Mazda Rotary Club

I thought this would be of interest as It\'s probably the question I get asked the most. Shame the answer isn\'t simple though!

The basic benefits are as follows:

Extended oil drain periods
Better wear protection and therefore extended engine life
Most synthetics give better MPG
They flow better when cold and are more thermally stable when hot
Esters are surface-active meaning a thin layer of oil on the surfaces at all times

If you want to know the reasons why then please read on but, warning - Long Post!

Stable Basestocks

Synthetic oils are designed from pure, uniform synthetic basestocks, they contain no contaminants or unstable molecules which are prone to thermal and oxidative break down.

Because of their uniform molecular structure, synthetic lubricants operate with less internal and external friction than petroleum oils which have a non-uniform molecular structure.

The result is better heat control, and less heat means less stress to the lubricant.

Higher Percentage of Basestock

Synthetic oils contain a higher percentage of lubricant basestock than petroleum oils do.

This is because multi-viscosity oils need a great deal of pour point depressant and viscosity improvers to operate as a multigrade.
The basestocks actually do most of the lubricating. More basestocks mean a longer oil life.

Additives Used Up More Slowly

Petroleum basestocks are much more prone to oxidation than synthetic oils. Oxidation inhibitors are needed in greater quantities in petroleum oils as they are used up more quickly.

Synthetic oils do oxidize, but at a much slower rate therefore, oxidation inhibiting additives are used up more slowly.

Synthetic oils provide for better ring seal than petroleum oils do. This minimizes blow-by and reduces contamination by combustion by-products. As a result, corrosion inhibiting additives have less work to do and will last much longer in a synthetic oil.

Excellent Heat Tolerance

Synthetics are simply more tolerant to extreme heat than petroleum oils are. When heat builds up within an engine, petroleum oils quickly begin to burn off. They are more volatile. The lighter molecules within petroleum oils turn to gas and what\'s left are the large molecules that are harder to pump.

Synthetics have far more resistance as they are more thermally stable to begin with and can take higher temperatures for longer periods without losing viscosity.

Heat Reduction

One of the major factors affecting engine life is component wear and/or failure, which is often the result of high temperature operation. The uniformly smooth molecular structure of synthetic oils gives them a much lower coefficient friction (they slip more easily over one another causing less friction) than petroleum oils.

Less friction means less heat and heat is a major contributor to engine component wear and failure, synthetic oils significantly reduce these two detrimental effects.

Since each molecule in a synthetic oil is of uniform size, each is equally likely to touch a component surface at any given time, thus moving a certain amount of heat into the oil stream and away from the component. This makes synthetic oils far superior heat transfer agents than conventional petroleum oils.

Greater Film Strength

Petroleum motor oils have very low film strength in comparison to synthetics. The film strength of a lubricant refers to it\'s ability to maintain a film of lubricant between two objects when extreme pressure and heat are applied.

Synthetic oils will typically have a film strength of 5 to 10 times higher than petroleum oils of comparable viscosity.

Even though heavier weight oils typically have higher film strength than lighter weight oils, an sae 30 or 40 synthetic will typically have a higher film strength than an sae 50 or sae 60 petroleum oil.

A lighter grade synthetic can still maintain proper lubricity and reduce the chance of metal to metal contact. This means that you can use oils that provide far better fuel efficiency and cold weather protection without sacrificing engine protection under high temperature, high load conditions. Obviously, this is a big plus, because you can greatly reduce both cold temperature start-up wear and high temperature/high load engine wear using a low viscosity oil.

Engine Deposit Reduction

Petroleum oils tend to leave sludge, varnish and deposits behind after thermal and oxidative break down. They\'re better than they used to be, but it still occurs.

Deposit build-up leads to a significant reduction in engine performance and engine life as well as increasing the chance of costly repairs.
Synthetic oils have far superior thermal and oxidative stability and they leave engines virtually varnish, deposit and sludge-free.

Better Cold Temperature Fluidity

Synthetic oils do not contain the paraffins or other waxes which dramatically thicken petroleum oils during cold weather. As a result, they tend to flow much better during cold temperature starts and begin lubricating an engine almost immediately. This leads to significant engine wear reduction, and, therefore, longer engine life.

Improved Fuel Economy

Because of their uniform molecular structure, synthetic oils are tremendous friction reducers. Less friction leads to increased fuel economy and improved engine performance.

This means that more energy released from the combustion process can be transferred directly to the wheels due to the lower friction. Acceleration is more responsive and more powerful, using less fuel in the process.

In a petroleum oil, lighter molecules tend to boil off easily, leaving behind much heavier molecules which are difficult to pump. The engine loses more energy pumping these heavy molecules than if it were pumping lighter ones.

Synthetics are better and in many ways, they are basically better by design as they are created by chemists in laboratories for a specific purpose.

Cheers
Simon

Thats a good read! Opened my eyes!!!

What Synthetic oil wud u advise to use?

5w-40, the best are the likes of the Motul 300v and the Silkolene Pro S.

Cheers

Simon.

Great post, very informative.  I\'m running fully a synthetic oil in my Rex after reading one of your previous posts on true synthetic oils.  Thanks for the info.  :Thumbsup!

Just been looking at your site, mainly the Motul area as I\'ve used their 5.1 brake fluid and found it to be excellent.  What gear oils would you recommend for a 3rd Gen RX-7?

I\'ve also been looking at the \'Inugel Optimal\'.  Am I understanding this correctly that you use this in your radiator instead of water and anti-freeze?  Would it be fine to use in a 3rd gen?

Jake,

I use Sylkeline Syn 5 in both my gearbox and diff (on Oilman\'s recommendation). I have extremely happy with it in both the RX and the MX5.

Alex.

I hear what you are saying, almost persuaded me but....

I hear a lot of people talking about the fact the RX is designed to burn oil (similar to a 2 stroke?)  but synthetic oil by design will leave a desposit when burnt - which is bad in a rotary engine?  Bad to have deposits in the chamber? (ive heard Royal Purple doesnt but the cost of that over a few years would amount to a rebuild!! ;) )  Im not knowledgable in this subject, this is just what ive heard mentioned so cant say it is accurate, only mentioning it so I can be put right if I am wrong - I would feel better using snthetic particlualry because of the high oil temps I seem to get.  

One thing though:
 
WGT have said my rebuild warranty is void if I use synthetic!

this is interesting ive always been told to use mineral oil i use the same stuff they put in the rx8??

Cheers Smifta, I\'ll have a look at it.

I actually use Royal Purple in my Rex since before Christmas after reading around for ages about oils and the whole synthetic argument.  Oilman did a post about true synthetics a while ago that was brilliant if you haven\'t read it, would be worth doing a search for.

Here we go:

http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10025&highlight=synthetic+oil

I use Mineral aswell

Quote from: \'M@r{\']I hear what you are saying, almost persuaded me but....

I hear a lot of people talking about the fact the RX is designed to burn oil (similar to a 2 stroke?)  but synthetic oil by design will leave a desposit when burnt - which is bad in a rotary engine?  Bad to have deposits in the chamber? (ive heard Royal Purple doesnt but the cost of that over a few years would amount to a rebuild!! ;) )  Im not knowledgable in this subject, this is just what ive heard mentioned so cant say it is accurate, only mentioning it so I can be put right if I am wrong - I would feel better using snthetic particlualry because of the high oil temps I seem to get.  

One thing though:
 
WGT have said my rebuild warranty is void if I use synthetic!

Does the oil actually get burnt, or just vaporised? There is a difference. If you think about the reason why the oil is there in the first place, it is for lubrication of the seals, so the less burnt it gets, the better the lubrication. Perhaps synthetics with their higher temp stability help lubrication in this manner - vaporising rather than burning? I don\'t know - could be wrong!

I know the RP cost is said tounge-in-cheek, but really, an oil change with RP is less than a tank of petrol! It may be twice the cost of a good mineral, but a couple of tenners extra over 3 or 4000miles pales into insignificance compared to the fuel costs!

But lets be honest, who has any real issues with either proper synths or minerals? Has anyone actually ran multiple, identical engines apart from the oil, side by side for 50 or 100k miles, then stripped them down to evaluate differences? Errrr.....don\'t think so! Just carry on using the mineral that Pip recommends to safeguard the warrenty, then when it has expired, re-evaluate the oil at that point in time!

Quote from: LRPthis is interesting ive always been told to use mineral oil i use the same stuff they put in the rx8??

Total Oil supply oil to some of the Mazda dealerships and as we service there trailers i asked them what they use in the RX8. Guesss what its a full synthetic quartz 9000 that Ford also use in the Zetec engine.
Kevin :3gears-rh

Subaru had the same issue as Ford a few years back, swapped to Silkolene and it cured the issue for a little while until they re-designed the part that kept breaking.

The design from the 7 to the 8 may well have improved, but remember the 7 works on OLD oil deisgn!

Fish

Quote from: andrewrx7But lets be honest, who has any real issues with either proper synths or minerals? Has anyone actually ran multiple, identical engines apart from the oil, side by side for 50 or 100k miles, then stripped them down to evaluate differences? Errrr.....don\'t think so! Just carry on using the mineral that Pip recommends to safeguard the warrenty, then when it has expired, re-evaluate the oil at that point in time!

Yes some has done this and they don\'t recommend synthetics!  They\'re called Mazda, and people seem to ignore the vast amount of testing that went on to develop the engine.  Sorry oil man, good sales pitch, but I\'m not sold.....  (And my PHD was in gearbox development, largely focusing on wear and lubrication).

As for the new advice on the RX8, the wear characteristics and carbon adhesion properties of ceramics are vastly different to metals, and therefore the bear little relevance to and RX7.

Regards

Fraser

Quote from: \'M@r{\']I hear what you are saying, almost persuaded me but....

I hear a lot of people talking about the fact the RX is designed to burn oil (similar to a 2 stroke?)  but synthetic oil by design will leave a desposit when burnt - which is bad in a rotary engine?  Bad to have deposits in the chamber? (ive heard Royal Purple doesnt but the cost of that over a few years would amount to a rebuild!! ;) )  Im not knowledgable in this subject, this is just what ive heard mentioned so cant say it is accurate, only mentioning it so I can be put right if I am wrong - I would feel better using snthetic particlualry because of the high oil temps I seem to get.  

One thing though:
 
WGT have said my rebuild warranty is void if I use synthetic!

This is a misconception, synthetic oils in fact burn more cleanly and leave less deposits than their petroleum conterparts.

Cheers
Simon

Quote from: LRPthis is interesting ive always been told to use mineral oil i use the same stuff they put in the rx8??

I use fully synthetic 5w-30 in my own RX8.

40% less oil consumption and the car feels much smoother!

Cheers
Simon

Seals, seals, seals!

It\'s an old argument and bearing in mind that all synthetics are seal compatible these days just not valid.

Rotary engines are used in unmanned spy drones due to their quietness, and yes synthetics have been extensively tested in Rotaries, Silkolene have been doing it for years from the Norton Rotary engined bikes of yester year to supplying Pro R 0w-20 for the current spy drones.

Synthetic burn more cleanly, tolerate heat better and evaporate less easily that\'s why they last longer.

In my honest opinion, anyone running a modded RX7 would have to be mad to use anything else if they want to protect their engine properly.

It is my opinion that part of the reason for short engine life is oil quality, poor basic oil quality in a car that really requires something better. Sure, in stock form an N/A RX7 may not test a mineral oil if changed frequently but once you add a turbocharger you are talking a whole new ball game. You NEED an oil that will withstand heat better than a mineral oil to prevent carbonisation.

Cheers
Simon

Quote from: oilmanSeals, seals, seals!

It\'s an old argument and bearing in mind that all synthetics are seal compatible these days just not valid.

Rotary engines are used in unmanned spy drones due to their quietness, and yes synthetics have been extensively tested in Rotaries, Silkolene have been doing it for years from the Norton Rotary engined bikes of yester year to supplying Pro R 0w-20 for the current spy drones.

Synthetic burn more cleanly, tolerate heat better and evaporate less easily that\'s why they last longer.

In my honest opinion, anyone running a modded RX7 would have to be mad to use anything else if they want to protect their engine properly.

It is my opinion that part of the reason for short engine life is oil quality, poor basic oil quality in a car that really requires something better. Sure, in stock form an N/A RX7 may not test a mineral oil if changed frequently but once you add a turbocharger you are talking a whole new ball game. You NEED an oil that will withstand heat better than a mineral oil to prevent carbonisation.

Cheers
Simon

Got to say i agree 100% with this hence why i use synthetics but to be honest Simon i don\'t think there\'s much chance of getting many people to change there views. All i would say is that if they had seen a couple of engines stripped down be it petrol diesel piston or rotary side by side one run on mineral and one on synthetic\'s or even semi synthetic\'s then there would be a lot more converts.
Regards Kevin

I\'m not looking for converts, in fact I supply all oils from monogrades to race synthetics, I\'m merely looking to explode a ridiculous myth that seems to have stayed with the rotary since the seals were not compatible some 25 plus years ago.

