my car has a couple of times now made a funny noise on start up. i am sure it sounds like it was running on one rotor. either after 20-30 seconds or after you give it a little throttle it clears and runs on both again.
a wise man said to me that this sounds like there could be the start of the engine going, as if it was on one rotor it could be the water seal(i think?) leaking water into one of the housings therefore not allowing that rotor to fire until it has been chucked out etc.
this has only happened 2-3 times and it has normally been when it has not been started for 2+ days. as it is my daily driver at present, it is run everyday so i assume it never has long enough for the water to bulid up, therefore does not always cause me the problem.
i have no proof of engine rebuild so it is probably due.
anyone know if this sound correct etc. or if there are any tests i can do to find out more.
i was going to get my new apexi fitted and mapped this week, if it sounds like this is engine. would you agree there doesnt seem much point as it would be a bit of a waste as it would just have to be remapped after rebuild etc. seems an expensive thing to do if the engine is only going to last weeks or a month etc
if it is as above, will it get worse or will it just not get better. eg as long as it is started daily might the engine live for a while yet?
cheers for reading/helping etc
sam
Ok, first of all, yes, coolant seal failure can cause the engine to start on one rotor. But this is not necassarily the case. You haven\'t mentioned that you\'ve lost any coolant: its impossible for you to lose coolant into your rotor chambers without losing coolant overall.
However, if you are concerned that you may be experiencing coolant seal failure, it is possible to get it checked. You can have a garage perform a coolant pressure test - this identifies whether your coolant system loses pressure, thereby identifying that you have a leak in your system. If you do lose pressure, but cannot see any external loss of coolant, then it\'s likely that it\'s the coolant seals.
Ok, if you do determine that your coolant seals have gone, then there\'s probably not much point in getting it mapped as when you get your engine rebuilt, you may as well get it ported too. If you don\'t want to have it ported, you can still have it mapped before it\'s rebuilt.
Oh, and if your coolant seals have gone, then over time it\'ll get worse and worse.
But it\'s not necassarily your coolant seals. As soon as there\'s a problem with a rotary, most people assume the worst!
Hope that helps.
D1, how old are the sparkplugs? Maybe one of them is fouling occasionally.
cheers
however i have recentlyish blown a small hole in the top hose going to the rad. i therefore replaced this. since then i have a number of time been topping up the water when the car is completely cold. i thought it was kind of just the air bubbles coming to the top kind of like bleeding it. but i have been doing this for a good 3 weeks now. i dont always need to top it up but most time i check every 3-4 days it does require a little water.
if i get a rebuild done, i prob will port it etc. so will prob cancel the appointment until i know more.
i will try and get a presure test done early week. in doing the pressure test i cant in anyway speed up the process can i or even cause the seal to fail completely?
Quote from: MartinyD1, how old are the sparkplugs? Maybe one of them is fouling occasionally.
full service including plugs and all fluids about 4k ago. almost as soon as i bought it. so 3 months maybe just over.
anyone else got any ideas?
I havent read any of this, but does white smoke accompany the 1 rotor on startup? do you keep topping up coolant?
if you have both of the above symptoms, coolant seal failure. I notice your in St albands - i had a coolant seal go on my car, pop down to watford with it if you like and ill have a look. 07977 015 912.
oh, and doa champagne test
mmmmm.....champagne!
Sounds exactly like what has happened to mine. As nikp says it will only get worse with time. I could smell coolant in the exhaust fumes at first, I then did a spark plug change and you could see/smell coolant on the end of the plugs, then finally a nice collection of mayonaise under the oil cap.... and even traces of oil in the coolant!!! :( :(
I\'d get it checked out as you may find the car will soon spit its dumby out and overheat... Like mine did :(
This is basicially what everyone else has said but I would do this in this order....
I would say do the champagne test (which you can do yourself)
Have a look in the oil filler neck and under the cap for any signs of mayo. You may also find you can see traces of \'water\' here which you can get on your fingers and see the colour and smell, which could also tell you it\'s coolant.
Look at the level check (dipstick?) in the header tank to see if you can find any oil deposits on there (they will be reasonably small)
You may not necessarially find that the level has dropped as the system will pressureise and may actually increase the level in the tank! (I think I have got that correct?)
