the same time?
Quote from: shaunwilWhere swapping it over next weekend hopefully. I hope the waterpump is the problem !
Shaun
hopefully, i had the same prob on an old escort and that fixed it and an old citron and waterpump was the only thing not replaced.
matt
I was just thinking, If it was the Water pump thats to blame if you remove the Pulley from the front there will be water marks from the lower drain hole.
When it\'s hot/overheating can you actually hear the fans operating????
The fans are always on...as soon as the ingnition is on the fans are on. They have been wired up like that before i had the car...so they dont kick in at 85\'c they are just constantly on...??!?!??:2eek
£8k gets you a New Clutch, Cleaned & Tested Injectors, New Turbos, Street Porting, New 3" Downpipe, Uprated HT Leads, New Plugs, Full rebuild, Power FC + Commander (even though i dont have the commander still + had to buy a seperate one!) Mapping & other stuff done aswell but cant remember the rest :Hammer
Could it be that the belts are slack?
Like Shaun said, hopefully its the water pump and it\'l be sorted by the weekend...Fingers crossed
Although i have been advised by Carl & Clive that it also could be a blockage in the rad. So if any of you guyz have a spare rad that they dont mind letting me borrow to check, can you shoot me a PM please. Any help would be greatly appreciated :)
Quote from: RixioThe fans are always on...as soon as the ingnition is on the fans are on. They have been wired up like that before i had the car...so they dont kick in at 85\'c they are just constantly on...??!?!??:2eek
This could be your problem or part of it, the fans have 4 speeds normally...maybe yours are running at the lowest speed which is insufficient to cope with high temps and traffic.
Get them checked out mate :cheers
Quote from: RixioThe fans are always on...as soon as the ingnition is on the fans are on. They have been wired up like that before i had the car...so they dont kick in at 85\'c they are just constantly on...??!?!??:2eek
£8k gets you a New Clutch, Cleaned & Tested Injectors, New Turbos, Street Porting, New 3" Downpipe, Uprated HT Leads, New Plugs, Full rebuild, Power FC + Commander (even though i dont have the commander still + had to buy a seperate one!) Mapping & other stuff done aswell but cant remember the rest :Hammer
Could it be that the belts are slack?
Like Shaun said, hopefully its the water pump and it\'l be sorted by the weekend...Fingers crossed
Although i have been advised by Carl & Clive that it also could be a blockage in the rad. So if any of you guyz have a spare rad that they dont mind letting me borrow to check, can you shoot me a PM please. Any help would be greatly appreciated :)
i have a series 1, i know there a different beast but i had overheating problems, to be honest is was the other way round overheating at 90mph and fine in traffic, nearly ripped out my from grill, new fan then rad, ordered a new fan belt from Mazda as the one i had was not the sold v one, changed the belt and solved the problem!, just ordered a double pulley for the alternator as mine only runs a single belt since the air pump went, do you have overdrive pulleys?
Mark
The Belts are all stock atm i was intending to take the air pump and ac pump out this weekend whilst changing the water pump...but have been advised that it slows down the water pump
QuoteThis could be your problem or part of it, the fans have 4 speeds normally...maybe yours are running at the lowest speed which is insufficient to cope with high temps and traffic.
Get them checked out mate
__________________
This sounds like a good idea to me. When my temps get into high 90s in traffic i press the Aircon button (aircon removed) and the fans step up a gear and coll engine down, have you tried that? Do you have another rex you can look at to check the wiring against, i\'m not too far away if you get stuck.
Cheers
Jon
Been having a reread through this Rixio and the brown sludge thing would make me think along the lines of a blocked rad and you\'ve disturbed some of the crap when trying to flush it. If its properly blocked then your looking at a recore or swap the rad as when there blocked you never really clear them 100%.
Kevin
Quote from: Red and SingleThis could be your problem or part of it, the fans have 4 speeds normally...maybe yours are running at the lowest speed which is insufficient to cope with high temps and traffic.
Get them checked out mate :cheers
It just started all of a sudden though & if it was the fan speed that was slow wouldnt it have overheated 6 months ago rather than just out of the blue??:confused:
Kev its not actually sludge it was rust in the water, atm im only using water because if i was using coolant it would have cost me £200 odd by now! I spent £40ish just on coolant when this first showed its ugly head!!!
If you want to replace the rad anyway, I have a stock one I\'ve *just* taken out... I wouldn\'t want much for it to a forum buddy.
Could be worth it, at least you could have the rad flow tested and then reinstalled !
Shaun
Jetpilot has offered me one if i pay postage but thanks anyway Smifta
Quote from: RixioIt just started all of a sudden though & if it was the fan speed that was slow wouldnt it have overheated 6 months ago rather than just out of the blue??:confused:
Maybe it\'s happenned since you fitted the PFC ??
I\'d get an autoelectrician onto those fans mate if I was you !!
PFC been fitted since it was built last year...bro is a sparky and he cant find anything amiss (sp)
OK fair enough, just seems fishy that someones wired the fans to come on all the time in the past, hints at past cooling problems dont it.
I\'m at the limit of my knowledge and cant offer you any more help, are you sure the fans are working as they should though, I\'m sure there are 4 speeds and if they aren\'t kicking in at full speed, it would give you the exact symptoms you have, ie fine when moving but overheating in traffic.
Good Luck bud, hope you sort her out :cheers
Thanks for all the input Dave :)
What exactly do you mean by \'overheating\'? More than 110 degress on the coolant? Water being pushed out the overflow tank? Steam?
Yep...more than 110\'c water being shot out of the expansion, the AST making a sshtpph noise and a stiff rad pipe under the main filler neck...
Does anybody have the part numbers for the engine coolant pipes...not the fat rad ones just the little thin ones...
