Alright Folks,
Looking to pick up either an FC or FD next year as a project car so looking for some info on the T2......
1 - How much should i expect to pay for one with decent bodywork, average rust and an engine in need of a standard rebuild (low compression but not totally dead)
2 - When rebuliding roughly how much should i budget for the standard kit of seals gaskets etc........
3 - What should i do when rebuilding, was thinking of a 1/2 bridge port as its gonna be a "weekend" car so can live with the idle etc.... anything else while it would be out?
4 - How much should i expect for an ECU and how much to get it mapped once i do some other mods?
5 - After the standard rebuild with porting i plan on uprating the fuel supply / air intake / exhaust / intercooler, what BHP roughly should i expect max with the above and the aftermarket ECU plus map.....
Apologies for all the questions but just weighing up options!
Ok, here we go :-
The price varies considerably, I would always say buy the best you can, £2000 should get you a nice solid one with a good engine. I would seriously advise against buying one thats on its way out in terms of engine wear, it makes life easier to have a runner. Seals and gaskets cost around £320 IIRC, apex seals £280+, Housings £300ish etc.
Porting, is it going to be abused on the track/strip regularly? If not then stick with a large street port IMO, it will be a nicer car to drive. I\'d be inclined to fit an uprated clutch while its out, also look into remove the hydrostatic fan and fiting an electric one instead.
For big power (Beyond 275-290) you will need to do/obtain the following :-
Bigger capacity fuel pump
Bigger secondaries (size will be dependant on power)
Front mount intercooler or bigger stock mount with some additional form of charge cooling. (Water injection for preference)
Decent Turbo back exhaust system
Only fit a Cone or similar type of filter if you can get a good air feed to it.
You may even want to go for a larger turbo because I dont think the stock one will give you much more than 300? (Tuner or someone jump in here please)
I\'d also recommend fitting new bushes and shocks, also take the time to service the front and rear calipers properly, the FC stops stunningly quickly, if it doesnt feel right chances are you have some siezed pistons in the calipers. (FC and FD calipers are almost identical, in fact not sure what the difference actually is, they are the same size and both are 4 pot)
Bear in mind a TII will make well over 260bhp with a Turbo back exhaust, filter, FCD and ECU chip, and in this trim its quite capable of shaming most things on the road. At the end of the day, money talks, do it right first time :)
buy this one
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27447
or at least get some ideas, its currently the quickest FC on the 1/4 mile in the UK that the club knows of.
rub it in why don\'t you. Choice is yours on cars but would go for an Fd better handling car and the way the prices are going you can buy an fd for less than some fc\'s. Antnicuk\'s car would put most fd\'s to shame I do hasten to add. But the Fd in my opinion is a better car for it\'s money i.e a lot les rusty unless you get a uk one
ah hem, mine is not rusty either, and is fully undersealed aswell.
But i do agree, FD\'s are very cheap and there are lots for sale. But FC\'s are old school and retro is cool.........
You gotta bear in mind for the price of mine you will get a stock or mildly modded FD and mods are expensive. There are not many FD\'s that are as quick as mine with the handling sorted....... Those bushes are nearly always worn out and not cheap to replace.
^ What he said! Have to say, if you buy a cheap FD thats exactly what you are going to get, you get what you pay for. FC = :god
On first look i prefer the looks of the FD but i want something more retro and the looks of the FC are growing on me by the day......
Brett - When you say buy one for 2k with a decent engine do you mean running okay but still due a rebuild or do you mean one that is totally fine and doesn\'t need a rebuild.....
So for the FC rebuild kit it should be in the region of 1k then?
How much is all the necessary suspension bushes, when i say necessary i basically mean all of them, on a car thats around 15 yo i would rather just replace everything.
How much roughly for a decent FMIC kit and what are the implications for the radiator? If i go for an FMIC is it still worth water injection?
Maybe a large street port would be better then, not just a track car so drivability is still a consideration.
Last question i\'m still unsure of is the ECU, for the aforementioned mods would i always need an aftermarket ECU over a piggyback chip, if so then who can tune.... again costs involved would be nice.....
Antnic - Thats a lovely car and while i know to get there i would need way more than £4500 it is a project so wanna do the work myself, good luck with the sale though!
Oh, one other question - What is the 0-60 time (roughly) on a stock TII....