If the MRC would arrange a suitable venue and enough Members, I would be happy to bring along the man that knows about synthetics and rotaries (the Silkolene Chemist John Rowland) to give a talk on why they are better for your cars.

Cheers
Simon

Simon do you think he would be willing to do a little piece for the rotary rev\'s news letter as i know Clive is always looking for items to include and something like this would be for the benefit of all rotary owners. Might be worth dropping Clive a PM if he would.
Kevin

I think your right about the seeing is believeing.

I do fully believe that certain synthetics will not only be fine but also benefit the engine, but you will also get some people who pay £17 per 5 liters mineral (castrol) or £55 ish for synthetic.

The best thing is to provide the info and let them make their choice, I do certainly enjoy reading this, I don\'t understand it all but im getting there  :driving

Quote from: Ricco_04I think your right about the seeing is believeing.

I do fully believe that certain synthetics will not only be fine but also benefit the engine, but you will also get some people who pay £17 per 5 liters mineral (castrol) or £55 ish for synthetic.

The best thing is to provide the info and let them make their choice, I do certainly enjoy reading this, I don\'t understand it all but im getting there  :driving

If you look around you can get full synthetics for less than that or go half way house and use a semi synthetic. But don\'t forget when doing the sums you can also safely extend your drain intervals.
Kevin

Quote from: kev-yorksSimon do you think he would be willing to do a little piece for the rotary rev\'s news letter as i know Clive is always looking for items to include and something like this would be for the benefit of all rotary owners. Might be worth dropping Clive a PM if he would.
Kevin

Yes please, and  if this guy is really Rotary knowledgeable could we have recommendations for new and old normally aspirated plus Turbo Rotary\'s and also I would love to know for definite if any present day synthetics can break  "tip to chamber wall"  contact and therefore reduce or destroy compression.

When Mazda were racing in the early nineties they apparently had this happen and whilst they would never publicly admit it this is the reason they printed Nonsynthetic oil only in the 3rd Gen owners manual, they also say Use only oil with API Service SG rating and that extra additives are not recommended.

Yes oils have come a long way but to me the oil argument for Rotary longevity is not a huge issue because we tend to loose more engines through water seal failure on stock engines and tip detonation on the modified ones than we ever do due to oil related problems, however when these engines are stripped carbon is the issue most builders are fighting to clear out.
So the question there is does this come from oil deposits or fuel, and I ask because apparently Shell Optimax does help combat the carbon problem.

Even though my company sells not cheap 76 Racing mineral oil I still send people to Asda to buy Texaco or Castrol at a fiver a gallon if they only have a stock car .

BTW as for the friction side of things and the way oil adheres to metal surfaces, I witnessed this myself many years ago.
I was asked to look at an old transit that was driven home with the oil light on and had a bad rumble!, I was straight away told by the owner who had no money for a new engine that he had always put Slick 50 in the engine and sure enough even though there was NO oil in the sump I literally pealed the badly worn big end and main bearings off the crankshaft and finding that there was still a good film of Slick50 then fitted new bearings  without removing the crank and the owner then used the Transit for the next couple of years.

I understand fully that less friction equals more power, more economy and a lot less wear but as I say, the one question I really want answered is does synthetic interfere with "tip to chamber wall" contact, by someone who knows Rotary\'s fully i.e. Mazda, and not just people singing from sales sheets that are written due to oil development via pistion engines !!!.

I still feel that Mazda are by far the best people to answer this question especially as they are still developing the Rotary right now and didn\'t stop developing it years ago as has been ludicrously suggested on this thread.

Well I\'m about to pull and strip my engine that\'s done 5000 miles on Optimax and Royal Purple (apart from mineral oil when running in). I\'ll happily post pictures before I clean anything up (if I need to clean anything up that is!).

Steve

Quote from: efinisteWell I\'m about to pull and strip my engine that\'s done 5000 miles on Optimax and Royal Purple (apart from mineral oil when running in). I\'ll happily post pictures before I clean anything up (if I need to clean anything up that is!).

Steve

Hi Steve,

Sorry to hear that your engine has died so quick ( what of?)

Whilst its a great offer you have made and I would be interested to see the results I\'m not sure 5,000 is enough to build up any appreciable carbon "goo"

O\'yes I meant to put this story in last night ( just to bore you all some more)

The most graphic story I ever heard explaining not only frictional loses in an engine surrounding oil and what it actually does was when an Indianapolis Racer using the at the time dominant Turbocharged Offenhauser engine stripped the engine and expensively converted the crankshaft to accept roller bearings in place of the plain white metal bearings looking for an advantage over his fellow racers.

When the next Indy 500 arrived he was surprised to find his lap times were the same and that he had the same power as last year.

The reason was that he failed to understand that with the engine running and the oil pressure up the crankshaft actually "floats" completely on a film of oil between the two surfaces.

Hi Clive, engine died of stupidity. I got a bit giddy with the boost on a cold night and cracked a tip. I\'m looking at it as an excuse to go single (although if my wife finds out how much I\'m about to spend that could be in more ways than one!).

I realise that there won\'t be much buildup but I\'ll post pics anyway. I\'ve got befores as well from last time I rebuilt it (the build, not the strip down) so I should be able to check exactly how much build up there is, if any.

I don\'t wish to pee on anyones bonfire but I did start this thread.

RP is not the only oil in the world chaps, good maybe but there are plenty of other decent synthetics that are as good if not better in some cases.

I\'ve been on this forum for a while now and yes I SELL OILS!

There are some very decent European Synthetics that Chemically are a match or better than RP, I have the analysis and comparisons of the quality (I have had them tested including RP) so don\'t think that you don\'t have a choice.

We use the Silkolene Pro S 5w-40 in the Dragon car because of its quality and use Motul 300V 5w-40 and 10w-40 in many highly modified RX7\'s 450bhp plus.

You don\'t have to pay £50 for 5L of oil when the likes of Silkolene and Motul are a little over £40 for 5L, expensive compared to GTX I know but they are not the same thing. One is boggo standard mineral oil and the other is ester/pao synthetic (manmade) not dug out of the ground!

Cheers
Simon

I\'m also happy to do a group buy on Silkolene Pro S 5w-40 (the same as Dragon use) and would require 10 orders minimum to cut a good deal for MRC.

Could also consider a deal on Motul 300V or 8100.

You\'ll find all of these oils in the Members Section of my website and others.

See plenty of offers here!

Cheers
Simon
http://www.opieoils.co.uk

Quote from: oilmanI don\'t wish to pee on anyones bonfire but I did start this thread.

RP is not the only oil in the world chaps, good maybe but there are plenty of other decent synthetics that are as good if not better in some cases.

I\'ve been on this forum for a while now and yes I SELL OILS!

There are some very decent European Synthetics that Chemically are a match or better than RP, I have the analysis and comparisons of the quality (I have had them tested including RP) so don\'t think that you don\'t have a choice.

We use the Silkolene Pro S 5w-40 in the Dragon car because of its quality and use Motul 300V 5w-40 and 10w-40 in many highly modified RX7\'s 450bhp plus.

You don\'t have to pay £50 for 5L of oil when the likes of Silkolene and Motul are a little over £40 for 5L, expensive compared to GTX I know but they are not the same thing. One is boggo standard mineral oil and the other is ester/pao synthetic (manmade) not dug out of the ground!

Cheers
Simon

To Be fair to Simon who quite rightly has pointed out that he started this thread that has now been hijacked by another Vendor and brand which does not seem very ethical, I now think the fairest thing to do is split the thread rather than watch two Vendors doing a my Dads bigger than your Dad.
Please go to the new thread called Royal Purple Oil to find the "other posts" removed from this thread.

Thankyou Clive, I wanted to resist the "my oils better than yours" stuff and stick to the whole point of the thread.

Getting back on track, I have put some questions to the Silkolene Chemist (the man who developed the oil for the Rotary engines in the spy drones) to which I hope to have answers soon which I will post here of course unabridged.

Your comments and questions are noted.

I have also requested of Silkolene whether they would be prepared to host a day at their plant in Stoke-on-Trent for MRC Members to learn about oil and put their questions to the man that knows!

If they agree (it may be limited numbers) it would be most interesting for those particularly with modded cars to learn why mineral oils are often not up to the job and can cause more harm than good in a stressed engine.

All I would say to those who are doubtfull of the benefits is it\'s your car and your money not mine and therefore I totally respect peoples personal choice of oil, if I am asked for advice I will give it and based on facts not fiction.

As I have said before, I use synthetics (good proper ones) in my rotary, would not dream of putting cheap oil in it. I love my car too much!

Cheers
Simon

Hi Simon
You did start the post, and for posting I apologise.
Regards
Gary

No problems mate, no offence taken

Cheers
Simon

Quote from: oilmanI don\'t wish to pee on anyones bonfire but I did start this thread.

RP is not the only oil in the world chaps, good maybe but there are plenty of other decent synthetics that are as good if not better in some cases.

I\'ve been on this forum for a while now and yes I SELL OILS!

There are some very decent European Synthetics that Chemically are a match or better than RP, I have the analysis and comparisons of the quality (I have had them tested including RP) so don\'t think that you don\'t have a choice.

We use the Silkolene Pro S 5w-40 in the Dragon car because of its quality and use Motul 300V 5w-40 and 10w-40 in many highly modified RX7\'s 450bhp plus.

You don\'t have to pay £50 for 5L of oil when the likes of Silkolene and Motul are a little over £40 for 5L, expensive compared to GTX I know but they are not the same thing. One is boggo standard mineral oil and the other is ester/pao synthetic (manmade) not dug out of the ground!

Cheers
Simon

Not wanting to start a whole \'my oils better then yours\' debate but I\'d be really interested to see an analysis of different oils possibly accompanied by descriptions of what each figure means in real terms.  There is so much talked about oils it\'d be nice to see some data as I find this whole debate really interesting, especially given how important oil is to an engine.

QuoteJAKE There is so much talked about oils it\'d be nice to see some data as I find this whole debate really interesting, especially given how important oil is to an engine.

Me too Jake, even after all this i\'m still hesitant to change from mineral, (i used Mobile 1 in my Scorpio,) while i can understand that in the crank-case, lubricating bearings e shaft etc, oil is oil! (and the better quality the better protection) and i can understand that synthetic may well better withstand the high temperatures in a Rotary, i seem to have it deeply entrenched in my mind (don\'t know where that came from!) that the synthetic does not burn (as in clean no sticky deposits burn!) so well when used for lubrication in housings and Apex seals, i am even concerned that if it does not burn so well, it may foul up the plugs! perhaps i should wait for even more info before changing to synthetic, but try a synthetic premix and see how it goes from there. Bit more convincing needed for me.
cheers Bob

I put Clive\'s question to the man in the know John Rowland (Silkolene\'s Chemist for more than 40 years) and he has given this reply which I am posting in full.

He has also agreed to write an article regarding synthetics in rotaries for both the Forum and the Club Magaizine (in more detail) although don\'t expect it tomorrow as it\'s a lot of work!

Quote: John Rowland (Silkolene Chemist)

Regarding seal tip to chamber wall’ contact, the fact that people feel that there must be actual contact shows that they don’t know what is really happening! It’s no different from piston ring action in normal 4-stroke engines. Except at the top and bottom of the cylinder bore, where the ring is stationary for an instant, the velocity of the ring generates a ‘wedge’ of oil which floats the ring off the bore surface by a few thousandths of a millimetre, preventing metal to metal contact, and reducing wear to virtually zero. (Hydrodynamic lubrication.) That’s why modern 4-stroke motors last so long! In fact, the oil helps the ring to hold compression and prevent blow-by.

In a rotary, if a perfect oil film could be maintained on the chamber walls, seal and chamber wall wear would be negligible and compression actually improved, giving better efficiency and long component life up to or even better than 4-stroke piston standards*. Unfortunately, the severe conditions in a rotary with most of the chamber walls being exposed to hot gas means that this ideal situation never exists, but a top quality synthetic lubricant with superior temperature resistance goes a long way towards achieving this ideal.

*There is a type of rotary compressor, the ‘Hydrovane’ where the compression (up to 9 Bar in some versions) is achieved by running an offset rotor with 6 or 8 sliding seals or vanes in a more or less circular chamber. The whole thing is oil-flooded. The seals are hard cast iron, and the chamber casing is SG iron. All very basic; no fancy materials or hard coatings. These things run for 5000hrs a year for 20 years, all because hydrodynamic lubrication is preventing seal to chamber wall contact………..and they do get hot! Localised temps of 250C at the high compression side.

Unquote: John Rowland (Silkolene Chemist)

Cheers
Simon

To identify the quality of an oil there are figures outside of a normal technical data sheet that are important. The key ones being the HTHS number and the Noack %.

These figures are the best indicator of basestock quality and therefore shear stability of the oil, stay in grade performance for want of a better description.