Good luck and I hope you are wrong but at least you have caught it very early if it is indeed water seal failure.
champagne test?
Take filler cap off filler neck, and run engine. If you see little tiny bubbles (like those seen in champagne) then it\'s almost certainly water seals.
If the water keeps bubbling over the top, then i believe it is also screwed (At least, that\'s what mine did!!)
Quote from: nikpTake filler cap off filler neck, and run engine. If you see little tiny bubbles (like those seen in champagne) then it\'s almost certainly water seals.
If the water keeps bubbling over the top, then i believe it is also screwed (At least, that\'s what mine did!!)
Do you do this from cold?
Wait till the car has run up to operating temperatures.
Although, take the cap off before hand. We don\'t want you taking the cap off when the coolants hot and pressurized!
Oh yeah, forgot to mention that... Whoops.
Although it\'s normally not too bad if you undo it after a short period of time.
Also, when I did mine it started to melt the bottle - not much but dont forget the water will be around 90degrees so you might want to keep a rag handy too!
so what should it do just stay at a set level, because i have a feeling it will just slowly over flow.
just to double check this is water filler neck and not ast etc
Quote from: Ricco_04Also, when I did mine it started to melt the bottle - not much but dont forget the water will be around 90degrees so you might want to keep a rag handy too!
melt what bottle?
This is what when I tested mine.
Pop the bonnet, take the filler cap off and start the engine. Dont worry, the water will not overflow. Next get a bottle and hold it over the filler cap making a good a seal as possable. You may want to get some old rag around it too just incase you spill some coolant. Wait till the car is fully up to temperature.
If your waterseal is on the way out then you will see the coolant slowly make it\'s way into the bottle as it\'s pressureising the system. Along with this you will also see tiny bubbles which is why it\'s called the champagne test.
This is what I did and if I have anything wrong then please please correct! :Thumbs-up
then what do i do with the coolant in an upside down bottle? lol
Quote from: D1 WTFthen what do i do with the coolant in an upside down bottle? lol
Let go quickly and run :D
Quote from: Ricco_04This is basicially what everyone else has said but I would do this in this order....
I would say do the champagne test (which you can do yourself)
Correct
Have a look in the oil filler neck and under the cap for any signs of mayo. You may also find you can see traces of \'water\' here which you can get on your fingers and see the colour and smell, which could also tell you it\'s coolant.
Not true. A failed coolant seal will almost never result in water in the oil. My oil also has mayo in it due to condensation, not a gone seal
Look at the level check (dipstick?) in the header tank to see if you can find any oil deposits on there (they will be reasonably small)
Again, a blown coolant seal will not cause oil and water mixture
You may not necessarially find that the level has dropped as the system will pressureise and may actually increase the level in the tank! (I think I have got that correct?)
Air seeks the highest point, which is out of the filler neck. as a result, you wont ever see a higher level than you have, unless you got an airlock
Good luck and I hope you are wrong but at least you have caught it very early if it is indeed water seal failure.
Champagne test is done by having the car cold, take the cap off, put an upturned bottle in the filler neck with the bottom cut off, seal the bottom with tape/rags or whatever and run the engine up to temp. If you see a constant stream of little bubbles (like in a glass of champagne) you have a problem. Some bubbles are normal.
are you getting white smoke on startup? if not, it could just be a failed AST cap mate, don\'t spaz out just yet.
Quote from: Ricco_04This is basicially what everyone else has said but I would do this in this order....
I would say do the champagne test (which you can do yourself)
Correct
Have a look in the oil filler neck and under the cap for any signs of mayo. You may also find you can see traces of \'water\' here which you can get on your fingers and see the colour and smell, which could also tell you it\'s coolant.
Not true. A failed coolant seal will almost never result in water in the oil. My oil also has mayo in it due to condensation, not a gone seal
Look at the level check (dipstick?) in the header tank to see if you can find any oil deposits on there (they will be reasonably small)
Again, a blown coolant seal will not cause oil and water mixture
You may not necessarially find that the level has dropped as the system will pressureise and may actually increase the level in the tank! (I think I have got that correct?)
Air seeks the highest point, which is out of the filler neck. as a result, you wont ever see a higher level than you have, unless you got an airlock
Good luck and I hope you are wrong but at least you have caught it very early if it is indeed water seal failure.
