at the moment my exhaust from the wastegate is going back into the exhaust. will it be as simple as chopping the pipe before it gets back in and welding the exhaust pipe to cover the hole?
will this effect the "flutter" i get from the waste gate
and has this got any negative effects apart from flames under the car
cheers jon :3gears-rh
negative ... they are VERY VERY loud !
Yeah, ask CLive what the yellow one was like....
if want the flutter type rally noise like I had disable your BOV/dump valve then you will get the compressor surge noise
yeap noise
very loud is not the word
the sound is emotional and that was on my mates toyota Starlet on a big turbo i can imagine the MOT tester and the police would not approve.
but then the MOT man should not be bringing it on boost so...
Quote from: BlitzBoyif want the flutter type rally noise like I had disable your BOV/dump valve then you will get the compressor surge noise
At the risk of opening a huge vat of worms:
*) Does this destroy your compressor wheel?
*) Does it introduce more lag though stalling the turbo?
(runs for cover) :)
Cheers, Paul.
edit: i\'m really a fan of that noise, despite my best attempts not to be :yes
Well i\'ve run a HKS TO4R with and without a BOV. TBH i did\'nt feel alot of diffrence but it made a lets say diffrent Noise :) Its suposed to stall the Turbo and take longer to respool but the diffrence in responce with the Bov was nothing to shout about!!
This question has come up a few time so i did a bit of reading up when i removed my BOV from my T2, Basicly if you have a Good Turbo (big shaft T4 etc) rather than your Cheap Ebay Turbo you can easy run without a BOV but if you run a Stock or Cheap Turbo without there is storys of it shearing the Drive shaft of the Turbo.
But i ran mine for a year without problems and tbh i would do it again as it sounds Cool as F**k.
a surge is quite a violent event for a turbo, the thrust on the bearings is quite likely to be reversed (thrust bearings tend to be biased to work best in the direction of normal thrust) + the shock loadings and reverse in torque. As people have said it will work, but will it last as long as one that has some means of preventing the surge ?
I maybe waffling a load of tosh but from my experience with cosworths and tuning them i know the following.
On a cossie the old skool style turbos T3,T34,T4 etc have older style bearings and on running without a BOV below 400bhp was not really a problem.
People also used to speak of BOV that became faulty could also cause the turbo to overspool meaning it ran far to fast. But i dont know much about that.
Anything over 400bhp meant over 2bar of boost so running without a BOV would reduce the life of your turbo significantly.
On the newer GT series turbos with there fancy ball bearings i have seen snapped shafts caused by not running a BOV, a GT35 turbo on a cossie with 2.5 bar of boost and no BOV was a no no.
The sound is awesome tho. i have a video of me doing the nurburging (i used no BOV on my cossie) and the "chatter" sounds awesome.
Quote from: CraigNI maybe waffling a load of tosh but from my experience with cosworths and tuning them i know the following.
On a cossie the old skool style turbos T3,T34,T4 etc have older style bearings and on running without a BOV below 400bhp was not really a problem.
People also used to speak of BOV that became faulty could also cause the turbo to overspool meaning it ran far to fast. But i dont know much about that.
Anything over 400bhp meant over 2bar of boost so running without a BOV would reduce the life of your turbo significantly.
On the newer GT series turbos with there fancy ball bearings i have seen snapped shafts caused by not running a BOV, a GT35 turbo on a cossie with 2.5 bar of boost and no BOV was a no no.
The sound is awesome tho. i have a video of me doing the nurburging (i used no BOV on my cossie) and the "chatter" sounds awesome.
Post that vidoe!!! :burnout :cool
Why not just fit an Anti surge compressor cover? They sound cool too:)
Quote from: GrizzlyWell i\'ve run a HKS TO4R with and without a BOV. TBH i did\'nt feel alot of diffrence but it made a lets say diffrent Noise :) Its suposed to stall the Turbo and take longer to respool but the diffrence in responce with the Bov was nothing to shout about!!
This question has come up a few time so i did a bit of reading up when i removed my BOV from my T2, Basicly if you have a Good Turbo (big shaft T4 etc) rather than your Cheap Ebay Turbo you can easy run without a BOV but if you run a Stock or Cheap Turbo without there is storys of it shearing the Drive shaft of the Turbo.
But i ran mine for a year without problems and tbh i would do it again as it sounds Cool as F**k.
same as you grizzly. i dont run a BOV and ive got a T04R its on full spool by 4.5
so by the sounds of this the hacksaw\'s coming out and i get my chainsaw rasp i want
Had the turbo off my mates car on the weekend (well I did most of the watching! :Giggle )
It\'s the Garret series BB tubbie running at only 0.9bar with no dump valve at all. It was like this since installing and has done abut 8000 miles (so not enough to really test to be honest) and has identical play to one off the shelf.