High-Temperature/High-Shear

This test is a simulation of the shearing effects that would occur within an engine. In fact, it\'s actually designed to simulate motor oil viscosity in operating crankshaft bearings.

Under high stress conditions where shearing can occur, the VI Improvers (polymers) break down. As they do, the viscosity of the oil decreases. This is what the High Temperature/High Shear test checks for.

The HT/HS test is measured in Centipoise (cP) as the Cold Crank Simulator test is. However, in this case, because you\'re hoping for the least loss of viscosity with an increase in heat and stress, you want the cP value to remain high.

Each SAE multi-viscosity grade has a specific lower limit for the HT/HS cP value. If a multi-viscosity oil cannot achieve a cP value above that limit, it cannot be classified under that viscosity grade. For instance, according to the SAE specifications, an oil must achieve an HT/HS cP value of 3.7 or higher in order to be classified at the 15w40 viscosity grade. The thinner the oil the lower the number.

Noack Volatility Test

The NOACK % is also an important number as it tests for the % of evaporation at 250 degC and therefore indicates quality of basestock and strength. This is used to test the oil consumption figures based on evaporation, quality basestock are more thermally stable and therefore have lower evaporation % figures.

Good low viscosity synthetics should be around 5 to 7% the ACEA max allowed to make the A3 rating is 13%. Many oils are formulated to meet this number i.e. pass!

So, the HIGHER the HTHS and the LOWER the NOACK % the better the oil quality in simple terms.

Some oils with good numbers are as follows:

Silkolene PRO S 5w-40
HTHS 4.07
NOACK 6%

Motul 300V 5w-40
HTHS 4.51
NOACK 7%

Motul 300V 10w-40
HTHS 4.19
NOACK 7%

Motul 8100 5w-40
HTHS 3.92
NOACK 8%

Ok, granted that these oils have top quality basestocks and therefore better results in these extreme tests but as an example of other well known synthetic oils that are built to meet the minimum standards, here are some so don\'t be fooled!

ACEA pass for HTHS on 5w-40 and 10w-40 is 2.9 and for NOACK is 13%

These oils all show 2.9 and 13% (the requirement for a pass of ACEA A3 performace rating)

Shell Helix Ultra 5w-40, Valvoline Syn Power 5w-40, Mobil Synt S 5w-40

There are many more but it merely indicates that these oils are built to pass a spec and nothing more. A spec that is intended for stock road cars not modded or highly stressed track cars, there is a difference!

Cheers
Simon

Excellent post, very informative.  I don\'t know if you have it but I\'d be very interested to see the same information on 76 oils, Royal Purple and any others that you have info. on.  I\'d understand if you don\'t want to post this up given that different vendors stock different oils and it might turn the whole thread into a bit of a \'my oils better than yours\' argument but I think it\'d be really helpful to forum users.

I do not have comparable figures for Royal Purple and I have checked their website for HTHS and Noack numbers but to no avail.

The 76 5w-40 (it is a ConocoPhillips oil) has the following numbers HTHS 3.8 Noack 13% I suspect based on these numbers that is a hydrocracked (petroleum based synthetic, not a proper man made one)

I do have chemical analysis from 2005 on a Royal Purple 10w-40 but it would be unfair to post the details here. You can always email me.

Cheers
Simon

Whilst on the subject of that buzzword synthetic, here is something that explains why the word synthetic means absolutely nothing unless you can clarify "what" synthetic you are talking about! Not all is equal in the world of oils, it\'s a minefield but that\'s why I am here - To help!

Quote: John Rowland (Silkolene Chemist)

Costs of synthetics vary considerably. The most expensive are the “Ester” types originally only used in jet engines. These cost 6 to 10 times more than high quality mineral oils.

The cheapest synthetics are not really synthetic at all, from a chemists point of view. These are in fact specially refined light viscosity mineral oils known as “hydrocracked”. These have some advantages over equivalent mineral oils, particularly in lower viscosity motor oils such as 5w-30 or other oils with a low “W” rating such as 5w-50 etc and they cost about 1.5 times more than good quality mineral fractions.

We use several different grades of this base oil, where appropriate. This is the “synthetic” which is always used in cheap oils that are labelled “synthetic”.

Yes it’s a cruel world, you get what you pay for!

Now, you may ask, why are these special mineral oils called “synthetic”?

Well, it was all sorted in a legal battle that took place in the USA about ten years ago. Sound reasons (including evidence from a Nobel Prize winning chemist) were disregarded and the final ruling was that certain mineral bases that had undergone extra chemical treatments could be called “synthetic”.

Needless to say, the marketing executives wet their knickers with pure delight!
They realised that this meant, and still does, that the critical buzz-word “synthetic” could be printed on a can of cheap oil provided that the contents included a few percent of “hydrocracked” mineral oil, at a cost of quite literally a few pence.

So, the chemistry of “synthetics” is complex and so is the politics!

The economics are very simple. If you like the look of a smart well-marketed can with “synthetic” printed on it, fair enough, it will not cost you a lot; and now you know why this is the case.

But, if you drive a high performance car, and you intend to keep it for several years, and maybe do the odd “track day”, then you need a genuine Ester/PAO (Poly Alpha Olefin) synthetic oil.

This oil costs more money to buy, because it costs us a lot of money to make, very simply, you always get what you pay for!

Unquote: John Rowland (Silkolene Chemist)

A veritable minefield thanks to a US Court ruling!

Cheers
Simon

Appreciate the myth explosion and that is why I have got involved, and I fully understand the fact that you need wall lubricant on ANY engine indeed I have worried that if you have too much fuel pumping into a Rotary that you could end up with "bore wash" but will readily admit that I do not know whether with modern synthetics this even actually a problem especially if its not petroleum based oil.

It is going to be a difficult thread and long thread because we will not only end up wanting to know why some synthetic oils are not compatible and not others, if nothing else because of oil seal destruction in Rotary\'s,  but also this will unfortunately lead to MRC needing to know the brands of synthetics that are "useable"

One thing I have keep up my sleeve is the reason that I personally have run with the "just put mineral oil in" to members.

The reason is that it keeps it simple telling members to fit mineral as the last thing as a club that we could have is a recommendation from us to pour any oil be it synthetic or otherwise into their engine knowing that some are not compatible.

As with my previous post I know that there are distinct advantages from using synthetics the, however we will always come back to the "which ones question"

Quote from: oilmanI do have chemical analysis from 2005 on a Royal Purple 10w-40 but it would be unfair to post the details here. You can always email me.

Cheers
Simon

Please post simon, as im sure everyone want to know. Could you not compare the 2005 royal purple 10w-40 Noack Volatility Test and the HT/HS  test results with the 2005 silkolene/motul 10-w40 oils to make it more fair?

Also i wonder if gary has these deep anaylisis results being as he is stocks royal purple products? If so then please post them gary ;)

This is obviously a very technical and complex subject...It would be ideal if the MRC could distill all this technical information down to a simple oil recommendation chart for engines in various states of tune from stock to stonkers :p  I am sure most of the technical jargon, impressive as it sounds, goes over most peoples heads and all they really want to know is \'which oil is going to be best in my engine\'. Cost will also play its part of course. I can forsee that MRC will get into awkward territory if it starts recommending one brand over another, which is a shame from members point of view because we really want to know which oil is best for our cars. I\'m pretty much converted to the idea of synthetic but I still don\'t know which oil to go out and buy as the best compromise between cost and performance.

Quote from: AdriansturgessThis is obviously a very technical and complex subject...It would be ideal if the MRC could distill all this technical information down to a simple oil recommendation chart for engines in various states of tune from stock to stonkers :p

Good idea! Gets my vote...  :Thumbs-up

Ok, to be fair here I can do what you ask but of course can only recommend the oils that I sell!

My recommendation would be as follows:

Highly modified / tracked etc = Silkolene Pro S 5w-40, Motul 300V 5w-40 or 10w-40

Mildly modified / street = Motul 8100 5w-40 or Fuchs Titan Supersyn SL 5w-40

Stock / street = Fully Motul 8100 5w-40 or Fuchs Titan Supersyn SL 5w-40
                    = Semi Silkolene or Fuchs XTR 10w-40 or Motul 6100 10w-40

Personally I would not recommend mineral oils at all even though I sell them.

Suffice to say there is nothing wrong with using the likes of Silkolene Pro S 5w-40 in a stock street car, it may just be overkill but your engine would certainly appreciate a drop of the good stuff. Just don\'t go using the cheap stuff if the engine is highly modified or used on track, it\'s simply not built for the job.

Gear oils, we tend to recommend the Silkolene SYN 5 75w-90 fully synthetic for both gearbox and diff but you could use a semi synthetic the likes of Fuchs Titan Gear 75w-90 or Castrol Syntrax 75w-90 in the box and a dedicated LSD oil (if required) in the diff like Silkolene Boa 90LS or Motul 90PA. Once again, remember modded/track cars put more stress on the box and therefore you will be better using a decent fully synthetic in these cases.

Finally if the car is N/A then it will put less demands on the oil than a turbocharged one in which case you could get away more easily with a semi-synthetic. If turbocharged fully is always a better option.

Cheers
Simon
http://www.opieoils.co.uk

Royal Purple 10w40 has a HTHS of 4.05 cant find NOACK
I have asked RP for these, I\'ll wait and see.
HTHS is mentioned on the pdf from there site.

I said in a very early post on here which Clive removed.

"Like prefered tuners, ones not always better than another, poeple have prefered oils, this will influence what they buy.

Some will stick there heads in the sand and because Mazda used information thats now 25 years old, will say "if it\'s not broke don\'t fix it".

How many guys with RX7\'s will be here in 2 years time, with the constant turnover of cars being sold, those may just say nutts, cheap will do, I wont have it come engine build".

It would be a good idea for a list providing people dont too hung up on whats best, sometimes there is little point putting a RP race oil because its better than RP 10w40 beacuse the car is not used in such a way that it will benefit from it. Same Im sure applies to Silkolene, some of there grade oils far outstrip the quality needed for some cars.

MRC does have to be carefull, Clive is also a vendor who sells 76 Oils, so to a degree has a vested interest in members buying mineral or 76, and has recommended that people who want to save money go to Asda and buy it. I know I wont put oil in my car that I can buy for £2.75 a drum. So cant see that in the clubs interest to recommend.

If a list has to be made, and MRC have to get involved, why not just put a list of oils that MAYBE (cause you will never prove it) wont harm, because it will be a hard job to list and state reasons why.
If MRC keeps out of recommending then it will be down to the vendors to recommend and face the outcome. If Clive wants to act as a vendor and put forward 76 Oils tech in a SHY thread thats cool, each can state there qualities, and let members decide but not to say the club recommends, as its not the club, its the club president and vendor telling all to use mineral.

So what if the HTHS number is .05 better, it will still be good enough.
Sometimes there is too much confusing information.
Its good to read techy posts, and Simon has a wealth of knowledge, cant take away,

I enjoy Simons threads. Just trying to put a balance on it, as Im none technical.

If any of this upsets Simon then please remove, posted as a couple kinda asked about RP. Im not getting in to my oils better than yours.

I as a vendor will never recommend an oil that would wreck your engine. It\'s called reputation and I have a good one plus a wealth of knowledge and technical contacts in the business.

Cheers
Simon

Simon,  i like to run a premix, about 150-1, i use a mineral oil for high revving chain saws made by Sthil, i think after all the information posted on these two threads, Many thanks! i will use synthetic engine oil in future, in my standard engine, what decided it for me was the capability of synthetics to cope with very hot running rotary engines! plus Apex seal lube, & maybe less oil changes,
would you recomend a synthetic premix?
cheers Bob

Quote from: oilmanOk, to be fair here I can do what you ask but of course can only recommend the oils that I sell!

My recommendation would be as follows:

Highly modified / tracked etc = Silkolene Pro S 5w-40, Motul 300V 5w-40 or 10w-40

Mildly modified / street = Motul 8100 5w-40 or Fuchs Titan Supersyn SL 5w-40

Stock / street = Fully Motul 8100 5w-40 or Fuchs Titan Supersyn SL 5w-40
                    = Semi Silkolene or Fuchs XTR 10w-40 or Motul 6100 10w-40

Now we\'re beginning to make some progress - cheers Simon..... :chat

Quote from: rotaryart.uk.comI said in a very early post on here which Clive removed.

"Some will stick there heads in the sand and because Mazda used information thats now 25 years old, will say "if it\'s not broke don\'t fix it".


MRC does have to be carefull, Clive is also a vendor who sells 76 Oils, so to a degree has a vested interest in members buying mineral or 76, and has recommended that people who want to save money go to Asda and buy it. I know I wont put oil in my car that I can buy for £2.75 a drum. So cant see that in the clubs interest to recommend.