1-The Throttle body one
2-The Turbo ones
3-The AST ones
Thanks
Rixio
Hope this helps............
Shaun
Shaun your a star...tried ringing you yesterday but no answer...will ring later tonight :)
I like the Archbishop himsielfs sugestion. Crack or split in the expansion hose and it will force water out never to reture. Only needs a small hole. This will then overflow from the expansion tank. Are you topping up with antifreeze each time.
I think its water seals though. Sorry mate. Perhaps they were fried the first time it overheated. Happened to me. Only have to cook it once.
Jon
Sorry bud, what time did you try to ring ?? I was in most of the day, out bowling last night ! Didn\'t think you had got your bits when you hadn\'t contacted me ! We will get it sorted though !
Shaun
Just taken the car out to get to the merc at the top of the drive and noticed that the passenger side footwell is completeley drenched! Reached around and the entire dash behind the glove box is dripping wet...all the windows steam up if i have the car on for even 30 secs...wtf?!?!?!?!
Thats your heater matrix under the dash, there was a rencent thread on it, could that be the cause ?????
Shaun
Dono...can a duff heater matrix cause the car to pressurize overheat or is this a new problem?!!!?
Sorry buddy no idea !!!! Would have thought it wouldn\'t help, but the over pressurize could have popped a pipe on it !
Shaun
Quote from: RixioDono...can a duff heater matrix cause the car to pressurize overheat or is this a new problem?!!!?
Yep, Your effectivly removing coolant from the system and replacing it with air which does not cool as Effectivly. Water boils at a higher temp when its in a Closed space but if you vent it then heat up it will boil, Its the steam that you can feel over pressurize the Pipes
Try conecting the two Matrix lines to each other where they go through the Bulkhead (so you bypass the Matrix) this will tell you for sure if its your Problem. Just make sure you blead it up well. Also you won\'t have warm air in the Car so this is a short turm fix to see if its defo your Problem.
Unfortunatly a heater matrix is not a Nice job to do (you have to remove the dash)
What should i use to connect the two lines? Is there a pic of which ones i need to conect to each other?
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29114&highlight=heater+matrix
Shaun
I\'d just join them together with a peice of metal pipe and some jubilee clips.
Shaun
If i remember correctly (this is along time ago so don\'t hold me to it) but i think you can conect the Bottom pipe to the Steel pipe the Top one is conected to (if you get where i\'m coming from)
I Don\'t remember using any extra Pipe or Clips at the time it was a "at the side of the road" fix.
Will go out and try that now! Lets hope it works...
Just make sure you bleed it well.
You mean bleed the coolant system or the heater system? If its the heater system how do i bleed it?
No i mean once you take the Matrix out of the Equation you\'ll need to bleed it up well as it will have lots of air in the system.
I\'d just stick some tape over the Matrix Pipes so you don\'t get the Crap of the road in them.
As mentioned in phone call :
http://www.rotaryheads.com/PDF/3rd_gen/
Shaun
Replumbed the pipes yesterday. What an absolute pish take of a job getting to the clips was a nightmare & trying to pull the pipes off even worse! In all it took me 3&1/2 hours.
I did have to join both of the pipes together because the btm one isnt long enough to reach to top inlet pipe.
Did it all bleed the system twice and turned it on in the drive...it didnt move from 2k rpm for 6 mins at which point it was at 103\'c so i switched it off...let it cool and flushed it again...
The second time it lasted 9 mins & dropping to normal idle before the buzzer came on and pipes were pressurized...
Gona try and pull the rad out for the 3rd time and get a quoted for recoring it. Hopefully will be able to do the waterpump & pipes this weekend other than that im fresh out of ideas
Im at the point where i just cba anymore...this whole new thing with the matrix is making me stress even more...i just cant afford to spend any more money on it because i lost my job last Wed :(
What should i do...
do you want to borrow/buy a good used rad, its sitting in the garage?
matt
If i was you, i\'d start at the top, Get the block coolant tested, once you know 100% the water seals are good strip the Pump housing and check the Pump for leaks (you\'ll see water marks from the Pumps Drain holes if its seals have gone) if all this is Good Presure test the Rad then the Turbo.
If you still haven\'t found some thing replace all the water hoses.
It sounds realy extreme but i\'ve just had to do this on a mates car and it turned out to be a plug on one of the Plates was leaking, the car failed the Engine test and i was under the car spliting the Gear box whilst there noticed there was a water mark on the side of the Sump. Its the little things that cause the biggest head aches.
Its like anything its easy to find the Symptoms but one fault can cause another and it turns into a Visous circle.
If you want some advice though if its getting to you put it away get your self sorted and then come back to it when you have a better frame of mind, if you get stressed out you\'ll just end up Braking some thing or removing the skin of your Knuckles.
Quote from: Grizzlyremoving the skin of your Knuckles.
i thought this was part of car law
Quote from: arroukdo you want to borrow/buy a good used rad, its sitting in the garage?
matt
Now that would be usefull! Just need to borrow it, I just need to check if its the rad thats causing the problem...will give you a call tmrw!
Im gona rip the air pump and water pump off tmrw so i can check the turbo coolant pipes and pump out...been fired so might aswell make use of the time i have!! Will keep a photo record so i know what goes where :p
P.S - Skin from knuckles you say...i did that yesterday trying to get those damn matrix clips & hoses off...what a mission!
Rixio:Thumbs-up
Right just to update...if the weather holds out(Doesnt look likely but hey we can hope) (http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/5day.shtml?id=3888) i should be putting the car back together tmrw...
After replacing all the coolant pipes, the water pump & housing, removing the air pump and ac pump & changing a few boost pipes that were hard...lets see if its cured it...
The only thing left if this doesnt fix it is the rad & if thats not it...im lost...:Hammer
Fingers crossed eh!