Pop the bonnet, take the filler cap off and start the engine. Dont worry, the water will not overflow. Next get a bottle and hold it over the filler cap making a good a seal as possable. You may want to get some old rag around it too just incase you spill some coolant. Wait till the car is fully up to temperature.
If your waterseal is on the way out then you will see the coolant slowly make it\'s way into the bottle as it\'s pressureising the system. Along with this you will also see tiny bubbles which is why it\'s called the champagne test.
Not necessarily. Water expands with heat, period. Your looking for bubbbles, not rising coolant - because thats normal.
This is what I did and if I have anything wrong then please please correct!
Champagne test is done by having the car cold, take the cap off, put an upturned bottle in the filler neck with the bottom cut off, seal the bottom with tape/rags or whatever and run the engine up to temp. If you see a constant stream of little bubbles (like in a glass of champagne) you have a problem. Some bubbles are normal.
are you getting white smoke on startup? if not, it could just be a failed AST cap mate, don\'t spaz out just yet.
Oh well, I got one right :(
Better read better next time :King (thank you for correcting me though, good info for me too :))
there has been a little white smoke on start up for a while now, only for 20-30 secs thought. i did ask about this previously and people said this was normal, or at least v.common.
i tried to smell it yesturday to see if i could smell coolant etc, but to be honest it just smells very strongly of petrol.
the AST cap on it is less than 2 months old.
will do a champagne test around lunch time. although i am now a little confused.
i chop the bottom of the bottle, then do i cover this back up with tape or just leave it open.
cheers
well did the champagne test, it did kind of bubble continuously, little bibbles etc but i am not sure. i spoke to rotechnics and they said that if it goes onto a single rotor on start up due to water seal failure this normally only happens when the car is warm. they said it wasnt impossible to do it cold thought. now a little confussed..................................
Thats rubbish.
The car will only do it when you shut the car off when its warm (i.e there is pressure in the coolant system.)
Do this test.
Warm the car up to operating temprature.
Park it up, switch the engine off.
Remove the coolant filler neck (be very careful) You only want to de-pressurise the system here, not lose any coolant.
put the cap back on.
Squeeze the pipe coming from the thermostat housing, it should be soft.
Start the car. Rev it hard a bit, or floor it up the road and turn the car off straight away.
Squeeze the pipe again, if its hard, or pressure is building too quick - it could be your seals.
You have some pretty classic symptoms. White smoke (Although not much) and 1 rotor on startup. Loss of coolant, bubbles in the coolant system.
Now all you need to do is check for early pressurisation of the coolant system, smell the coolant after the cars running (does it smell of exhaust?) and check under the car and see if the under the coolant overflow tank is always wet
Where is the coolant overflow tank?
Drivers side, in front of the wheel. It\'s where the excess water goes when the AST gets pressurized. If water is leaking out of that, it means the system is being over-pressurized, or there\'s too much coolant in the system.
if there is too much coolant in the system i was under the impression that the coolant light or buzzer came on? is this wrong?
just to check i get the right hose is it possible some one can post a pic so that i can do Bobfish\'s test (a couple of posts up), just be be sure i am doing it correct
Quoteif there is too much coolant in the system i was under the impression that the coolant light or buzzer came on? is this wrong?
No way dude! If there\'s too much coolant in the system, it\'ll eventually get pushed out of the system. The coolant level sensor merely makes contact with the fluid in the system and makes a circuit to turn the buzzer off. If there\'s not enough coolant, then no circuit will be made, and the buzzer will go off. But if there\'s too much coolant, a circuit is still made so the buzzer goes off.
Quote from: D1 WTFif there is too much coolant in the system i was under the impression that the coolant light or buzzer came on? is this wrong?
just to check i get the right hose is it possible some one can post a pic so that i can do Bobfish\'s test (a couple of posts up), just be be sure i am doing it correct
Just look straight down from the coolant filler cap in the centre of the engine. The hose comes down from that, across to the left and then to the front of the car to the top rad hose. You wont be able to get your arm in there with a standard airbox.
if you know any body with a co machine (mot center or garage) ,put the nozzle over the filler cap (expansion tank) and if it reads then there is co present ,so you have a leak from the combustion into water circuit,this is a good test for all petrol cars .then pull out the engine and fit a v8 job done !