If a list has to be made, and MRC have to get involved, why not just put a list of oils that MAYBE (cause you will never prove it) wont harm, because it will be a hard job to list and state reasons why.
If MRC keeps out of recommending then it will be down to the vendors to recommend and face the outcome. If Clive wants to act as a vendor and put forward 76 Oils tech in a SHY thread thats cool, each can state there qualities, and let members decide but not to say the club recommends, as its not the club, its the club president and vendor telling all to use mineral.

If any of this upsets Simon then please remove, posted as a couple kinda asked about RP. Im not getting in to my oils better than yours.

Gary I am staggered there are a few things you are saying here that you of all people should not even need to question.

First of all the slightest implication that I would even consider trying to persuade the members of our club to buy mineral for my own financial gain is quite honestly damn right insulting and you should know better!.

Indeed I find your implications that you are trying to damage myself, my business and the club via your accusations disgusting!

So why have I been telling people to use mineral for all these years long before my company even formed, the reason is that up until now it has been the only sure fire way of NOT confusing members or even worse telling them to go and possibly buy synthetic that could damage their engine when I know as you should some synthetics CAN cause terminal damage through seal failure!.

Even over the last few months I know of a race rotary that has died now more than once due to this type of failure.

You also obviously resent the fact that I keep saying "if it aint broke don\'t fix it" surrounding oils at a time when you are trying so desperately to sell your own RP oil, but unbeknown to you I have spent two hours on the phone today with Mazda technical discussing oil types and myths and facts surrounding the Rotary engine and they whole heartedly support my stance about only telling our members to use mineral oil in their Mazda engines but also have said to say to our members consult your chosen engine builder if the engine is modified on their choice of oils so as not to invalidate a particular engine builders warrantees .

I have found today that The Mazda Corporation official 2006 stance on oil is that the Rotary has so few demands on its oil system that it feels that fully synthetic oil is totally unwarranted and before anyone says the RX-8 uses synthetic it was made clear today that this is only a semi synthetic (mineral based oil) which as we have all found on this thread to be a totally different oil to man made fully synthetic oils.
I did uncover today one interesting fact though that the RX-8 is equipped with all internal seals and gaskets that are compatible with ANY type of synthetic oil on the market.

However inspite of this official line from Mazda I fully welcome the fact that Simon started this thread not to sell oil but as a Rotary enthusiast himself to try and enlighten us all with the benefits of synthetic oils in Rotary\'s particularly with the fact that we have so many highly modified cars within the club.

From day one I pride MRC on being a forward thinking club and if Simon can offer the guidance about oils to further progress the Rotary community that I now believe he can offer after reading this thread, and providing I have a list of synthetics that I can honestly know will not damage a members engine I will willingly drop my safety net of telling people across the board "only use mineral in your Rotary"

Lastly there are two things,

First, NOT ONE OF YOUR POSTS WAS REMOVED BY ANYBODY least of all me as you have stated abve when this thread was split, and secondly I cannot understand why were you unable to honour this mans wishes of keeping away from another Vendors thread even after you apologised to him! and yet you have come back on yet again to hinder this thread with petty accusations toward me and think its O/K by saying "if this upsets Simon please remove!"
__________________

Clive, I don\'t think many, if any, on the forum would question your integrity to be quite honest.

Quote from: AdriansturgessClive, I don\'t think many, if any, on the forum would question your integrity to be quite honest.

i second that!!!!

Eh yea thats kool lads...

I have another question for the Oilman...

What difference if any wud it make using a thicker or thinner oil in a Rotary or Piston engine...??

I know a main problem with a thick oil wud be clogging the oil pump!! But is there any others??

Rotary\'s in particular do not need thick oils but the consquences are as follows:

Lower bhp at the wheels due to oil drag
Poorer fuel consumption again due to drag
More friction, heat and engine wear in the long run

Finally the risk of aeration and cavitation leading to oil pump failure if oil temperatures are not high enough at high revs.

Cheers
Simon

Hi All,

Further to the oil debate Simon sent me this yesterday after a phone call from me a couple of days ago asking him to clarify a few things surrounding the use of synthetics in Rotary\'s.

 I would like to share this information with you all as this is very good info to help us all understand the differences and effects of oil in general.

In particular it is worth noting that this details fully exactly what Semi Synthetic and full Synthetic oil actually is and particular note should be paid to the explanation of "ester" content, and "shear" qualities as these are particularly crucial areas for Rotary\'s.

Cive,
 
Futher to our telecon, here are some facts about oils that you will find very interesting.
 
The most important thing with oil is that it is shear stable (stays in grade when subjected to heat) as this means that the oil film is retained and not thinned causing the potential for metal to metal contact. As I have explained, synthetics do this the best as the basestocks are by design more thermally stable, an absolute essential in a modded or track car.
 
For stock road cars, something of a lesser quality will suffice, it will not give as good protection against wear in the longterm but I would still recommend for those who intend to keep their cars that they look at it as a better quality option.
 
Obviously semi-synthetics are better than straight mineral oils but it is a fact that semi-synthetics ARE NOT in fact synthetics at all, they are in fact MODIFIED MINERAL OILS (more highly refined that\'s all) and therefore will act the same in the rotary as a mineral oil except they can take more heat and generally have a better addative pack and will keep the engine cleaner, they however are NOT synthetic! Mazda cleary do not understand this fact either but then again they build cars, not oil thank god!
 
So to the gory details:
 
Oil bastocks are classified into Groups by API (American Petroleum Institute) and it is important to understand what it all means to comprehend why the word synthetic is so misleading and in fact meaningless unless the type of synthetic is defined.
 
The grouping is 1-5, 5 being the best, "ester" used in Aircraft engines for 50 years due to it\'s thermal stability.
 
Groups 5 and 4 are the only "true" synthetics, not dug out of the ground but man made in laboratories by chemists for the purpose for which they are intended. Petroleum or hydrocracked synthetics (Group 3) are merely highly refined mineral oils but do not have uniform molecules, only manmade Group 4 and 5 synthetics have these for obvious reasons, they are manmade!
 
Basestock categories and descriptions

 

All oils are comprised of basestocks and additives. Basestocks make up the majority of the finished product and represent between 75-95%.

 

Not all basestocks are derived from petroleum, in fact the better quality ones are synthetics made in laboratories by chemists specifically designed for the application for which they are intended.

 

Basestocks are classified in 5 Groups as follows:

 

Group I

 

These are derived from petroleum and are the least refined. These are used in a small amount of automotive oils where the applications are not demanding.

 

Group II

 

These are derived from petroleum and are mainly used in mineral automotive oils. Their performance is acceptable with regards to wear, thermal stability and oxidation stability but not so good at lower temperatures.

 

Group III

 

These are derived from petroleum but are the most refined of the mineral oil basestocks. They are not chemically engineered like synthetics but offer the highest level of performance of all the petroleum basestocks. They are also known as “hydrocracked” or “molecularly modified” basestocks.

They are usually labelled/marketed as synthetic or semi-synthetic oils and make up a very high percentage of the oils retailed today.

 

Group IV

 

These are polyalphaolefins known as PAO and are chemically manufactured rather than being dug out of the ground. These basestocks have excellent stability in both hot and cold temperatures and give superior protection due to their uniform molecules.

 

Group V

 

These special basestocks are also chemically engineered but are not PAO.

The main types used in automotive oils are diesters and polyolesters. Like the group IV basestocks they have uniform molecules and give superior performance and protection over petroleum basestocks. These special stocks are used in all aviation engines due to their stability and durability. Esters are also polar (electro statically attracted to metal surfaces) which has great benefits. They are usually blended with Group IV stocks rather than being used exclusively.

 

It is common practice for oil companies to blend different basestocks to achieve a certain specification, performance or cost. The blending of group IV and V produces lubricants with the best overall performance which cannot be matched by any of the petroleum basestock groups.  

 
So to expand upon the above, I will now explain what group 3, 4 and 5 are all about:
 
Group 3 = Hydrocracked synthetic, molecularly converted mineral oil.
 
“HYDROCRACKED” (HC) or MOLECULARLY CONVERTED (MC) BASESTOCKS

 

There are many petroleum oils available on the market that are so pure and refined, they can now be passed off as synthetics.

 

Petroleum oil basestocks can be put through a super-extreme refining process called

“hydrocracking”. These are extremely high performance petroleum basestocks, but they are not truly synthetic the way that most people understand the term and will not necessarily perform to the same level as a premium synthetic oil like PAO (poly alfa olefins) or Esters.

 

Hydrocracking involves changing the actual structure of many of the oil basestock molecules by breaking and fragmenting different molecular structures into far more stable ones. This results in a basestock which has far better thermal and oxidative stability as well as a better ability to maintain proper viscosity through a wide temperature range - when compared to a typical mineral basestock.

 

SYNTHETIC HYDROCARBONS or POA’s (Poly Alpha Olefins)

 

These are, in effect, very precisely made equivalents to the most desirable mineral oil molecules. As with esters, they work very well at low temperatures, and equally well when the heat is on, if protected by anti-oxidants. The difference is, they are inert, and not polar.

 

PAO’s work best in combination with esters. The esters assist load carrying, reduce friction, and cut down seal drag and wear, whilst the PAO’s act as solvents for the multigrade polymers and a large assortment of special compounds that act as dispersants, detergents, anti-wear and oxidant agents, and foam suppressants. Both are very good at resisting high-temperature evaporation, and the esters in particular will never carbonise in turbo bearings even when provoked by anti-lag systems.

 

Esters

 

All jet engines are lubricated with synthetic esters, and have been for 50 years, but these expensive fluids only started to appear in petrol engine oils about 20 years ago. Thanks to their aviation origins, the types suitable for lubricants work well from â€"50 degC to 200 degC, and they have a useful extra trick.

 

Due to their structure, ester molecules are “polar”; they stick to metal surfaces using electrostatic forces. This means that a protective layer is there at all times, even during that crucial start-up period. This helps to protect cams, gears, piston rings and valve train components, where lubrication is “boundary” rather than “hydrodynamic”, i.e. a very thin non-pressure fed film has to hold the surface apart. Even crank bearings benefit at starts, stops or when extreme shock loads upset the “hydrodynamic” film.

 
The best oils for a modded or tracked rotary are a combination of Group 4 and 5, the ideal and top quality ones being a blend of around 20% ester and 80% pao, not hydrocracked ones.
 
The likes of Silkolene Pro S and Motul 300V are the best European ones due to their high ester content.
 
These high ester contect oils are not only used in the aviation industry but also in F1 Cars and Superbikes for their superior thermal stability under stressed conditions.
 
So, finally I talked at the beginning about shear stability (the oils stay in grade capability) and many people do not understand that the average mineral 10w-40 will in fact be a 5w-30 after 1000 miles of hard driving (including town, stop/starts etc which is also hard on oil) and more like a 5w-20 after 3000 miles, believe me I\'ve tested them and seen the results!
 
On the otherhand a proper 5w-40 synthetic will still be a 5w-40 after 8000 miles or 10 track hours! and these are the reasons why:
 
Why do oils lose viscosity with use?

 

Viscosity Index Improvers.

 

An oils viscosity will decrease as the engine temperature rises. Viscosity Index Improvers are added to reduce this thinning. They are a key addative in the production of multigrade oils.

 

VI Improvers are heat sensitive long chain, high molecular weight polymers that minimise the viscosity loss of the oil at high temperatures. They work like springs, coiled at low temperatures and uncoiling at high temperatures. This makes the molecules larger (at high temps) which increases internal resistance within the thinning oil. They in effect "fight back" against the viscosity loss in the oil.

 

"Shearing"

 

The long chain molecules in VI Improvers are prone to "shearing" with use which reduces their ability to prevent the oil from losing viscosity. This "shearing" occurs when shear stress ruptures the long chain molecules and converts them to shorter, lower weight molecules. The shorter, lower weight molecules offer less resistance to flow and their ability to maintain viscosity is reduced.

 

This shearing not only reduces the viscosity of the oil but can cause piston ring sticking (due to deposits), increased oil consumption and increased engine wear.

 

Like basestock quality, VI Improvers also vary in quality. As with many items the more you pay, the better the finished article and more expensive, usually synthetic oils are likely to incorporate better VI improvers. All other things being equal the less VI improver an oil contains, the better it will stay in grade by resisting viscosity loss.  

 

Which oils require more VI Improvers?

 

There are two scenarios where large amounts of these polymers are required as a rule.

 

Firstly in "wide viscosity span" multigrades. By this I mean that the difference between the lower "W" number and the higher number is large for example 5w-50 (diff 45) and 10w-60 (diff 50) are what is termed as "wide viscosity span" oils.

 

Narrow viscosity oils like 0w-30 (diff 30) or 5w-40 (diff 35) require far less VI Improvers and therefore are less prone to "shearing".

 

Secondly, mineral and hydrocracked (petroleum synthetic oils) require more VI Improvers than proper PAO/Ester (Group IV or V) synthetic oils as they have a higher inherent VI to begin with, this is due to differences in the molecular structure of the synthetic base oils compared to mineral oils.