I hope it all comes back together. What else could it be ???
Shaun
If its out can\'t you get the rad presure tested too? Or at least give it a good looking over for water marks then put a bit of water in it and shake it about a bit (with the in/out covered) just to get any Crap out of the Bottom of it then run a hose pipe though it for a bit?
Tried that already, not the pressure test but the rest of it, also flushed it using caustic soda and boiling water! It flows freely dosnt seem to have any blockages, its a big thick 3" Feed racing rad, so for it to get blocked up it would take a serious chunk of (enter something here) to actually block it...atm the rad is still in the car as i didnt take it out again after the 3rd attempt at flushing it. If it doesnt cure it i have a spare stock rad i can test the car with whilst i get the Feed re-cored...
After 5 hours hard work, 4 sheered bolts, 1 finger sliced to the bone, 37odd cuts & putting all the other bits and bobs back together, i finally got the car back in one piece...& i must say i am pretty proud of myself...
but...
...The coolant level sensor is also fubar so need to get new one tmrw
... & iv lost the filler cap :Hammer...
...& one of the boost solenoids spigot thingy is broken inside the vacuum pipe so is no longer connected to anything. Its the very first one towards the front of the car at the btm of the nest is it ok disconnected as i have been told its just for the double throttle idle or something?
...Turned the key and it fired up first time! My bro held his palm over the filler neck until the car reached 70\'c at which point i turned it off until tmrw...
The coolant sensor was fubar when i took it out of the filler neck, so it could have been the cause of the problem as it was leaking and the threads were broken...
As it stands the following has been carried out
1. All the coolant pipes in the engine bar the turbo hard pipes have been replaced.
2. All the AST pipes have been replaced
3. Some of the vacuum hoses have been replaced
4. Air pump has been removed
5. A/C pump has been removed
6. Fans have been replaced
7. Fan wiring has been replaced
8. Water pump has been replaced
9. Water pump housing has been replaced
10. Therostat has been replaced
11. Thermostat housing has been replaced
12. AST has been replaced
13. Compression check has been carried out, all ok
14. Combustion check has been carried out, all ok
15. Radiator has been flushed with caustic soda twice
16. Filler Cap has been replaced
17. All the clamps/jubilee clips have been replaced
So it cannot be any of the above...the only thing that could be causing the problem is the radiatior!!!
But will see how it goes tmrw as soon as i get the filler cap & coolant sensor :)
Rixio :Thumbs-up
Hopefully your coming to the end of the project !!!! There is a very good feeling when you can say that you fixed it :p
Not much more it could be !
Cya soon
Shaun
Hmm lets see...and add one more to the list shall we...
1. All the coolant pipes in the engine bar the turbo hard pipes have been replaced.
2. All the AST pipes have been replaced
3. Some of the vacuum hoses have been replaced
4. Air pump has been removed
5. A/C pump has been removed
6. Fans have been replaced
7. Fan wiring has been replaced
8. Water pump has been replaced
9. Water pump housing has been replaced
10. Therostat has been replaced
11. Thermostat housing has been replaced
12. AST has been replaced
13. Compression check has been carried out, all ok
14. Combustion check has been carried out, all ok
15. Radiator has been flushed with caustic soda twice
16. Filler Cap has been replaced
17. All the clamps/jubilee clips have been replaced
18. The Heater Matrix has been disconnected & bypassed
19. Radiator has been replaced from Feed to stock
The damn thing is still overheating!
The coolant buzzer is constantly on even though we tried to earth it!
It only takes 1-3mins (with stock rad) to overheat now rather than 40+mins
There is a whine from the engine after 3krpm
& the main thing...I feel like sh!t
What am i missing! Someone please help!
Is the water pump actually turning? or is the belt slipping? Edit, or if you took off the air pump is it possible to get the pump turning the wrong way? by slipping the new shorter belt on the wrong side of the pump pulley? just a thought as this sounds desperate!
Yeh no belt slip, belts all fine & in line...not possible to get the pump turning the wrong way because it only has enough length to go on this way...
is water circulating through the rad? is the rad getting hot? is it the correct rating stat? have you burped the trapped air out the system?
Yep Yep Yep & Yep...
If only it was that simple :(
Is the water temp senor wiring ok and not earthing out?
U replaced the sensor itself? Could be a false reading!
You realy need to get your Block coolant presure tested, a Comp test isn\'t going to tell you is a water seal on the Cold side has failed.
Its gona get pressure tested & checked tmrw at 2pm will see what happens:2Confused
Is there anything specific i need to do? I doubt they\'v ever done a rotary before!
Test the Block not the hole lot. If you arn\'t carfull it may pick up another fault and make you think its the engine, So i\'d test the Block if thats good then test the hole system and if that comes back good you have ither a Thermostat Problem or electrical.
BUT! if its overheating in 3 minutes its serious and would be ovious.
Good Luck.
TBH you would need one of theses to properly do a Rotary Block
http://www.atkinsrotary.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=16858&cat=568&page=1
You can make them fairly easy, I check every rebuild with one before it gets anywhere near a Car.
engine!!!!
Quote from: GrizzlyTBH you would need one of theses to properly do a Rotary Block
http://www.atkinsrotary.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=16858&cat=568&page=1
You can make them fairly easy, I check every rebuild with one before it gets anywhere near a Car.
How would i go about getting just the block tested? That kit looks like it goes onto where the water pump housing attaches to the block...not cheap either...iv just put all that housing back on :Hammer
Quote from: cjrengine!!!!
But it has no signs the engine is kaput...no champagne bubbles or combustion gasses in the coolant & no smoke...plus it starts and runs fine hot or cold!
Quote from: Andy_kIs the water temp senor wiring ok and not earthing out?
U replaced the sensor itself? Could be a false reading!