Cheers for the advice so far.....
Right, ECU options:
Microtech LT8s or LT10s (mine is running - ok will be when it\'s back - an LT10s) - a lot of the FCs and also Tim\'s gen 1 drag car run Microtechs in the UK (you do have to run premix with them as they don\'t control the OMP) email me markparmstrong@hotmail.com if you need any more info on them
Apexi PFC (you either need to pay a lot for the specific FC varient, if you can find one, or have a custom loom/plug and play adapter made up - Antnicuk has done this so he can tell you abouts costs and issues)
Haltech (very few people use them here, but v popular in the US and Aus) tend to be a bit pricey
or you have the Greddy E-Manage piggy back unit - not a full ECU replacement
My FMIC was a custom job, used an Evo VI IC and had the hardpiping custom made by RX Motors total cost inc a good 2nd hand VI IC was about £700 inc labour + VAT. However the piping and IC may be too small for the turbo I\'m having next so It\'ll all have to go!
The stock turbo is good for about 280-300bhp at the fly, but if you went for a 1/2 bridge you\'d find the turbo was hitting max boost at about 3500rpm and tailing off to about 5psi by 5500! (experience tells me this!). The bigger the porting, the larger air flow you need through the turbo.
stock 0-60 is around 6.3-6.5 seconds
From what I\'ve read with the stock turbo, it has problems flowing air much beyond the 300BHP mark.
You can improve slightly on the stock turbo by porting the wastegate - which will allow it to flow exhaust better. There are also some hybrid turbo\'s that use the stock hot side - so no need to change exhaust manifold, but they use high flow turbine, ported wastegate and a much larger cold side compressor. With better fuelling these can get you upto about 500BHP fly - which is a lot for the FC - and you will almost certainly have to port the engine to realise powers beyond 350BHP.
Mark - Which of the two Microtech ECU\'s is best and are they plug and play for initial setup... ie once all my mods are done would i just literally swap over ECU\'s and be able to drive off boost until mapped... also, who can remap these and how much should i expect....... If possible i\'m looking for a rough quote on how much to budget for the ECU then how much for the mapping session....
Prof - For the hybrid turbo\'s would it be the standard OEM manifold or an aftermarket freer flowing manifold with the standard shaped "flange" for the turbo........ Also, how much roughly for one of these hybrid turbo\'s and where from?
im sure i spotted a Hybrid on the aus rotary site it was about $500 - so thats about £250 - then plus shipping
the ECU - pip is prob the closest and might charge you £200 - £250 for the initial map for it ( and the ECU will cost you about £550 ish - but if you tell them the mods - they will try and put a base map in for you - or so im lead to believe )
im after the microtech - but im going FMIC first then doing the ecu - im only aming for about 200 ( ish ) at the wheels - its enough for me to be honest - and im not sure how many miles are left on the engine
you want an FC i can tell :D :D - come join the party
Stu
Yep i\'m defo being drawn to the FC at the moment,
Current Plan -
1 - Pick up an FC that is due / needs a rebuild...... not too concerned about bodywork, even the rusty floor.
2 - Remove engine, full rebuild and while out send off plates for large street port.
3 - Install uprated injectors, fuel pump and swirl pot.
4 - Replace clutch re-install engine replacing all hoses.
5 - Put in FMIC.
6 - Install larger "hybrid" turbo (not necessarily at this stage)
7 - Install full exhaust system from downpipe back.
8 - Install ECU, Get car running.....
9 - Replace all brake lines with braided hoses, recondition calipers, fit upgraded pads and discs all round. Fill with 5.1 fluid and bleed
10 - Install new shocks and springs, replace suspension bushes.
11 - Get car mapped and enjoy!!!
Anything fundamental missing from my list ? Some of the order will be out like i guess doing suspension may be slightly easier when the engine is out and stuff but just looking to put a skeleton plan together so i can start trying to tie up some costs to each element......
Cheers again,
Chris
Quote from: chris_c201Mark - Which of the two Microtech ECU\'s is best and are they plug and play for initial setup... ie once all my mods are done would i just literally swap over ECU\'s and be able to drive off boost until mapped... also, who can remap these and how much should i expect....... If possible i\'m looking for a rough quote on how much to budget for the ECU then how much for the mapping session....