 

It is a fact that many synthetics require significantly less VI Improver to work as a multigrade and are therefore less prone to viscosty loss by shearing.

 



Finally, I use a Fully Synthetic in my RX8 (Motul 8100 5w-30). It improves my fuel consumption by 10% and decreases my oil consumption by 40%. The car is more responsive and there are far less of those annoying deposits on my exhaust................because synthetic DO burn more cleanly leaving less deposits!

 

Hope this helps,

 

Regards

Simon Barnard

Partner

Opie Oils

Very supprised that there are no questions relating to the above  :2Rolleyes

I haven\'t sat down with a cocoa and read it all through yet!

It may be comprehensive enough, there are too many myths and old wives tales surrounding oil. Hopefully this explodes the myth rather than creates more confusion.

If there are any questions than I would be happy to address them or call me personally if that\'s what you prefer or PM me.

Cheers
Simon

Brilliant, got that, thankyou for taking the time to give us such a comprehensive detailed technical explanation. will be in touch shortly with my order,
Bob

Simon is there a database or website we can access that lists all the uk oils giving there types and contents?
Kevin

Afraid not Kev although I have a lot of data of my own due to chemical testing of many companies oils.

Now you have the info, ask the oil company yourself if you wish but 90% will duck the question or give a wooly answer, testing is the only sure way to find out.

If you are asking, by all means try me first because I may have the data but make sure you ask which API Group basestocks are used and do not accept answers like our oils only contain synthetic basestocks as there are real ones and petroleum ones!

If I can be of help please ask.

Cheers
Simon

PS. Wish I had started this debate 12 months ago but no one here seemed interested in knowing about the subject.

Could i ask again about thoughts on a synthetic Premix please,
Thanks Bob

I\'ve been using Total Quartz 9000 for a while now and would be intrested to see how this stacks up. Its only a lube oil though as i\'m running millers KB2T(castor/synthetic blend) as a premix.
 Thanks for the great thread as you finally seem to have people wondering if they should stick with minerals or embracing the newer oils.
Regards Kevin

Quote from: ro284Could i ask again about thoughts on a synthetic Premix please,
Thanks Bob

I think I replied to you by email but in essence you could use a decent synthetic bike premix however I would recommend that you just use a decent synthetic oil in the first place and drop the expense of a synthetic premix.

Cheers
Simon

Quote from: kev-yorksI\'ve been using Total Quartz 9000 for a while now and would be intrested to see how this stacks up. Its only a lube oil though as i\'m running millers KB2T(castor/synthetic blend) as a premix.
 Thanks for the great thread as you finally seem to have people wondering if they should stick with minerals or embracing the newer oils.
Regards Kevin

I used to sell this stuff, it\'s in fact of the hydrocracked (mineral modified) variety. If you\'re looking for something that\'s top drawer, there is much better out there TBH. Still better than GTX though!

Cheers
Simon

Simple question (I hope).....If you swap from mineral to a fully synthetic oil is it enough to just drain out the mineral and then fill up with the synthetic as obviously you will get a certain amount of contamination from the mineral oil that remains in the engine. Any advice????

Yep just drain and refill, the new synthetic will clean out all the old mineral over the follwing service period.

Cheers

Simon.

It\'s a very interesting read, but i\'m still not 100% convinced about using a synthetic oil in my rotary. Just a couple of questions Simon.

1. The standard oil control rings deterioate with synthetic oils meaning these will leak unless you change them when rebuilding your engine.
2. The oil deposits that build up in the chambers from the oil metering jets. My understanding is that synthetics will not always burn and leave oil deposits.

It\'d be good if someone had the time to test out what happens to a tuned rotary when running synthetic oils. i.e. run it for 6 months then take it apart and see what\'s happening to the internals.

I wanna use a better oil but i\'m worried about the above side affects. The plus sides of synthetics would be the shear stability which is needed as our engines run extremly hot and all of our expensive single turbo\'s will end up destroyed. Plus the wear on the engine bearings!!

I am currently using Castrol GTX 10w 40 (don\'t laugh) but after reading this thread will probably be doing an oil change every 1000 miles!!!

HELP!!! What oil can i use that is better than my current oil but not a fully synthetic, or am i worried about nothing??!!

TBH you are worried about nothing. If you want to consult someone who has used decent synthetics like Silkolene Pro S in their rotary, talk to the likes of Ross Juniper at Dragon.

As I have said before, on a non-stock car you\'re mad if you don\'t!

Cheers
Simon

Simon, My oil injection is disabled, so I premix at 100/1 using Shell synthentic premix oil.

Would you say there is still a need/advantage to using fully synth engine oil, as I\'m using Castrol 10/40 at the mo, which I feel uncomfortable with!

In short yes, use synthetic if the car is not stock!

Cheers
Simon

Quote from: TrevrxSimon, My oil injection is disabled, so I premix at 100/1 using Shell synthentic premix oil.

Would you say there is still a need/advantage to using fully synth engine oil, as I\'m using Castrol 10/40 at the mo, which I feel uncomfortable with!

I am in the same position...I too have my OMP blocked off and hence run premix at a similar ratio using \'Shell Advanced Racing M\'...a castor/synthetic blend 2/4 stroke oil.

Im all for using fully synthetic in my engine as it is moderately modded and i believe that it would benefit greatly from synthetic oil, however the ONLY thing holding me back is the effect synthetic oil is suposed to have on the Oil seals...i have just had a fresh rebuilt with all Mazda OEM oil seals etc...and im not wanting to sabotage them by using synthetic oil...if that is indeed the case???

If i can be convinced that this is purely a myth, and the use of synthetic oil will not reduce or harm my oil seals then i\'d change to synthetic in a second...However all this talk has got to have sum sort of substantial origin doesnt it?

Modern synthetics do not eat seals, this is history and has been for 20 odd years.

Believe me or not, it\'s a fact that it will not happen.

Cheers
Simon

Thats it, im sold then...will change to full synthetic in the next 500kms or so.

Great initial post, i dont get on here often, but im glad i stumbled on this today..

cheers.

Quote from: butcherboyI am in the same position...I too have my OMP blocked off and hence run premix at a similar ratio using \'Shell Advanced Racing M\'...a castor/synthetic blend 2/4 stroke oil.

Im all for using fully synthetic in my engine as it is moderately modded and i believe that it would benefit greatly from synthetic oil, however the ONLY thing holding me back is the effect synthetic oil is suposed to have on the Oil seals...i have just had a fresh rebuilt with all Mazda OEM oil seals etc...and im not wanting to sabotage them by using synthetic oil...if that is indeed the case???

If i can be convinced that this is purely a myth, and the use of synthetic oil will not reduce or harm my oil seals then i\'d change to synthetic in a second...However all this talk has got to have sum sort of substantial origin doesnt it?

Only use an Ester based fully synthetic, as Simon has eluded to in this thread....

J

duly noted.

Just whilst i have ur attention, what is ur take on Castrol Magnatec in a Premixed rotary??? it is a semi synthetic which has an ester based additive....any good or stay away???

Hi,

\'Castrol\' is a good oil for a RX7?

Thanks

The Edge engine is is not ideal, however the gear, diff and brake fluids from Castrol are all ok.

Cheers

Guy.

HI,

A mineral oil 10w-40 is ideal for a FD3S or a 15w-40??

Thanks

Hi everyone!!!:Thumbs-up
 
I just wanted some advice about a new oil I just discovered... It\'s a 100% Synthetic White Oil called Spheretech!!!
 
The specialists (Oilman... Clive... etc...) will probably know a few things about this Oil... It only comes in 0W40 and I wanted to have Objective thoughts and advices about this oil... Even though I\'m convinced the Motul 300V is one of the best oil to put in my RX7, I would like to know a bit more about this white oil!!!
 
Thanks a lot, guys!!!:wiggle
 
Here is the official link: http://www.spheretech-uk.com/The%20White%20Oil.htm (http://www.spheretech-uk.com/The%20White%20Oil.htm)

Trouble is as i see it is the rotary needs to be able to burn the oil cleanly within the engine, the ceramic particles in this arn\'t going to burn so it follows they will leave a deposit within the engine, which may inturn lead to stuck seals. Unless of course your running premix.
Kevin

Synthetic oils burn far cleaner than mineral oils and in fact leave far less deposits and carbon, just ask someone who uses synthetics like Silkolene Pro S or 300V just how clean their engine is when stripped. It\'s only bog standard cheap mineral oils that leave nasty deposits.

If your RX7 is modded I would recommend nothing else, if it\'s a stock NA then there is no harm with a basic oil but at least use a semi-synthetic as it will be mineral oil based, they all are!

Cheers
Simon

Out of interest, What do you make of the white oil, Simon?

John

Looks interesting but not worth the money when you can buy the likes of Silkolene Pro, Motul 300V, Redline or Castrol Edge for less.

Gimmick really, how about red oil, Pro S 5w-40 or Motul 300V 5w-30 smells of bananas, need I go on?

Cheers
Simon

I do like the Motul 300v\'s banana smell!!


John

what about Valvoline Racing 20W50 my mate uses gallons of the stuff in his Pinto powered rally car (they apparently used to run it in top fuel engines)  so it\'s been what I\'ve run mine on as it is convenient for me and "modern" oils are harder to find in the thick grades.

Quote from: oilmanSynthetic oils burn far cleaner than mineral oils and in fact leave far less deposits and carbon, just ask someone who uses synthetics like Silkolene Pro S or 300V just how clean their engine is when stripped. It\'s only bog standard cheap mineral oils that leave nasty deposits.

Just saw this comment over on Ausrotary from Rice Racing:

I just tore down a 100 000km REW motor that has a perfect tune up in it, always ran synthetic oils (factory OMP) and ran stihl 200:1 premix, the wear is very low and the carbon build up is less than in engines that have done 2000km. There is very very little carbon deposits in the engine be it rotor faces, exhaust ports or secondary intake runners.

Quote from: oilmanLooks interesting but not worth the money when you can buy the likes of Silkolene Pro, Motul 300V, Redline or Castrol Edge for less.
 
Gimmick really, how about red oil, Pro S 5w-40 or Motul 300V 5w-30 smells of bananas, need I go on?
 
Cheers
Simon

Not worth the money...? Ok it\'s a bit more expensive... But technically would it be OK to put in our RX7 and the quality of this white oil seems good doesn\'t it... Surely you must have heard a few things about this oil...
 
Is 0W40 a proble for the engine? Isn\'t it too fluid or is "0" at low temperature OK?
 
I know the other oils are great, I just want to know a bit more about this white oil and see ojective comments about it... Are it\'s chemical properties as good as Motul 300V or Silkolene?:cool  
 
Thanks.

Reading this thread is great news for me - until I read it, I thought I\'d have to have two stocks of oil, one for my DC5 and one for the FD. Now I can use the same Silkolene Pro S 5w40 in both! (Can\'t I Simon!? :3Confused Just to check! :) )

[Well, I can use the same in both once I do an oil change on the FD anyway...]

I would use it without hesitation

Cheers
Simon

The Pro S will be fine in the FD.

Cheers

Guy.

I\'ve been reading the various info on different oils in the rotary and it has made me  ponder, as the rotary engine is basically a two stroke with a total loss oil lube system, would it not be possible to use a two stroke specific oil in the sump? It seems to me that the main place the rotary needs lubing is the apex seals/rotor housing. As 2T oils are specifically designed to be burnt and also to lubricate at high temps then they would be ideal for the RX. Also 2T oils are often used as gearbox lubricants and withstand the high pressures between gear teeth extremely well. As for seal compatibility I can\'t see there being a problem there either. Just a thought? I might add that ,though I don\'t possess a PHD etc, I have tuned two strokes for over 30 years, its probably why I love the rotary engine so much,its just a pity the ****ing things are so expensive-1200 quid for a gasket set, someone is taking the ****! Anyone remember the smell of Castrol R? Mmmmmmm, rotary engines on \'R\', yes please!!!( Before anyone says that R is old hat, an oil test a couple of years ago still rated it one of the top engine lubricants). I would like the experts to comment on the above points also,Clive commented on \'Slick 50\', is it usable in the RX? I saw some impressive tests a few years ago and er, I was impressed!!

There\'s a few of us running castor based oils for premix get yourself to the Squires meet tommorow evening and there\'ll be a couple of us there running it if you need a fix.
Kevin

what about Comma Motorsport 5w50? any good? I\'m just about to use it...

Well, received my shipment of Silkolene Pro-s oil from OPIE oils this week and set about dumping the mineral oil out of the sump. I\'ve only had the car a week and it\'s always had an oil and filter every 1500 miles albeit with mineral oil. I personally wouldn\'t stick mineral oil in my TD xantia, never mind my pride and joy!
 
Before I filled her up with the pro-s I set about flushing as much of the  crap out of the oil system as possible, so I went to Tescos and bought a load of their 10w-40 mineral oil and carried out 5 oil changes until the oil that was draining out looked as clean as when i first put it in. With this done I changed the filter and poured in the pro-s.
 