Don\'t forget, the WRC guys run with out BOV because they say it makes better response (ie : you are not removing the entire air in the system and at high revs turbo\'s spool back pretty quickly, it\'s more advantageous the bigger IC you have) They also use anti lag though. Personally I would always use a dump valve :)
The screamer pipe is illegal but very few mot guy\'s really say anything & the old bill just get to hear the car on idle when they pull you up :p
It should be a case of blocking up the hole and safely redirecting the pipe. Can\'t think of any other issue\'s off the top of my head?
hacksaw comes out weekend then!:)
Go screamer! As for the old bill there hardly likley to look under your car to see whats there and there arn\'t any noise limits for cars as such in this country anyway, about all they can do is give you a ASBO.
Kevin
SCEAMER SCREAMER :god
imaging a low level fighter jet on a fly by :p :p :p
The noise of the screamer is something to behold.
It scorches and rips the air (not to mention your ear drums if you get passed by one with your window open! :2Confused )
You can also drive round with it not coming into play if you watch your boost if you are in a friendly mood! :D
Quote from: MikeLMRa surge is quite a violent event for a turbo, the thrust on the bearings is quite likely to be reversed (thrust bearings tend to be biased to work best in the direction of normal thrust) + the shock loadings and reverse in torque. As people have said it will work, but will it last as long as one that has some means of preventing the surge ?
I think the suspected damage of compressor surge is well over hyped. Rally Cars do not use BOVS! in fact spool up time is lessoned without the BOV as the turbo does not have repressurise the intercooler and intercooler pipes
Thanks for the replies guys - very tempting! :D
So, if i did disconnect the BOV - do i block the pipe or no?
Cheers, Paul.
I\'d say if you have a Good quality Turbo (Surge housing is an advantage ;)) then you can run with no BOV, but i would\'nt if you\'ve got a Cheap or Stock Turbo.
Do you block the BOV pipe or not???? May be a good idea.
Yeh screamer pipe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The idea is you\'ll be going so fast you won\'t be able to hear it :) And if you get pulled by the 5.0. you just sit there idleing and scratch you head??? Me making lots of noise??? i don\'t think so look its not loud when i rev it..... :chat
Im not convinced if i like mine. They are very very loud with a bit more loud thrown in :Giggle its good if someone has annoyed you and you overtake and they have the window open, i couldnt imagine anything more frightening, well maybe a midget version of Lorriane Kelly in a bikini and a wanton look. :2Rolleyes
I haven\'t heard one and the descriptions sound mental. When do they scream? under WOT or when you back off? I\'m a little confused.
cheers
G
When the wastegate spring gets over powered by boost, think mine is a 10psi spring. All hell breaks loose and the exhaust gas goes out of the little wastegate \'screamer\' pipe. Maybe someone more technical could explain it, im thick as a brick :Viking
When you reach boost pressure that you have designed the system to run at, the wastegate will open to remove the excess pressure which then goes down a pipe and usually back into the exhaust system to keep it quieter (screamer pipe does not go back into exhaust)
So if you drive off boost then it will not open the wastegate and thus no noise - so it is round town friendly :King
So what he ^ said really :yes
Nah.. you don\'t need a screamer pipe.. just get one of these.. http://www.vroombox.com/
so you cant put a screamer pipe on stock twins?
nope only on something with an external wastegate
or a sepcially modded internal wastegate housing
twins on a RX this is not possible
Quote from: BlitzBoyI think the suspected damage of compressor surge is well over hyped. Rally Cars do not use BOVS! in fact spool up time is lessoned without the BOV as the turbo does not have repressurise the intercooler and intercooler pipes
Rally cars have turbo\'s designed to run like that and only do a few hundred miles under boost ... as I said they will not last as long as turbo that has not been subjected to a surge everytime you shut the throttles on it under boost.
just because somthing doesn\'t break the first time it surges (or 10\'000th time) doesn\'t mean that it\'s life isn\'t being reduced.
Indeed rally turbos also tend to use "maram" shafts much stronger to withstand the higher exhaust temps caused by running "anti lag"
so they can take a bit of compressor stall
would you get away with a sreamer pipe on track?
unlikely at most places, unless you drive off boost arround the sound sensors
Quote from: CraigNIndeed rally turbos also tend to use "maram" shafts much stronger to withstand the higher exhaust temps caused by running "anti lag"
so they can take a bit of compressor stall
different materials is all part of it, larger thrust bearings also play a big part (I see some turbo\'s are quoted as having 360 degree thrust bearings for example, I guess that means that they have a full 360 degree thrust bearing pad rather than a few smaller pads that won\'t take as much load.
the material you are thinking of is Mar M 247 (there are other grades) the Mar M stands for Martin Marietta Corp, who are part of Lockheed Martin
Quote from: MikeLMRRally cars have turbo\'s designed to run like that and only do a few hundred miles under boost ... as I said they will not last as long as turbo that has not been subjected to a surge everytime you shut the throttles on it under boost.
just because somthing doesn\'t break the first time it surges (or 10\'000th time) doesn\'t mean that it\'s life isn\'t being reduced.