Which sensor is it? Where is it located? & i have 2 different temps visible. 1) PFC Commander 2) Stock gauge & i understand they are both different sensors anyway...?
Quote from: RixioHow would i go about getting just the block tested? That kit looks like it goes onto where the water pump housing attaches to the block...not cheap either...iv just put all that housing back on :Hammer
But it has no signs the engine is kaput...no champagne bubbles or combustion gasses in the coolant & no smoke...plus it starts and runs fine hot or cold!
Yes, it goes where the Water pump lives i did say a while ago you need to test the Water pasageways rather then the Combustion and unfortunatly thats the only real way.
The smaller the Water seal faliure the less visable the symptoms are, Also it depends where its gone (if its in the Inlet stroke it will be sucking water in rather then blowing air into the system) If it over heats in 3 minutes thats quite bad.
As far as im aware:-
1 sensor does the low water level (buzzer and light)which is small single black wire.
The other does the Gauge and Ecu.
Not to be funny but would a sensor cause it too over heat? I would say only on the gauges? If the fan was\'nt working it may overheat in about an Hour??
For the Motor To Overheat in 3!! Minutes it has to be loosing water or have a Blockage.
At least it you have the coolant Presure test done the Old Boinger way it will show if there is a leak.
From the beginning people have been betting on the rad...my thinking is it would take a serious amount of grime/bits/sh!t to clog up the Feed rad (4" thick) but maybe its done this stock one on the quick thats why its only taking 3 mins?! Will see how things go tmrw...iv read on nopistons it should be tested between 15-20psi...?
We are now in Oct & this started back in July!!!!! :Hammer
Whats actually telling him its over heating? And within 3 mins aswell.
Does the coolent filler cap release the pressure?
When i installed my electric water pump it took approx 3-4 mins(without water moving about the engine) to get to about 80c before the pump would kick in on the controller. This was from stone cold.
Do the fans kick in at 90-95c?
Is the air blown from them hot?
Do the temps keep rising after that?
Whats your Idle set at ?
Andy
Isn\'t the one in the dash connected to a sensor at the back of the engine ?
Plus you will need to pull the whole waterpump off if you want to test the pump.
Shaun
Quote from: RixioCame back from work one night, around 24\'c...parked up at a friends let it cool for 2 mins then turned it off. After about 10 mins i could hear it boiling inside as though there was an air lock. So left it at my mates place until the morning.
If i get stuck in traffic it will overheat.
The last few days has been cooler but for some reason its still loosing water somewhere. No visible leaks or anything. Not overheating! No buzzer! But after a run main rad pipes will be stiff with steam rather than water...
Rear that and tell me what is telling him its overheating?
This is getting confusing. I have re read this and if you have the fans on all the time and are seeing Physical evidence of overheating (hard pipes or steam) its going to be a bit more than a gauge.
If the gauge is just showing its hot but there is no steam or Bubbling you have a dodgy Gauge/Sensor??
Quote from: RixioEDIT: THE BROWN WATER IS SOMETHING IN THE ENGINE CAUSING IT THE RUST! WHEN I DRAINED THE SYSTEM INTO A BUCKET IT WAS BROWN...THE NEXT DAY IT HAD SETTLED AT THE BTM AND I REALISED IT WAS RUST!!!!!
Did you have Antifreeze in it? I ask because Rust does\'nt start in an engine overnight and it won\'t start at all with Corrosion inhibitors in the Antifreeze. If you get Brown water out of it something Steel is rusting (water pump, Plate etc)
Also for how long has it had no Antifreeze? could this have been caused last winter and only shown its face when the weather got warmer? If so you may be looking for a Crack.
This may sound like a crazy question but how hard is it to swap between degC and degF on the pfc ???
Would have to agree on the dodgy sensor and you need to get a temp gauge in the water. Can you measure the temp of the coolant at the filler neck, the sensor isn\'t too far away from there.
Surely if your mate had his hand over the filler neck until it said 70deg he would have scalded his hand ?? He wouldn\'t have been able to hold his hand on 70 deg water.
Shaun
Engine is only just over 12 months old and its only recent hes swapped the anifreeze out.
Shaun
Well has it had Antifreeze in it from day 1?
Anyone knows you DONT get Rust in a car that has Antifreeze in.
This is Not a Sensor!!! you have too many Symptoms for it to just be reading high.
Quote from: shaunwilSurely if your mate had his hand over the filler neck until it said 70deg he would have scalded his hand ?? He wouldn\'t have been able to hold his hand on 70 deg water.
Is this with the cap on?? Becouse!!!
In theory Yes you would get Burnt, But in Practice there is an Inch gap between the Cap and the 70deg water unless its over pressurized and is blowing water at out this point it (in that case the cap would be VERY!! Hot), Don\'t get me wrong the Cap would be quite hot but not 70deg.
And if not i don\'t belive it. Becouse No motor (not even a Boinger) runs at a temp that you would be able to withstand.
Quote from: shaunwilEngine is only just over 12 months old
Yep but how old are the Plates in the Motor??
Who\'s too say that when the Plates where checked for Damage/Coolant Grove Cracks that one was\'nt missed? Things like this don\'t show up realy until it\'s warm and dry.
It may have be checked at the time but if its not had Antifreeze in ????
Rust usaly Is not a Good sign.
Did it drop its water when you Bumped it?
Iv not been running antifreeze since this started. Because i kept filling up with it and it kept shooting back out.
I know it overheated within 3 mins when i put the new stock rad on. It warmed up to 71\'c and sat there took it for a drive 1/8 mile and it shot up to 101\'c. Re-filled etc after it cooled and it took 3 mins whilst standing to get from 67\'c to 111\'c, it started spewing coolant from 80\'c out of the expansion so we thought must just be leveling out because it stopped just before the car shot up past 90\'c
The water pump had serious rust on it when i took it out last week. Along with the Feed temp sensor which it bust. All the spigots for the coolant hoses were rusting. If the car is standing i always drain the water as much as i can so it doesnt rust. When i flush it and re-fill i make sure the water is clear before connecting everything again.