Prof - For the hybrid turbo\'s would it be the standard OEM manifold or an aftermarket freer flowing manifold with the standard shaped "flange" for the turbo........ Also, how much roughly for one of these hybrid turbo\'s and where from?
LT10 has uprated coils and ignitors (stock items are powerful enough really) the LT8 uses stock coils and ignitors
pricewise the LT10s is about £80 more than the 8 (at least that is the price I have got them for) and Grinder was right about the approx price for the LT8s (depending on exchange rate really)
Yes the Microtech\'s base map is ok to drive until mapped, Pip at WGT will map a microtech as will Tim at RX Motors and Jeff at RE Worx.
Not Plug and play, but they are supplied with a replacement loom, which in\'t too bad to fit if you have a basic knowledge of engines and engine electrics. The wiring diagram is good for the LT8s, the ignitor module wiring instruction on the 10 are a bit iffey as certain bits appear to not be shown!
Andresturbo in the states was doing the hybrids for about £360 - then you\'ve got duty, import and postage which for something this big and pricy could add another £200 on if your unlucky :(
Mark (Sadgoth) put me onto RX Motors - they can get them for the £450 ish plus your old turbo. They fit on standard exhaust manifold, but you should change your exhaust system and air intake otherwise it\'s a waste of money as you are restricting it so much. I am going to ask Santa for one !
Street porting is probably a good match for this as well.
It\'s certainly a good mod for plenty of oomph without losing driveability
Well I sold mine for about £1900 in the end, and that had a brand new engine with around 10k (may have been more?) on it, full leather interior (custom job by recaro), 3" Stainless exhaust from the turbo back, K&N panel, Blitz BOV, Knightsports FCD and a PANspeed tuned ECU (Sport tuned with provsion for Exhaust and intake), prior to the ECU swap it made 250hp/236ft-lb (196atw) after the ECU it became a lot quicker.... so yeah for £2000 you can get a pretty good example :D
Heres the car :- http://videos.streetfire.net/player.aspx?fileid=405BFB39-F3FE-4832-8B35-CC35F3FA6BC9
Now owned by RETROBATE on here.
Go, get one, go shopping this weekend! :D
Thinking i\'m maybe best doing the engine work in two stages......
First Stage - Rebuild, port, upgrade exhaust and intake, get standard turbo wastegate ported (how much does this cost) and upgrade fueling. New Microtech LT8 ECU plus map.....
Second Stage - After running like this for a couple of months upgrade the turbo to a hybrid and get a new map.....
sounds like a good plan. mail me your number if you want more info about these things as I\'m going through a major process currently of Larger turbo, FMIC, uprated fueling, already got the 1/2 bridge and LT10s
Quote from: chris_c201Yep i\'m defo being drawn to the FC at the moment,
Current Plan -
1 - get big loan
Anything fundamental missing from my list ? Some of the order will be out like i guess doing suspension may be slightly easier when the engine is out and stuff but just looking to put a skeleton plan together so i can start trying to tie up some costs to each element......
Cheers again,
Chris
glad your going down this road. it will be worth it in the end. it might take a bit longer than you think it will though.http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1600
Lol, yes money is a consideration although my biggest stopper at the mo is living in a flat.....
Planning to move house early next year at which point i\'ll be selling my Impreza, buying a Bora (or something like) oil burner as my day to day drive and then the RX.....
Mark - When i finally get round to this (i\'m chomping at the bit here, lol) i\'ll defo be calling on all the knowledge i can get my hands on so will almost certainly be in touch if your still living the rotary dream!
Hi Chris
I recently picked up an FC and am about to steal/embark on your 11point plan. I\'ve already pulled and stripped the engine.. currently cleaning up the parts.. and just waiting for some inspiration.
i got a T2 cabrio that just needs finishing off really - it runs and the engine is sweet - chassis and body work is fantastic!! i got loads of bits for it too like leathers and full stainless exhaust -
save you hassle??
Good luck Bobster, keep me posted on progress and how many things i\'ve missed off my 11 point plan!! lol
I\'ve got an 86 FC turbo body 13B 4 ported bp with 48IDA weber appox 230HP.
White colour light weight car with no frills like heavy items e.g turbo unit,carpet,ICE etc and total strip!
Turbo hood for air ram charger to 48 IDA unit and 2 spares non turbo
Spares 4 wings,bumpers,carpet etcccc.