So why dont they fit a bov which only costs a couple hundred pounds to safeguard reliabilty during the rally competition??
I ran without a BOV for 7 thousand miles no problem at all.
I havent seen any pictures or eveidence on all the forums and articles I have read showing damage due to compressor surge.
Granted it wont harm to have a BOV fitted, but I rather have the performance advantage of not having one fitted
those Marm 247 shaft things are like over £1000 for just the shaft.
So if they have a turbo made out of materials youd usually see NASA using then they dont really expect it to break in one days use
Jon
If you need a car to look at complete with screamer,i can pop round sunday after Santa Pod??
Quote from: robedwards99Nah.. you don\'t need a screamer pipe.. just get one of these.. http://www.vroombox.com/
"Instead of paying $500-$700 to improve the exhaust sound with an aftermarket Cat Back why not pay $159 and make your RX-8 sound like a 71’ Hemi Cuda?â€
:Hammer :rollin
sounds like a plan pete. gonna have a gander at your wi setup too mate.
Quote from: Mr J.Tsounds like a plan pete. gonna have a gander at your wi setup too mate.
No worries. Your going sunday aren\'t you??
yup yup but might be going saturday too:)
Let us know if you do go saturday,i wont be leaving early to rush to get there.Aim to be there for 11 ish. Could drive up together.Is Dave going??
Pete you show queen :p
wish mine was bloody fixed would have liked to have done every show this year myself. the joy of owning rotaries eh!! :bandit Its not the same turning up in the super fly pug, although it is rather super fly :wave
Quote from: pete sparrowLet us know if you do go saturday,i wont be leaving early to rush to get there.Aim to be there for 11 ish. Could drive up together.Is Dave going??
Not sure if you mean me?
But I\'m going !! I think a mini convoy is in the offing.....should be nice and sedate just like the last one :rollin
Quote from: G@NDYPete you show queen :p
wish mine was bloody fixed would have liked to have done every show this year myself. the joy of owning rotaries eh!! :bandit Its not the same turning up in the super fly pug, although it is rather super fly :wave
Hi Andy
Whats wrong with your baby now? Thought you had her running sweet at RS3? Your pug is special no doubt!! :god
Quote from: Red and SingleNot sure if you mean me?
But I\'m going !! I think a mini convoy is in the offing.....should be nice and sedate just like the last one :rollin
Hi Dave
Yes meant you,good idea on the mini convoy,might only be 3 cars,see if we can drum up some more interest! :yes :Thumbs-up
i think im there sat too lads so pete give me a bell some time.
davey boy what you fancy? sat, sun or both. ill be coming back the sat night pick the misses up for the sun
Hi Jon,
Cant get away with sat and sunday , not got enough husband credits to pull that off a fortnight after bieng away for the entire British GP !! :cool
Was planning on the sunday only, fancy dragging your poor missus along again !! :Hammer
You know she\'ll be bored stupid and will end up sat in your car all day?? :rollin
If it\'s a nice day I might even clean the car sunday !! :2eek :2eek
What time you thinking of, arrive 11 ish or crack of dawn, not much point going in the middle as we\'ll end up in a big fat queue.
I\'m happy either way, our kid will have me up at 5am regardless !! :Grrr
Pete, which way will you come to meet up, M5, M6 I presume ?? Could meet up at crawley services ( the one between M42 and M69 jcns) on the M6 ??
Once we agree times, shall we start a new thread and see if anyone else wants to play ??
So we are heading up early saturday morning? What time do the gates open? It doesn\'t say on my tickets. Will be travelling M5 M42 M6,where shall we meet? Dave did you mean corley services?? Good idea on the convoy thread.
Quote from: pete sparrowSo we are heading up early saturday morning? What time do the gates open? It doesn\'t say on my tickets. Will be travelling M5 M42 M6,where shall we meet? Dave did you mean corley services?? Good idea on the convoy thread.
Thats what I meant :Thumbsup!
What time sunday then guys ???
I\'ll be going up on the saturday only,got B&B for saturday night,travelling home sunday.