Since running the car on the pro-s i have noticed a few things...
 
1. It smells better out of the exhaust and not only that if you get a bit close and take a good whiff, it doesn\'t seem to choke you like it did on mineral oil. Hardly scientific and wouldn\'t recomend anybody else try it, but it suggests to me that it\'s running cleaner.
 
2. The car was hesitant on mineral oil and felt a bit lumpy at times...This trait has been completely banished and the car is much smoother all the way to the rev line, with no jerkiness on part throttle or when under load. Quite amazing!:yes
 
Personally i\'ve never known an oil to make such a difference to the running of a car, it\'s certainly never been noticeable on any pistons engines I\'ve ran before.
 
So to summarise, i would highly recomend making the switch, i definitely feel much more confident to use the power and light the turbos up now that I know they are getting the best protection possible and the car just damn well runs alot better on the stuff!!:3gears-rh

Well, received my shipment of Silkolene Pro-s oil from OPIE oils this week and set about dumping the mineral oil out of the sump. I\'ve only had the car a week and it\'s always had an oil and filter every 1500 miles albeit with mineral oil. I personally wouldn\'t stick mineral oil in my TD xantia, never mind my pride and joy!
 
Before I filled her up with the pro-s I set about flushing as much of the crap out of the oil system as possible, so I went to Tescos and bought a load of their 10w-40 mineral oil and carried out 5 oil changes until the oil that was draining out looked as clean as when i first put it in. With this done I changed the filter and poured in the pro-s.
 
Since running the car on the pro-s i have noticed a few things...
 
1. It smells better out of the exhaust and not only that if you get a bit close and take a good whiff, it doesn\'t seem to choke you like it did on mineral oil. Hardly scientific and wouldn\'t recomend anybody else try it, but it suggests to me that it\'s running cleaner.
 
2. The car was hesitant on mineral oil and felt a bit lumpy at times...This trait has been completely banished and the car is much smoother all the way to the rev line, with no jerkiness on part throttle or when under load. Quite amazing!:yes
 
Personally i\'ve never known an oil to make such a difference to the running of a car, it\'s certainly never been noticeable on any pistons engines I\'ve ran before.
 
So to summarise, i would highly recomend making the switch, i definitely feel much more confident to use the power and light the turbos up now that I know they are getting the best protection possible and the car just damn well runs alot better on the stuff!!:3gears-rh

Quote from: kev-yorksThere\'s a few of us running castor based oils for premix get yourself to the Squires meet tommorow evening and there\'ll be a couple of us there running it if you need a fix.
Kevin

Getting any plug fouling? and does it reduce octane significantly like Engine oil?

I run 2 stroke and Engine oil and the only difference is the Motor oil is smokier!

Also, To wade in to the Synthetic debate, Mobil does not recomend normal Mobil One for the Rotary, It recomends the Motorsport version, Which is the same formulation as the original Mobil One.

I used to be a Mobil one fan till they changed formulation , After being on the wrong end of a Spun bearing that stopped pretty quick! Penrite HPR 40 All the way now!

newbie here... just checkin out this great site and i was following this post and thought i\'d put in my 2cents... forever what it\'s worth...
 
well doesnt 2 stroke engines use premixes? aren\'t some of them synthetic/ based? don\'t some of you guys run premixes? those with omp\'s and without? then if synthetic is bad, how come it doesn\'t affect your engine when it\'s added in the fuel? questions,questions,questions... i\'ll never say synths r bad oils... to me they\'re GREAT... but if mr. mazda doesn\'t recommend it then surely it should mean something? i\'ve reasearched and looked at this topic for awhile but... i think i\'ll have grandkids and i\'ll never know... :(

I use fully synth, 0 - 30 for max flow at startup, and good for turbos.
just wonder if petrol dilution makes this oil too thin?

Oh yeah i just want to add i read something on the american forum about a man who had in his life stripped down many many rotary engines and found that those using synth oil had much less wear on average than mineral. To me synth is god, for all the initial posters points and more.
 
Id only reccommend mineral to someone who i would want to wear their engine out prematurely for some reason.

i dont think any one would say synth oils are bad (i myself use a fully synth oil) BUT some of the base chemicals used in the production of these oils can have detrimental effects on differant engine componants such as oil seals, as is explained somewhere in this tread.

matt

hi, been reading some of the pros and cons on synthetic oil and wanted mazdas opinion, my bro is a mazda tech of twenty years and although not a rotary expert got me a service infomation bullitin dated 10/08/06.reads as follows

if synthetic oil is used on a rotary (rx7 or rx8) engine, there is a possibility that carbon deposits may accumilate, which WILL cause some trouble to the engine. it shows a pic of a rotary with a  large amount of sticky carbon around the inlet port stating the following -
if the carbon deposit is accumilated in the combustion chamber it will get to the plug hole and seal resulting in misfire and knocking.
he also threatened to "tw?t me" if he ever found me using any other than recomended oils,  he said that all warranty failures on rx8 go to japan for stripping and if deemed to have been run on semi or full synthetic oil- NO WARRANTY. he seemed to thinks mineral oil was used because it burns off leaving no residue whereas synthetics resists burn so can accumilate and however good would eventually break down leaving the residue and carbon. i am not looking for arguments only to forward what i was told, i will gladly forward a copy of the bullitin to anyone who wants to post it, jon.

It is a debate that will just go on forever, won\'t it! While I am neither for or against synthetic, I personally would like to see more information regarding Mazda\'s comments, to be able to make an informed decision. I find it really frustrating that they have a statement such as the one above, and simply state "synthetic oil". What grade, what make etc etc did they get these results from?? Synthetic oil is such a blanket term it is almost meaningless. Put it into context, it\'s like saying "only put in mineral oil" and leaving it at that. Does that mean then you can go to B&Q and get the £1 for 10litres cheapest stuff and it would be OK? I\'d hazard a guess that it would not! For me, what would make Mazda\'s comments much more credible, is to say which brands they have tested and the results they have got with them. I appreciate they will never test every oil available on the global market, but it would make their statement(s) much more meaningful to know which oils they tested, when they did the testing and then results they got.

has anyone used mobil synt s oil ?????  i can get this cheap but want to make sure its good to use first :D :D

For your information... In Japan, most of the great garages such as RE-Amemiya or R-Magic recommend and use high quality 100% synthetic oil in 10W40... This is the oil they put in their racing track RX7 and in street/road RX7!!!:wiggle
 
So... they don\'t use it for nothing...

Quote from: JapHunter;480965For your information... In Japan, most of the great garages such as RE-Amemiya or R-Magic recommend and use high quality 100% synthetic oil in 10W40... This is the oil they put in their racing track RX7 and in street/road RX7!!!:wiggle
 
So... they don\'t use it for nothing...

I agree!

Also, this is interesting: http://www.mazda.co.jp/service/parts/oil/synthe_renesis.html

A fully synthetic Rotary oil from... Mazda :yes

off topic macer is that your car in your avitar?looks nice any more pics?

i think the race teams will go for synth as they prob have money to burn and longevity isnt such a matter to them. if synth does make carbon build up/ clogged engines  then its no good for us semi poor road users is it? there must be an economic reason to use mineral oils as synth depending on use

Hey fellows...
look at here...
this is what Mazdaspeed sais about oil.
And when you read it, you´ll know why the most racing teams use synth oil.
And you can have a chance deciding what will be the right thing for you!

Here you go:

"1. Synthetic oil is not recommended, unless emissions components and oil injection are removed, and premix fuel is used.

Because the rotary uses oil injection synthetic oil could reduce the life of emission components such as catalytic converters and O2 sensors.

Also, the rotary burns oil to lubricate the the apex seals, and synthetic oil burns at a higher temp than mineral based oil. Repeated short trips may cause synthetic oil build up, leading to spark plug fouling.

Finally, oil sprayed inside the rotor cavities can contact the rotor oil seal O-rings, and oil inside the combustion chamber can contact the housing seal O-rings. Long term exposure to synthetic oil may cause these seals to swell and deteriorate.
"

Unfortunately their site is down at the moment, so I can´t post all...
Luckily I posted in another forum 90% of the text...

The last sentence I know tells something about that you can achieve slightly more hp with synth. oil. But you should only use it only if emissions components and oil injection are removed, and premix fuel is used!!


Hope that helped

Kind regards
Marc

Good infor, What premix oil do you use, im using 2 stroke shell oil at the moment

i use millers kb2t, im told its safe with meth injection as well.

matt

The great oil debate.
A while ago I was selling RP here on MRC and there were lots of debates as to how good it was, and each to his own, as the right oil for my car debate will go on for some while Im sure. Some vendors and members had very strong views on the subject of using a fully syn oil in a rotary.

But when I read threads on MRC about Prolong oils, American hype all too good to be true, it makes me sit up and think.
Every oil has a spec sheet and from that I can pretty much tell what\'s the additive, is this available?
On looking around I have found out that the prolong additives are chloride based and when mixed with moisture which every engine produces, turns in to hydrochloric acid, which loves to eat metal.

Im also waiting on a web site to be emailed over to me, a government site in USA where Prolong have been sued for 20-30 million dollars for false advertising.

So if using this oil, it might be prudent to get the engine replacement guarantees in writing from the seller, as Prolong have either insured against it, hence the high price for a mineral oil with an additive pack or it covers the costs of any law cases here.

I would advise that anybody who decides as Gary has to try and pin the tail on the donkey to try and get their facts correct.

Please see this apology to Prolong below that a magazine has had to print after getting it wrong in Sepember 2008 !

PROLONG â€" AN APOLOGY

In the September 2008 issue, under the title Fuel-Saving Myths & Tips, David Ahl referred directly to the products of Prolong Super Lubricants Inc alongside products produced by the oil-additive companies Slick 50, STP, Zmax, and Duralube. David made specific reference to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) action that took place in 1999, which was levelled at all of the companies mentioned including Prolong. However, we would like to make it clear that, unlike the other companies, Prolong was not fined by the Commission and has since been allowed to continue to market its product as \'The World’s Most Powerful Oil\'.

Prolong has entered into an agreement with the FTC which states that they will not market or advertise that their product offers any kind of benefits without adequate independent scientific evidence to support the statements being available prior to the claims being made. For more information, visit http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/legal/prodecis.html.

Our article also stated that the use of Prolong would have \'virtually no effect on engine efficiency and certainly not on fuel mileage\'. On the contrary, a study performed at the US National Training Facility at Fort Irwin on behalf of the National Automotive Center (NAC) of the US Army Tank, Automotive and Armaments Command (TACOM) states explicitly that \'Test results indicate significant potential reduction in oil and exhaust temperatures and improvement in miles/gallon of fuel\'.

It was also stated that some additives can \'interfere and react with the additives already present in your oil\' and that \'some additives actually have particles that can clog oil passages and clog filters\'. We accept that none of these flaws is present within Prolong’s technology as evidenced by the fact that the product is not actually an additive and that Prolong is a producer of full motors oils, all of which include the same active ingredients that are included in the company\'s engine treatment. All of Prolong\'s motor oils meet the API standards mentioned in the article.
 
We would like to apologise to Prolong Super Lubricants for any misunderstandings that may have been caused by the piece. We would also like to reassure readers that the Prolong technology is patented and unique and that the company produces the only surface modifying oil available for use in internal combustion engines. Prolong remains stable and effective under both high loads and temperatures and provides considerable improved film strength under both extreme pressure and heat, even when compared to synthetic oils.

This is not a complete portrayal of the truth. You\'ve used 10yr old videos to promote this oil and the FTC did rule them illegal with no scientific basis. Just because the claims made by the article have had successful action due to the army tests doesn\'t mean the videos are any more truthful. A quick search on the Federal Trade Commision site brings up a multitude of successful cases brought against prolong oils.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
It looks like the most scientific tests done were actually by General Motors. I can\'t look at the link from work but the excerpt below has a good summarisation. Isn\'t the rotary housing aluminium?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=55412

Deaffy,

Thanks for your response - it got me off my (considerable!) duff and got me back out investigating chlorinated hydrocarbons in lubricants. I didn\'t want to respond until I had something at least semi-intelligent to say.

I agree with you that Prolong is completely worthless - in some situations. Briefly, here\'s why:

The chlorine compounds that make up the lubricant package in Prolong bind themselves most effectively to iron and steel, forming Ferric Chloride (FeCl) compounds. In a "steel-on-steel" situation, these chlorinated hydrocarbons appear to be a very effective friction reducer.

Those same chlorine compounds DO NOT bind well to aluminum, magnesium or other non-ferrous metals.

The tests were conducted by GM using their own engines, which have a high percentage of non-ferrous load bearing surfaces inside them; of course they grenaded early on!

As far as Vanagon engines go, while there is a significant amount of "steel-on-steel" contact (cylinders and rings, which chlorinated hydrocarbons will help), there is also some non-ferrous load contact, (which they will do little or nothing for).