It was cold when i fired it up when my mate had his hand over the cap so the thermostat hadnt opened yet therefore wasnt hot where his hand was.
Im reading temps from the PFC Commander before this back when it started i was reading them from the stock gauge cluster.
The coolant buzzer is now constantly on even though we earthed it to the battery & to the body??
I think that covers all the points raised?:Hammer
Ok so its Defo not a Sensor then? It atualy Overheats!!! not shows hot on the gauges.
You REALY!! need to Test the Water seals. If not you will be chasing you tall for a Long time, that should have been NO.1 on the list a Compression test just does\'nt tell you anything about the Water seals.
Where can i get it done...
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cooling-system.htm
Just been reading through this...what would cause the AST not to suck water back into the engine bay?
Quote from: RixioWhere can i get it done...
Well the Guy who built it would be a Start. He\'s not that far away and this is Oviously some thing thats not Performance related (Apex seal det etc)
He does kind of Know his stuff.
Quote from: Rixiohttp://auto.howstuffworks.com/cooling-system.htm
Just been reading through this...what would cause the AST not to suck water back into the engine bay?
?????
The AST is suposed to remove the Air Bubbles from the Coolant The level will drop if the Level in the Engine Low?
Or do you mean what would stop the AST droping Coolant out the Overflow? That would be the Cap.
Sorry i didnt read the losing coolant bit.
With all the bits you\'ve replaced i\'d definately say take it back to the engine builder.
The single black wire sensor will not work if the wire is earthed.(Will cause the constant buzzing)
Took it to get pressure tested and as usual the guy didnt have a clue what he was talking about...o yeh your head gasket\'s gone mate (Insert w@nker here) Er ok if its not that then you\'l have to leave it here for a few days and let me check it out...what a jackass
They didnt have the correct size for the tester so im gona take it to another place tmrw, hopefully they have one that fits!
Short video after an idle warm up...i left it for 5 mins then it started leaking out from the expansion tank grommet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43bdGs4ePlI
Also the pressure check was done yesterday...no leaks at all & they did coolant check...no combustion gasses in the coolant either...:Hammer
Very hard to see anything on the pfc, video compression terrible. Sorry im not much help past what you have swapped. Hoe did the guy do the pressure test ??
Shaun
Is the Rad hot? also can you put the Thermostat in the wrong way round?
Having that much pressure in the Coolant system that quick i would say it was the engine but if its been tested and comes up good then the only thing i can think of is the water isn\'t flowing through the Rad and so the water in the engine is overheating? but to do this it would have to be a BIG blockage or the Thermostat not opening. If its been tested could it possably be the wrong way round?
This proberly has nothing to do with it but have you drained some of the Water out of the Overflow Tank and while your looking at it make sure the Pipe is still conected inside (its suposed to be submerged in fluid so it does\'nt draw air back into the engine)
I realy don\'t like how Hard the Rad pipes are.
The other thing is, Is it getting worse?
Along time ago (collage days) i was told that an engine\'s coolant has to be kept in a sealed environment, Because!! Water if kept sealed will raise the Boiling point, instead of turning to steam/Vapor when it gets to 100deg (which expands more rapidly and causes Bubbles etc Basically unstable), a std Cooling system will take serious heat before get to the point where the Water is just about to turn to steam and the pressure exceeds the cap limit there for loosing its coolant and it Overheats (well over 100deg) But!! if you have a leak so the water does\'nt pressurize and Turns into steam (hard pipes etc) it quickly over Pressurizes the System and then blows off steam.
But also you can get an effect where the wall of the Water seal groove brakes so it does\'nt suck water in but gets the pressure of the Inlet Stroke pressurizing the Coolant like a Compressor, this happens very quickly and i\'ve seen cars that have Cold water being pushed out of the rad cap its that violent, with water seal failures they can go in different places causing different symptoms. At least with a piston engine you get symptoms that can not be mistaken for some thing else (water in oil, oil in water, Exhaust gasses in the water etc) Rotary\'s can have a leaking Coolant seal and you won\'t see any of those.
So what i\'m trying to say is you too leak water out that bad you have to ether rase the Temp to a level where it expands too fast (that can be done if the rad is taken out of the Cooling system). Then you have the leak theory, but for this you don\'t realy need to be seeing masive water loss but you would see it leaking from some where else other than the Overflow tank thats is of cause if it got a new AST cap on. Now you have the pain in the Arse one, the engine pressurizing the System, this would be Ovious if the coolant was tested, its been known for the water seal to still be in place with a peice of the Plates Water seal Groove missing so the symptoms would be mild (as oposed to a proper snapped Seal which you would know about) but it always shows up on a Coolant pressure Test. Another Ovious sign is does it overheat at a Lowish temp (if the cap is\'nt on the Overflow tank does the water coming out of the AST steam? I.e very hot)
Ok will check that tmrw...pretty sure the thermostat is the right way round as theres only one way it can go by looking at it...
Nop not getting worse, just does it quicker now that the stock ast and stock rad are on...before it could take up to a couple of hours but now its less than 30 mins...im gona put the Feed rad back on tmrw so will check how that goes, also will check thermo and remove the middle section of it...yes the rad does get hot...you can follow the flow on the system when the car is cold from when the thermo opens you can feel the warmth going through the rad into the block then at the throttle and heater matrix pipes etc...so dont think its the wrong wat around...will check the expansion pipe tmrw...but not sure how to make sure if its submerged or not...