Happy to meet whoever on the saturday morning though.
ok davey boy bout a 7.30 meet same place as before on the sunday?
im not going to be able to make the saturday pete. :(
Quote from: Mr J.Tim not going to be able to make the saturday pete. :(
Ok mate,see you both sunday. :)
Quote from: Mr J.Tok davey boy bout a 7.30 meet same place as before on the sunday?
im not going to be able to make the saturday pete. :(
07.30 sounds good to me, should be there for 8.30 hopefully beating much of the traffic :burnout
See you sunday (will you have your screamer pipe by then ??) :wave
ohhh yes, having the snip tomorrow or saturday lol
The screamers volume is such that it really is a love and hate relationship I do warn you!!
Have you driven a car with one in ??
Try mine before You decide if you like ?
Been thinking how are you going to blank the hole left in the downpipe when you cut it matey? just weld it
yeah just weld the hole thats left.
thought so!!!!!!!, hope you like it :p ;)
Quote from: G@NDYthought so!!!!!!!, hope you like it :p ;)
Got a screamer on the 205 yet?????????? :Thumbs-up
QuoteGot a screamer on the 205 yet??????????
Its got four, thats how i now they are so loud !!!!!!!!! :eek
Quote from: G@NDYIts got four, thats how i now they are so loud !!!!!!!!! :eek
I\'m thinking of wearing ear defenders on long journey\'s while travelling in my rex,sure she\'s getting louder!!! :Thumbs-up
Cant remember the last time i drove mine, but motorway cruising its as quiet as a feather thats being really quiet. :p no silencer 3 inch from the turbo. Maybe its the fujitsubo backbox, i bought that for the quite factor and maybe it has worked.
maybe you should try driving off boost for a while pete, you power hungry insaniac :Thumbs-up
so whos guna post a clip of the noise.. i so wanna here this :D
Did you ever make the screamer pipe? and did you like it???;)
Quoteso whos guna post a clip of the noise.. i so wanna here this
Here ya go, the sound of a screamer pipe, listen when the cars go WOT... :eek
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/79c5cb64-228b-4853-9fa6-4d7b24762420.htm (http://videos.streetfire.net/video/79c5cb64-228b-4853-9fa6-4d7b24762420.htm)
Just to add, I had a screamer in Germany-good response and clean power. On returning to the UK i thought it would be responsible to plum it back into the system. On doing this, there is a definate difference in the way the engine performs. Turbo response is slightly better, but is strangled in mid to top end. Also experianced slight boost creep. Suffice to say, i had to change my mapping slightly and i have now gone back to the screamer.
John
Quote from: G@NDYmaybe you should try driving off boost for a while pete, you power hungry insaniac :Thumbs-up
Drive off boost?!?!?!?! Were\'s the fun in that!!!!:Laugh
still not got it done yet. other things came first
mr pete. long time no hear. hows things bud?
Quote from: Mr J.Tstill not got it done yet. other things came first
mr pete. long time no hear. hows things bud?
Hello mate,i\'m fine thanks,you?? :) Got electrical problems with my rex,apart from that all is well:) how\'s yours running now?? Stay out of the lightening..
Quote from: pete sparrowHello mate,i\'m fine thanks,you?? :) Got electrical problems with my rex,apart from that all is well:) how\'s yours running now?? Stay out of the lightening..
yeah i am lol
yeah running sweet as a nut. pullin really hard the meths makes a difference added to the re-map.
whats up with yours atm then/.
Quote from: Mr J.Tyeah i am lol
yeah running sweet as a nut. pullin really hard the meths makes a difference added to the re-map.
whats up with yours atm then/.
Glad yours is running sweet. Meths??? Tell me more please???
Had a burnout behind the instruments.Had a look,loads of new connections,twisted wires covered in insulating tape.The hot weather unstuck the tape,and made some wires short out.Who ever did the wiring didn\'t use proper connecters:2Rolleyes Now got to find a replacement board or repair the old one:( Got next week off,so i\'ll make some calls and get her booked in somewhere.
Quote from: pete sparrowGlad yours is running sweet. Meths??? Tell me more please???
Had a burnout behind the instruments.Had a look,loads of new connections,twisted wires covered in insulating tape.The hot weather unstuck the tape,and made some wires short out.Who ever did the wiring didn\'t use proper connecters:2Rolleyes Now got to find a replacement board or repair the old one:( Got next week off,so i\'ll make some calls and get her booked in somewhere.
not good. car still fires ok? just no way of seeing speed etc etc?
meths/water = more boost :) youll see my friend youll see
Quote from: Mr J.Tnot good. car still fires ok? just no way of seeing speed etc etc?
meths/water = more boost :) youll see my friend youll see
Car runs fine:) Just no dials:( Will pull marks dash apart and have a look,see what differs. Must go and have a word with RE:Worx and have a word:Laugh