Aside from the fact that chlorinated packages are found in many name-brand lubricants, I partially retract my endorsement of using Prolong in VW engines; I will continue to use it in my vehicles for the sake of the ferrous load contacts, but will caution others in future that it just might be so much cash down the drain.

For a moderately in-depth review of chlorinated hydrocarbons (paraffins, lipids, etc.) in lubricants, go to this link and also take time to read the referenced source materials. This link has zero affiliation with Prolong, is a dispassionate view of the subject, and I think you\'ll find some heavy but accurate info here:

http://www.mpc-home.com/htmls/Chlorine%20and%20Engine%20Oils.htm

Steve

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Is this the original mentioned article?
http://www.thegsresources.com/garage/gs_additive.htm

And more

http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~rblander/snake_oil.txt

As if we needed any more evidence about the bogus claims
of the "Snake Oil" merchants, there\'s an interesting article
in the October 1998 issue of Consumer Report magazine about
an oil additive called "Prolong".  Their nationwide television
ads claim that this oil treatment bonds a 1-molecule-thick
low-friction coating to metal surfaces in the engine resulting
in longer life, better mileage, more savings.  It supposedly
protects the engine even when the oil is drained.  The ads show
Al Unser driving a Dodge Viper on a racetrack in the Mojave Desert
without oil or drain plug, and a testimonial from a woman who
supposedly drove from Santa Barbara to L.A., almost 5 hours,
with no engine oil.

Consumer Report took two factory rebuilt GM 4.3 litre V6 motors,
had them installed into Chevy Caprices, broke them in with regular oil,
changed the oil and filter, added Prolong to one engine, drove another
hundred miles or so to let the stuff take effect, then drained
the oil out.   Both engines failed simultaneously after 5 miles
and about 13 minutes.   The Federal Trade Commission has been notified.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
(and a successful case brought against Prolong oils)

Not trying to pin any donkeys, you has a strong opinion about RP when I advertised it and was very vocal to others about not using it.
I to have an opinion about mineral oils and have the same right to express it, especially as you advertise it all hype and razzmatazz.

Let people make there own minds up, just as I had to allow when you were posting not to use RP.

You thread with the video links I found (and thats only my opinion rather extreme) so I asked the experts as they have better knowledge than i do.

I was pointed to some links by the FTC a government run body in USA so no bias.
This thread shows claims were unsubstantiated
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1999/09/prolong.shtm

there are lots of articles on there about Prolong, I have found at least half dozen, but have not had time to read all of them.

This was a independent test carry out after the video you showed.

"As if we needed any more evidence about the bogus claims
of the "Snake Oil" merchants, there\'s an interesting article
in the October 1998 issue of Consumer Report magazine about
an oil additive called "Prolong".  Their nationwide television
ads claim that this oil treatment bonds a 1-molecule-thick
low-friction coating to metal surfaces in the engine resulting
in longer life, better mileage, more savings.  It supposedly
protects the engine even when the oil is drained.  The ads show
Al Unser driving a Dodge Viper on a racetrack in the Mojave Desert
without oil or drain plug, and a testimonial from a woman who
supposedly drove from Santa Barbara to L.A., almost 5 hours,
with no engine oil.
 
Consumer Report took two factory rebuilt GM 4.3 litre V6 motors,
had them installed into Chevy Caprices, broke them in with regular oil,
changed the oil and filter, added Prolong to one engine, drove another
hundred miles or so to let the stuff take effect, then drained
the oil out.   Both engines failed simultaneously after 5 miles
and about 13 minutes.   The Federal Trade Commission has been notified."

the full article can be found here.
http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~rblander/snake_oil.txt

IF prolong have moved on, then good for them, but the video you show was related to the test done in 1998.

I will let the members make there minds up, and if Im wrong I will unreservedly apologise.

If you have taken the time to read the above now consider this,

MRP are not selling Prolong additive but a complete Motor oil specifically designed for the Rotary.

I would like to think that people will be aware that for me to back something as controversial as putting a "different" type of oil into a Rotary would not be taken lightly.

Long before Prolong Rotary Oil was released onto the market I made it very very clear that they HAD to convince me first of the oils benefits long before I would ever consider selling Prolong through my company after all since I started my apprenticeship with Mazda in 1973 on Rotaries and to this day I have been actively telling "you only put mineral oil in a Rotary, end of !"

Now work it out, this means I have told people for 35 years to use normal Mineral oil in any Rotary!

However one thing had always bothered me and that was with the advent of the Turbo engine it did not seem really right to put "standard" mineral oil through a hot Turbo that demands more than just adequate luberication.

The very first thing I needed to know from Prolong was that, a, this new oil would be a full mineral and that, b, it would contain enough ester content to ensure that oil residue was burnt out of the chamber fully and would not create any harmfull build up that is potentialy very damaging to the Rotary engine.

Over the next few months Prolong not only supplied me with satisfactory answers to all of the many questions I threw at their tech guys but also made me fully aware of Federal court proceedings documents in America that actually worked in their favor and not against them, indeed you will see that I made reference to the Federal Court in my initial advertising post.

http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50995

Two months before the Rotary oil was launched I put this new Oil into the sump of my own 6,000 mile RX-8 as my contention was that if I was not prepared to experience the benefits of this new Oil then I could not and would not expect my customers to do so.

I have now committed my company to selling Prolong Rotary Motor oil with the sound belief that the life of the Rotary will be extended by use of this new engine oil even with out the other benifits that this new Rotary Motor Oil brings.

Quote from: royal;541639This is not a complete portrayal of the truth. You\'ve used 10yr old videos to promote this oil and the FTC did rule them illegal with no scientific basis. Just because the claims made by the article have had successful action due to the army tests doesn\'t mean the videos are any more truthful. A quick search on the Federal Trade Commision site brings up a multitude of successful cases brought against prolong oils.

I would ask how do you know that it is not a portrayal of the truth and that certain quality\'s from the additive are not used today within the new Rotary Oil.

Quote from: g11ary;541640Not trying to pin any donkeys, you has a strong opinion about RP when I advertised it and was very vocal to others about not using it.
I to have an opinion about mineral oils and have the same right to express it, especially as you advertise it all hype and razzmatazz.

Let people make there own minds up, just as I had to allow when you were posting not to use RP.

Sadly this does smack of sour grapes I\'m afraid, however the warning was to be very careful when attacking a company when legalities are involved which was why I have put up the apology letter that a magazine has been forced to print.

I was questioning your advert, and Im allowed to ask questions about the oil if its as good as its supposed to be.

Your original add says you have a lot of research, can I ask what this research was, any independent tests?
You also say you have put in in your 6000 mile RX8, how many miles has it now done and are there any documents showing the results of your testing?
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50995&highlight=mineral+oil

When you 1st posted this oil I had no comments, but your last thread I feel was misleading and although the old is different to the additive, you are selling the oil, using 2 videos of tests done using the additive and tests that were proven to be misleading in  a court of law.
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52553&highlight=mineral+oil

No sour grapes, as I said if Prolong have moved on then great, but you are using misleading advertising.

Maybe trading standards could shed some light.

Hopefully this thread could prove useful with some real research and technical notes, if talks are kept sensible.

I\'m sorry clive but I\'m going to need more than your \'name\' to make me trust that.
Why did you use those videos to advertise the product if you wanted to project a professional image? They are blatently a joke. I wandered if it would be worth using the oil in the drift cars but it only took 5 minutes to find more negative references than lehman brothers accounts books..
Even if prolong had somehow completely changed their tune with the new \'oil\' as opposed to the additive, which doesn\'t seem likely given their history,I can\'t understand why a professional engine builder like yourself would get taken in by those videos?

Apart from your name and time in the industry you still havn\'t answered any of the queries above. What is the difference with the rotary version? Is it the same additive added to a mineral oil instead of a semi? That still doesn\'t change the chloride issues mentioned above.

I have read through a couple of the Prolong web sites,
http://www.prolong.com/
http://www.prolong.co.za/3Automotive%20Tech.htm
And I cant find a mention of there new oil, in there HQ or other countries. Is this oil unique to UK?
I can only find on a UK site
http://www.prolong-uk.com/

Just a couple of questions as I cant find the answers on a Prolong site, your site quotes.

"This unique Motor Oil Specifically meets the needs of the Rotary Engine by offering the following advantages:
Greater than Minerals (what does this mean)? better? what is greater than?
Improves Performance (cool ok)
Reliability & Longevity (cool ok)
Ionic Bonding Completely (cool ok)
Eliminates Dry Starts (cool ok)
Withstands Temps 100°C ( I though all mineral oils will survive up to about 100-110 degrees, but fully synthetics are ok to about 130? thought this had been covered by oilman.
Greater than Synthetics (whats this mean)? "

Your site also says

"Prolong\'s Patented technology utilizes ionic bonding technology to offer extreme pressure protection, which reduces temperatures, slowing burn rate, while also being able to withstand temperatures in excess of 450 degrees." degrees what F or C?

When I used to run an exhaust temp probe it used to run at 1800-1900 degrees as rotaries are very hot, I would have thought that inside temps might be a little higher, hopefully someone that knows may confirm this. So converting 1800 degrees Fahrenheit to Celsius is 982 degrees, and if I do it the other way round 1800 Celsius becomes 3272 Fahrenheit?

Your site also goes on to say
"The only oil to come with a free lifetime engine warranty"

This is not strictly the whole story, the Prolong web site quotes.

"For vehicles under 10 years of age and having no more than 100,000 miles on first engine treatment. Keep with recommended service intervals and add Prolongs Booster Engine Treatment at oil changes (no more than 6000 miles/ 6 months)"

So only RX7\'s that are 1998 will have the warrantee cover, and that\'s only providing they can produce receipts for regular servicing  and can prove they also have bought the engine booster treatment, another additive. It also says 100k miles which most RX7\'s will be very near covering already, so warrantee is quite limited in terms of mileage available to most.
http://www.prolong-uk.com/index.php?action=prod&pid=11100

Say the engine was new, 100,000 miles divide 6000 miles servicing = 16-17 bottles of additive approx cost £254 + delivery.
16-17 bottles of Prolong oil with an additive in it £849 + del.
20 bottles to keep topped up at an average of 1ltr per 1000 miles is another £999. +del
Total cost of using Prolong = £2102.
If the average engine running on mineral does 70k using no additive a cheap mineral it could be done for £ 555 using the same 37 bottles at £15 each or if a dear mineral was used at £25 each it would cost £925
So the extra 30,000 miles would cost between £1177 and £1547 for piece of mind.

Your site says.

"Finally! Rotary Engine Formula Motor Oil with Ionic Bonding Technology specially formulated to meet the needs of the high performance Rotary Engine."

What is unique for the rotary or am I reading it wrong, looks same formula for all cars, so not rotary specific?

More interesting facts, that are ONLY related to the additives your you tube video promotes.
http://www.ftc.gov/os/1999/11/prolong.do.htm

This is interesting, from Prolongs own site, a data sheet.
http://www.prolong.com/images/msds-sdet.pdf

Look at section 5
Note that it has a low Flash Point - 300 F well below combustion temperatures in an engine - particularly a rotary.
Note what is in the decomposition components - oils should not give off hydrogen chloride.....
note also the health / flammability and Reactivity ratings of 1/1/1.  Motor Oils should be 0/1/0.

Look in Section 9
Density is 1.08 meaning it\'s heavier than water which is 1.0 and oils which are 0.9.
The Flashpoint is confirmed again as being less than 150 C.
The viscosity is less than 5 cSt @ 100 C which means it will lower the viscosity of a 5W30 Motor Oil which is typically 9-10 cSt @ 100 C.

Again I say this is only relevant to the additive, and as yet I cant find a data sheet for the oil, perhaps MRP will put one on the forum for us.
BUT this is relevant to the additive that Prolong say you have to add to have a warrantee. (up to 17 bottles of)

I would welcome any of MRP answers or tech data they quote but do not provide
"MRP have put a lot of research into this new oil which IS a mineral oil but with all the capabilities of the very best synthetic oils on the market and not only that the properties of this oil are so good it can be used as an Engine Oil, a Gear Box Oil and a Differential Oil all out of one can indeed this oil has made the claim of being,
THE WORLD’S MOST POWERFUL MOTOR OIL! "

Hi, my name is Michael Purchase and I am a consultant for Prolong UK and I hope that I can shed some light on the issues raised with regards to Prolong within this thread, as all the issues raised are valid and worthwhile points, which to be honest I am very grateful to have the opportunity to address.