P.S does anyone have a pic of which way round it should go just to make sure...it would be reeeeeeeeeeaaaaally embarassing but hey
Edit: Just to add...another person said this earlier "My guess, if it\'s only been 6k since a rebuild, would be a faulty seal to begin with, or it was installed improperly." and the same was said by 2 engine builders in the US...
Now the question is, if this is the cause...Do i trust the builder & take it back...taking his ("Im kind of flexible with this kind of thing") word for it???
Im absolutley not prepared to pay ££££ for it because it happened the same week the warranty ran out!
It goes in with the spring loaded disc to the back of the thermostat housing (away from you stood at front of car). There is a corisponding hole it covers once it opens.
Shaun
Try putting the Thermostat in a pan of water and boiling it on a cooker, get it realy warm and then turn the heat off and see if its open.
Quote from: RixioEdit: Just to add...another person said this earlier "My guess, if it\'s only been 6k since a rebuild, would be a faulty seal to begin with, or it was installed improperly." and the same was said by 2 engine builders in the US...
Now the question is, if this is the cause...Do i trust the builder & take it back...taking his ("Im kind of flexible with this kind of thing") word for it???
Im absolutley not prepared to pay ££££ for it because it happened the same week the warranty ran out!
Well its a Tricky situation. I would seriously be talking to him at this point (well after the Thermostat is checked ;)) and tell him the story but don\'t go in all pi**ed off becouse people tend to shut off and you get no where. Alot of the Big engine Builders will relise a Water seal Faliur is not something that can be caused be Missadventure (wacking the boost up) So it could just be a Sick twist of fate or a Bad seal from a Batch????? But it may not be the Builders fault but a bad part. So if your only just out of warantee you may get some Joy if you put your Point accross well.
Well the thermo is defo in the right way then...Phew (I think:Hammer)
Will check it in the pan tmrw. Also gona ring the builder tmrw and see what he says. Its just the last time i felt like he didnt really want to give me the time of day :eek:
P.S I am a nice, diplomatic & well mannered man...most of the time :p
Just updated this aswell...lots of usefull facts on here :)
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30047
Who\'s the builder? :Laugh But seriously, is it someone we\'ve all heard of?
Id rather not say at this time...will wait to see what happens first...
Not read through all the posts, but do you have the rad caps in the correct position? The non pressure cap fitted at filler point by alternator and pressure cap on the AST. Has the pressure cap been replaced?
Kev
Same here. The fact that that video showed coolant getting pushed out of the expansion tank and you\'re not getting any of the tell-tale symptoms of coolant seal failure would suggest a dodgy AST pressure cap. Has this been replaced?
Could be the caps but if thats the case why would the pipes go hard?
Rixio, Does it blow water out all the time (even from cold?) or does it blow water out after a few minutes of being cold?
Takes around 20 mins to start leaking but itl start at 80\'c now...before i replaced all the pipes and hoses it took up to 2 hours...its very irratic and not consistant to any specific length of time or temp...very strange...
I tested the old and new thermostat and the new one actually opens later & less compared to the old one! Replaced it again with no joy...changed caps again with no joy...
I went to tesco just now, to put some fuel in it as it was almost out and by the time i got back and parked it it was maybe 6 mins? Left it 2 mins then it started leaking...it was also making a very strange hissing noise from around the plenum area which i tried to locate but couldnt because it was dying away slowly...hissing kind of bubbling...
I took a pic a while back of the original thermostat when i pulled it out of the car...it has some sort of silicon or elastic something stuck in the spring...
Also...where can i get some of these nipples from?
Did you change the water pipes that go to the Throttle body? Was there any steam etc coming from that area?
The Vac pipe take off\'s i usaly fill the end with 2 pack glue (it does\'nt blow off like the Rubber Blanking Nipples. (there a bit of a Waist of time and need to be Super glued on realy)
That stuff you found in the Spring looks very much like Mazda RTV sealer (simalar colour).
Nop no steam that i could see, just the sound...RTV Sealer?
QuoteRTV Sealer?
Yeah, it\'s a type of silicone sealant, used on an engine rebuild for parts of the rotor housings and on the gearbox, and probably other places too. Used instead of a sump gasket too.
LOL, As well as a sump gasket ;)
Thing is if RTV is over applied it will squash out into the oil/water ways (what ever its being used to seal) and if it brakes off will float around until its picked up by a Filter or in this case the Thermostat Spring. Not really a Big problem just means some one has been Generous with the sealer.
Quote from: RixioTakes around 20 mins to start leaking but itl start at 80\'c now...before i replaced all the pipes and hoses it took up to 2 hours...its very irratic and not consistant to any specific length of time or temp...very strange...
I tested the old and new thermostat and the new one actually opens later & less compared to the old one! Replaced it again with no joy...changed caps again with no joy...
I went to tesco just now, to put some fuel in it as it was almost out and by the time i got back and parked it it was maybe 6 mins? Left it 2 mins then it started leaking...it was also making a very strange hissing noise from around the plenum area which i tried to locate but couldnt because it was dying away slowly...hissing kind of bubbling...
I took a pic a while back of the original thermostat when i pulled it out of the car...it has some sort of silicon or elastic something stuck in the spring...
Also...where can i get some of these nipples from?
There are two vacuum tanks near the plenum. The hissing sounds like a small leak from one of the pipes to and from these tanks.
Good luck finding which one!!
Thats a good point arn\'t you having Boost problems too?
Quote from: GrizzlyLOL, As well as a sump gasket ;)
Not at all, in my case, and many others, instead of a sump gasket. :)
You mean everyone that uses Bruce T\'s rebuild Kits ;) If you use OE they come with the Kit. :)
No, i didn\'t use Bruce T kit - I got mine from Tim at RX motors, and he doesn\'t use a sump gasket either.