Standard turbo11 wheels with ToyoR888 around and spare efi 15"wheels(8)
2 1/4 koni coilover all around.
blue cobra kevlar bucket seats
I only using it for Scottish sprint championship so it\'s well known car in hillclimb/sprint sence.( never crash!!, only spin outs and ((touch wood!!)).
It\'s about everything in the car with no extra work on it.
plus with tax and mot
I am selling it if you interesting?
Regards
Ian
I\'ve got an 86 FC turbo body 13B 4 ported bp with 48IDA weber appox 230HP.
White colour light weight car with no frills like heavy items e.g turbo unit,carpet,ICE etc and total strip!
Turbo hood for air ram charger to 48 IDA unit and 2 spares non turbo
Spares 4 wings,bumpers,carpet etcccc.
Standard turbo11 wheels with ToyoR888 around and spare efi 15"wheels(8)
2 1/4 koni coilover all around.
blue cobra kevlar bucket seats
I only using it for Scottish sprint championship so it\'s well known car in hillclimb/sprint sence.( never crash!!, only spin outs and ((touch wood!!)).
It\'s about everything in the car with no extra work on it.
plus with tax and mot
I am selling it if you interesting?
Regards
Ian
I\'ve got an 86 FC turbo body 13B 4 ported bp with 48IDA weber appox 230HP.
White colour light weight car with no frills like heavy items e.g turbo unit,carpet,ICE etc and total strip!
Turbo hood for air ram charger to 48 IDA unit and 2 spares non turbo
Spares 4 wings,bumpers,carpet etcccc.
Standard turbo11 wheels with ToyoR888 around and spare efi 15"wheels(8)
2 1/4 koni coilover all around.
blue cobra kevlar bucket seats
I only using it for Scottish sprint championship so it\'s well known car in hillclimb/sprint sence.( never crash!!, only spin outs and ((touch wood!!)).
It\'s about everything in the car with no extra work on it.
plus with tax and mot
I am selling it if you interesting?
Regards
Ian
I\'ve got an 86 FC turbo body 13B 4 ported bp with 48IDA weber appox 230HP.
White colour light weight car with no frills like heavy items e.g turbo unit,carpet,ICE etc and total strip!
Turbo hood for air ram charger to 48 IDA unit and 2 spares non turbo
Spares 4 wings,bumpers,carpet etcccc.
Standard turbo11 wheels with ToyoR888 around and spare efi 15"wheels(8)
2 1/4 koni coilover all around.
blue cobra kevlar bucket seats
I only using it for Scottish sprint championship so it\'s well known car in hillclimb/sprint sence.( never crash!!, only spin outs).
It\'s about everything in the car with no extra work on it.
plus with tax and mot
I am selling it if you interesting!.
Regards
Ian
Chris, are you still looking for a car?
Fraid not mate... you selling?
Phase 1 of plan happened, bought an oil burner and started looking for houses with drive etc but then it all went pear shaped as i couldn\'t find any decent houses and ended up buying a big split level apartment.
This then meant i went and bought another Impreza... lol
Do you have a link to an ad? Just out of curiousity..
Good luck with the sale!!
I have been offered another project so i am selling
Since we spoke i have done quite a bit more to it, (i cant stop playing thats my problem)
I put tein rear suspension which is lovelly and makes it so controllable. Its got Efini Bucket seats.
I built a new engine using FD Internals using all new Mazda bearings and seals, with bigger ports and turbo and a complete new exhaust. New wastegate and clutch, and realigned the front bumper after the haybail incident.
The engine has only done 1500 miles, its had a first mapping session up to 1 bar and is ready for more but i only use 0.8 bar on the track as any more and traction is a problem.
Its been fully tested as most of the miles were put on going to the Nurburgring last month, i also did a track day on saturday where she pasted the 2 other FD\'s that were there and everything else.
As it has a new engine i couldnt let it go for less than £4950, that will still include the full body kit (still not fitted), a shed load of spares including front and rear bumpers, aliminium bonnet, clutch and many other parts.
See these links for some piccys
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37877
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39457&highlight=fc%27s+rule
Lovely setup you have there!!
My head is saying silly things like sell the subaru and buy this plus a wee runaround... must ignore voices!! lol
At that price i\'m sure you won\'t struggle to sell though! Good luck again...
this must be worth 7000