No? So does he not use OE Gasket Kits then? Thats a Bit confusing? I was led to belive with Tin Sumps you need a Gasket as they are never properly flat.
I think its Personal Preference, If Mazda Use them In OE Kits and my car never leaked in its Ten years on the road then I\'ll be sticking to RTV and a gasket :)
Did you not get a Gasket or where you told not to use one?
Rixio, I havent read all through this thread, just a few of the last posts. But it sounds like you have exactly the same problem I had with mine a few months back. Turn the car off, few minutes later water starts coming out of the expansion tank. It seemed to happen to me the most when heatsoak was pushing the water temp up after switching off. Anyway, a new AST cap sorted the problem (WGT diagosed it)
Nop boost was sorted out a while back...i just broke one of the solenoid spigots to the "Double Throttle Control" its disconnected from the Plenum now...So seem to lose some boost in 1st at top revs...but other than that its fine :)
Going to the builders in a couple of weeks will see what happens there...if it does need another rebuild he said he\'d do it if its not a cracked housing or something that he doesnt cover under warranty. If its the seal then "It wont be a problem" so looks promising atm
my car does the same thing with the coolant, although intermittently. I have replaced the cap and its a little better.
What I want to try next is replace the AST with a standard Mazda one and see.
I believe the aftermarket ASTs dont always have a good seat for the cap.
What rating is the cap on your AST Rixio, Martiny? the one i have on mine is marked LBS 1.3 which came with the alloy AST, i think the standard one is 0.9,(not 100% on that) i wonder if the 1.3 would help eliminate these problems or cause another problem in the system somewhere else! but iv\'e had no problems at all with it,
Bob
Martin. With the Pettit one it still overheated it just took a little longer to do so. I dont have a spare stock one to try otherwise i would try it...
Bob the stock pressure caps are both 0.9 bar...
Mark all the caps have been changed 3 times each...
Would it be helpful to know what the exact temp is? You can get a temp from the front and back of the block by reading the two sensors. I know the stock gauge isn\'t very precise, and there seemed to be some debate as to how accurate the PFC would be, but you can quite easily cailbrate the sensors using the following method:
Remove the coolant temp sensor (ECU) from behind the filler neck. Remove the coolant temp sensor (gauge) from the back of the block on the left hand side just by the oil pressure sensor.
Get a load of ice, and pack as much as you can into a pint glass, and fill with water. Place the sensor into the water as close to as many ice cubes as possible and leave it for a minute of two. If you have a thermometer place it right by the sensor and read off the temp. If not assume that the temp is probably 4 degrees.
Then take a voltmeter and measure the resistance of the sensor. If it\'s a two terminal one (I THINK the ecu one is) measure across the terminals. If it\'s a single, measure from the bit that srews into the block and the terminal.
Note down what you read off. Then repeat with boiling water. Ideally after that you should repeat with water at 50 deg. but this might be tricky without a thermometer... You can then graph the results and get a map of what resistance the sensor will read at different temps. It\'s exponential with a lot of sensors, so three readings are required really.
Then you can sit a multimeter on the sensors and measure their resistance as she warms up. You know it\'ll be accurate as you\'ve just calibrated the sensors yourself. I know it\'s a bit of a fiddle, but it would be some data that you can absolutely rely on.
I hope that might help a bit.
One other thing I did think of... Can you measure the pressure in the system while it\'s heating up? RS components probably sell a gauge that could be used to measure it for about £50. Just tee it into a coolant line. Measure the temp and pressure, and you\'ll soon tell if it\'s temps rising that are actually causing the pressure build-up.
If you do get somewhere with that, and you want to get some further data I have a box which should be able to datalog temp and pressure if it\'s set up right. PM me if I can help with anything.
Good luck :Thumbs-up
Wow some detailed info there bud...thx for that! Im not actually going to do anything with the car for the time being because 1) Sh!tty weather 2) cba & 3) cba...might muster up some energy on monday :o
I think at this stage you may be best off putting it all back together as it was and let the Engine guy have a look.
TBH i don\'t think this has anything to do with Gauges or Temp Sencers etc this is a Coolant system fault and a big one. To over pressurize a 0.9 bar cap like that takes a fair bit and there isn\'t alot that will make an RX7 overheat that dramaticly.
Quote from: RixioSh!tty weather 2) cba & 3) cba...:o
Lol. Fair enough.
Quote from: GrizzlyTBH i don\'t think this has anything to do with Gauges or Temp Sencers etc this is a Coolant system fault and a big one. To over pressurize a 0.9 bar cap like that takes a fair bit and there isn\'t alot that will make an RX7 overheat that dramaticly.
A totally fair point, but I\'m not suggesting it\'s gauges at fault, just trying to invent a way to gather some more info on the problem in a scientific manner.
The method of calibrating and reading the sensors directly might be useful to someone else in the future, so I think it\'s valuable to share the knowledge.
Hope all goes well, anyway. May the goddess of all spinning, orbiting things smile upon you ;) lol
Iv just got the point that im tired of it. Iv run out of energy/patience...specially the weather being as it is. I think as soon as i get the keys to the new house i can work on it all day & night because its a heated garage.The car is back together so to speak apart from the strut & filters so not much to do on that front...
Im trying to sell lots of bits and peices to get some cash organised so i can get the car to the builders & let him check it out, but without an income it may be abit difficult :o
It\'s a harsh problem you\'ve got, but I know the feeling. I\'ve got an MR2 that has a problem with oil draining back to the sump when it\'s sat for more than an hour, and no-one can work out what is causing the problem. The result is that it sounds like somone has emptied a bag of spanners into the engine when you start it, and it\'s goes through big ends like they\'re going out of fashion! It\'s been at the latest garage since febuary.
My rex project has been carried out largely while I\'ve had no income, so I can sympathise there too. It\'s moving on now that I\'ve got some money coming in, but it\'s still hard.
Sorry for the wait on this but i was waiting on various bits & now finally getting somewhere with it!
Well this was the apparrent cause of all this crap over the last 7 months...heres the pic...its the size of a 5p piece. For those who dont know, this is the front plate of the engine block, the bit thats broken is the outer lip of the water seal housing groove.
So its another £2000odd for another rebuild for another year...when will it end:2Rolleyes
Sorry to hear mate!
Theres only one way to cheer yourself up after bad car news - buying more goodies :D
Oh dear :- (
I think its my turn next...
My car pushes water out the overflow, but the weird thing is, it usually happens only after I turn the engine off???
You can usaly tell if its got a Bad Seal or Groove if the Pipes go hard whilst being still on Cold start.
Do you have a PFC? if so watch the temp when you shut down it may be that you have a dodgy rad/Thermostat or something causing it to get a bit hotter than Normal then when its shut off the temp rises and it boils over.
Quote from: MartinyOh dear :- (
I think its my turn next...
My car pushes water out the overflow, but the weird thing is, it usually happens only after I turn the engine off???
This could well be your AST cap. When you shut the engine down the temp of the (now stationary) coolant is going to rise due to the fact that heat is no longer being removed from the system via the radiator. Perhaps if the AST spring has weakened with age, when the engine heatsoaks and the coolant expands, the pressure is enought to force large amounts of coolant past the cap and down into the overflow tank. Do you get any associated boiling noises when you shut down?
EDIT: Jusr re-read your post from the previous page. Did you get around to fitting an original AST after? Cos like you said some of the aftermarket items have cap seating issues. Still think it\'s worth checking the cap, in particular the seal and the little return valve.
Quote from: TwistedHumourSorry to hear mate!
Theres only one way to cheer yourself up after bad car news - buying more goodies :D
I know that one. Though in my case it was more like:
"My engine needs rebuilding"
"Sure, would you like anything else; porting? 3mm Seals"
"Nope, just a straight rebuild please"
"Sure?"
"Oh sod it, go on then"
:D :D
Need some new treads as soon as I get it back too. And I thought women cost a lot to keep...
Quote from: RixioSorry for the wait on this but i was waiting on various bits & now finally getting somewhere with it!
Well this was the apparrent cause of all this crap over the last 7 months...heres the pic...its the size of a 5p piece. For those who dont know, this is the front plate of the engine block, the bit thats broken is the outer lip of the water seal housing groove.
So its another £2000odd for another rebuild for another year...when will it end:2Rolleyes
At least it will have a bit of closure to it. All the stuuf thats been done to it will make it like brand spanking when the engine is back in one peice.
Can you please pass my Db meter onto kev, if he hasn\'t rung you already. He needs it to test his new exhaust setup.
Shaun
Okidoky, Kevs around here pretty often so will do :)
Bit of closure hehehe...you dont know the half of it yet Shaun! Anyways best leave that for a propper conversation!
But yep absolutely everything is or will be brand new now :D
Quote from: MillSpeedThis could well be your AST cap. When you shut the engine down the temp of the (now stationary) coolant is going to rise due to the fact that heat is no longer being removed from the system via the radiator. Perhaps if the AST spring has weakened with age, when the engine heatsoaks and the coolant expands, the pressure is enought to force large amounts of coolant past the cap and down into the overflow tank. Do you get any associated boiling noises when you shut down?
EDIT: Just re-read your post from the previous page. Did you get around to fitting an original AST after? Cos like you said some of the aftermarket items have cap seating issues. Still think it\'s worth checking the cap, in particular the seal and the little return valve.
Well Clive sent me a used AST cap, no difference.
No I havent tried a Std AST yet.
I have only std ECU.
Yes I get bubbling noise! :- ((((((
Quote from: MartinyOh dear :- (
I think its my turn next...
My car pushes water out the overflow, but the weird thing is, it usually happens only after I turn the engine off???
Yes, that happened with mine martin.....when my coolant seals had failed. It got to the point of doing it each and every time. I take it you are still having problems? :(
Quote from: MartinyNo I havent tried a Std AST yet.
Might be worth a shot, clutching at straws I know but you\'ll kick yourself if that\'s all it was. Also, try a brand new AST cap rather than a used one. You can get em cheap enough from any good motor factors. The bubbling suggests maybe the cap isn\'t allowing the coolant to pressurise and therefore it\'s boiling when the engine heatsoaks.
Quote from: MartinyWell Clive sent me a used AST cap, no difference.
No I havent tried a Std AST yet.
I have only std ECU.
Yes I get bubbling noise! :- ((((((
Hi Martin,
Sometimes the problem that you are having with your car is due to there being an airlock in the system,they are pretty notorious the get all of the air out.
The AST tank should be a stock one if possible with a new Mazda cap,also the thermostat maybe playing up.(Causing an overheat to an extent)
Ontop of this check that your fans are working,as when driving say over 20mph everything maybe ok,but slower can also cause overheating.
The stock Mazda guage on the dash only moves into the danger zone when the temp is REALLY high,they are poor really.
You could get a sniffer test to see if there is any exhaust gas in the coolant.
Regards
Carl
Thanks Carl. Very short on time / funds at the moment, or else I would probably bring it to you so we can have a look.
Getting a garage to check for hydrocarbons in the coolant should be really cheap, it was only £20 for that and a pressure test when I had it done in Cambs a while back.
Hey thats great.
I am on DIY projects now, plus the RX-2, plus the 323 is still broken, so its on my mind but not in my priorities right now ! :-((
I know how you feel. I had similar issues with mine starting way back in August not long after I\'d bought it and have only just been able to afford to get it properly sorted (unfortunately it was water seals on mine), it\'s stressful when you\'ve got a problem but not the means to sort it out.