I think that perhaps it is best to start with the court action mentioned. This was undertaken by the Federal Trade Commission in 1999 and was levied at a number of US companies such as Slick 50, Duralube, STP and Prolong in an attempt to ensure that all marketing statements being used were true. After an 18 month investigation into every claim made by Prolong, and approximately $10,000,000 spent in independent scientific research, Prolong entered into an agreement with the Federal Trade Commission whereby Prolong agreed not to make any statements without there being adequate scientific evidence to support such claims, prior to their use, at which point we requested to have "The World\'s Most Powerful Oil" trademarked, and as such have been using this slogan since. The agreement has been  complied with 100% since 1999. Incidentally, unlike others who were ordered to pay up to $10 million, Prolong were not given any fine by the FTC. As in below post here is a link to the findings of the FTC action http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/legal/prodecis.html. It is an unfortunate fact for us that the wording within this document seems to indicate a wrong doing on our part until the very important line "unless, at the time the representation is made, respondent possesses and relies upon competent and reliable scientific evidence that substantiates the representation" Which vindicates all statements.

I started with this point in the hope that this adds more weight behind every statement that has been/and is continued to be made since this agreement.

I would next like to introduce our patent http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=8&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=4,844,825&OS=4,844,825&RS=4,844,825, which while not being a particularly marketable aspect to an oil, is in actuality a fundamental property of our lubricants, that being a process whereby the previously unstable and volatile nature of chlorinated paraffins are stabilized. It has long been recognized that chlorinated parafins have superb extreme pressure properties, and are therefore great in reducing friction, until they are exposed to heat, as they are within an internal combustion engine, whereby they break down to form hydrochloric acid, and begin harming the engine they were there to protect. It was for this reason that they have not been used within full motor oils for many years, an ASTM D130 rating is given to all motor oils which indicates how stable they are  and therefore suitable for use within an engine. Prolong has an ASTM D130 !a rating, the highest possible, meaning it is less corrosive than Castrol GTX, and this rating has been given to all our full motor oils.

Prolong have been producing full motor oils for a number of years now, and primarily only to add credence to the technology behind our lubricants, as it is a fact the regulations associated with the production of motor oils are far more stringent than for those associated with additives, therefore our oils are a way for us to demonstrate that we stand up to the more rigorous standards present today.

With regards to the warranty that accompanies our oil. The UK warranty was underwritten by Llyods who unfortunately did state that a vehicle has to have done under 100,000 miles at time of first application so you could put the oil in at 99,000 and the warranty will continue to run for as long as you own the vehicle. As it is a fact that due the extreme pressure properties of our oil, that once the oil is in, it is no longer possible for the metal surfaces to wear each other away, as the film strength in in excess of that which they can apply upon themselves, meaning that if the engine is working at the time you put the oil in, it will continue to do so indefinately, with only non-lubricant related failures being possible such as a timing belt going, or structural faults within the metal components themselves.

I am sorry at this point to render void the calculations G11ary performed with regards to costing, due to the fact that in actual fact the UK warranty requires services as per the manufacturers recommended intervals, only stipulating further use of our oil, therefore meaning there is no additional cost incurred over and above that which you would expect from your having used a high quality oil.

With regards to the temperature this is an area that is very key, and one which causes us significant frustration, as it is a fact the core active ingredient within our oils is actually able to withstand temperatures up to 1000 degrees Fahrenheit, however when mixed with other constituents this is reduced, with regards to spec sheets it is the lowest common denominator. 450 degrees Fahrenheit is that which is stated on our spec sheets, however this does not take into account the fact that the extreme pressure properties of our oil reduces temperatures, as well as the fact that a significant percentage of the oil in reality can withstand far greater temperatures.

The bottom line with regards to Prolong, is that our products do what they say they do, which to date has not been the case with some other companies, who at first glance appear to have comparable products, as they profess similar properties perhaps, just lacking to highlight the inevitable side effect that they invariably have (such as corrosive or have solid particles), and no doubt it is our mis-association with such companies which has prompted these queries, which as stated at the beginning are all valid and, in the interests of all who read, need to be addressed properly, for which I thank the below listers for taking the interest and creating the arena for these to be addressed.

No doubt there will probably be some further areas requiring clearing up for which I will be only too happy to address.

Kind Regards

Mike

Interesting - been following this discussion for a couple of days now.
 
One thing I\'m interested in - does anyone publish or have details of the sort of temperatures that exist in the various parts of a rotary engine and turbo ?
 
Clearly the bulk of the oil will remain at a much lower temperature than some of the areas in the engine - but what about those parts of the engine closest to the exhaust manifold - where temps are likely to be hitting the hottest - or indeed, in the turbo.  Here the oil has a very important job - in oil only turbo\'s it\'s both cooling and lubricating - how hot do the CHRA\'s run ?
 
I\'d appreciate any info anyone has on the rotary engine - it\'s hot spots and any mods that aid cooling.  Bit off topic perhaps, but related to the oil operating temperature none the less.

Hi Michael.
Thanks for your time and replying to this thread.
As I said in threads above my arguments was with the way it was advertised and the adverts were for your additive and not your oil, which I said I had no very little knowledge of and if Prolong have moved on since the additive problems then great. Most manufacturers have experimented and made errors, changed an moved on. But your distributor MRP has used misleading adverts (10 years old) and not answered any of the questions raised.
This thread and other threads on forum have in past asked questions of oil and usually been answered in one way or another satisfactorily or not, MRP have replied or answered none, after making very big claims.

I have to confess if you go on the FTC site there are lots to read through so it does make for confusing reading.
My link above suggests an out of court settlement with firm understandings not to mislead in advertising.
http://www.ftc.gov/os/1999/11/prolong.do.htm
But this is additives which are 10 years old, we would like to know more of the oil.

Thanks for your paragraph on the patent and ASTM D130 rating, this does sound good.

Thanks for going some way to clarify the warrantee, so you are saying if Im correct you ONLY need buy the oil and change at manufacturers intervals to obtain the warrantee providing the engine has done less than 100,000 miles and it is covered for life of the engine but not transferable?

But the Prolong site contradicts this with this statement.

"Keep with recommended service intervals and add Prolongs Booster Engine Treatment at oil changes (no more than 6000 miles/ 6 months)"

Full information here
http://www.prolong-uk.com/index.php?action=news&newsid=8

This suggests warrantee is invalid if not used with additive. Can you please clarify so I do not have it wrong.

As my calculations were as you pointed out wrong because of the unlimited warrantee unless on a 98 spec car or younger, if you car has no warrantee because it is over 10 years old my figures would have been higher as I calculated them on 6000 changes as per your max allowed on your warrantee page, but Mazda ask for 3000 mile changes so would have been double my estimate approximately.

Do you know what the combustion temp is in a rotary and how would this affect low temp range of core ingredients. Does this mean in a very hot running engine it wold be burnt off before effective or that it will be not present only n the combustion area of the rotor? Does it have any significance at all?

MRP quote on there site it is a rotary oil, can you confirm this, or is it Prolongs oil available for all and suitable for rotaries.

Thanks for your information to date, if MRP had not used misleading information or hype videos not related to the oil these questions may have never been raised and could now serve you if the answers on, extensive research are openly given and not just words.
REF my post number 118. questions still not answered.

I dont want to post further on this subject but will follow with interest any further comments and developments, it would just be nice if questions asked,  as you say "valid and worthwhile" were answered.

Thanks for your time.

I just wanted to clarify the relevance that the aforementioned video clips have with the Rotary Engine Formula Motor Oil. The videos were produced to advertise the Engine Treatment, but are valid marketing material to use as every performance benefit and claim can be reproduced with the oil.

The clips were edited and produced by us, on behalf of Mazda Rotary Parts to help them launch the oil to their customers.

The Rotary Engine Formula differs from our regular motor oil, as every aspect of the blend was aimed to reduce the burn rate of the oil, as well as elevated levels of core technology in light of the high performance aspects of the rotary engine.

I hope that this verifies the validity of Mazda Rotary Parts marketing, which in no way has been misleading and stands to benefit significantly every owner of a rotary engine.

Kind Regards

Mike

As a result of these posts above certain people saw it could be in their best interests to complain officially to Trading Standards with complaints that after investigation have not been upheld.

Mazdarotaryparts would like to take the opportunity to state that this was actually not viewed as a problem indeed we welcomed the challenge toward a product we firmly believed could enhance the life of the Rotary Engine.

As a result of the complaint Mazdarotaryparts had the claims of the Prolong Rotary Oil product, the validity of the warranty issued and all relevant advertising statements, be they web site, forum, video or other fully investigated.


Quite rightly the Trading Standards wished to make sure that the product was not wrongfully sold or advertised.


Trading Standards Agency has concluded its investigation and the result is that Mazdarotaryparts have not been asked or told to withdraw either the product or alter any advertising material surrounding Prolong Rotary Oil .


Mazdarotaryparts would also like to make it very clear that at no stage were any derogatory comments  made toward any makes of oil specifically on Mazdarotaryclub,  with the only  comments passed being that Mazda only recommend the use of Mineral oil inside of any of their Rotary Engines,


We would also like to make it very clear that had Prolong Rotary Oil not been Mineral based that Mazdarotaryparts would not sell the oil as it would go against the official Mazda recommendations.

Further information can be found on this thread.

  http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29434&highlight=Royal+Purple

The last thing we will make clear is that we at Mazdarotaryparts were asked if we would like to put in an official complaint by the Trading Standards Agency against the company/person that had issued the complaint,

This is a request that Mazdarotaryparts has declined.

I made a little oil - summary...

And the best oil (by far) when you look @ the values is MOTUL 300V factory line 15W50.
As the Silcolene also a motorcycle oil. But completely esther (double esther) basestocks. no "mixture".

@ Simon: what are your thoughts about using this oil in Rotaries. The values are obviously great!

here are the values:
                                                                                           

Motoröle:	MOTUL 300V   factory line
SAE Grade:	15W-50
Flash Point:	252,00
Sulfated Ash:	0,97
HTHS   Viscosity:	5,33
dyn Viscosity   @ 15°C
kin Viscosity   @ 40°C	115,70
kin Viscosity   @ 100°C	17,01
density @ 15°C	0,87
NOACK	4,90

Hi Oilman
 
As I know all the thread.
Just a simple question. Would you also recommend synth oil for first gen SA22 rotary 1979 ?
standard engine but hardly use in historic rally and race
 
I think about Motul 300V Le Mans 20w60 competition
 
JacekR35

@Wo:deep: spend any time following this thread? oilman has mentioned it on page 1 (post # 3, to be exact).

(Einfach eine gute Möglichkeit, dich mal wieder feiern zu lassen, gell? ;-) )

There is no question about modern rotaries - synth are ok. I am asking about 1979 rotary engine. (30 years old )
old rubber seals. Oilman mentioned that synth olis are comapatible with rubber seals for last 20 years. Are they good also for 30 years old first gen. rotaries ?

@Jacek: my post was directed to wo:deep, not you. ;)

I don\'t know what oilman can recommend for an SA, but i guess it could be similar to the others, rotaries it self are not so different, and you have to use new rubber/seals in your older engine equally.

The benefit of these oils is independent from the type of the rotary, i suppose. :)

Quote from: jacekr35;676920There is no question about modern rotaries - synth are ok. I am asking about 1979 rotary engine. (30 years old )
old rubber seals. Oilman mentioned that synth olis are comapatible with rubber seals for last 20 years. Are they good also for 30 years old first gen. rotaries ?

I had a search for you and found that this was said about Motul 300V Le Mans 20w60 competition


Oil for High Performance 4 stroke engine
Designed for professional of racing
100% Synthetic

As it is 100% Synthetic I would strongly advise against it as this has been know to swell up and destroy the oil seals on either side of the Rotors leading to engine failure,


Mazda says "Mineral Only" in ANY Rotary and they issued a prohibition notice and asked me to post it here on MRC and the RX8OC to tell the would NOT to use non Mineral in ANY  Rotary so I am at a loss  as to why these debates continue after all Mazda have made a few Rotarys over the years and surely they have every right to demand what is the best type of oil they want used.


Hope this helps

Thanks for a very informative post :D

Ive always run fully Synth , but only cos I was told to :d

Now I know why :D

I\'ve been following this thread since it first started and I certainly have no technical input, but it strikes me that Mazda don\'t help much if on one hand they advise semi-synthetics (that are not really synthetics) for the RX8 and now advise mineral only for ALL rotaries.

As the Fat Controller says on Thomas The Tank Engine they "are causing confusion and delay!"

Simon/Guy- alright fella\'s. Still have some ProS 5w40 from when I had the Elise. Just buying an FD3s, pick it up Saturday. Glad to know that ProS is ok for tuned rotary engines. The car I\'m buying has 350+bhp.

Will give you a call sometime for Diff oil too.

Stew Toal

Hello all,
 
I have read this thread (not all pages, but most) and gleaned no more information than I started out with!
It\'s a shame that we cannot agree wholey on what is best.
 
I use Mineral Oil in my car as;
1) I\'m new to RX7s
2) Thats what Mazda says to use
3) My Car is practically standard
 
Would I be right, and help other newbies, in summarising by saying:
 
Use Mineral oil in a (mainly) standard car - Up to 300bhp?
User Synthetic in a Modified car - over 300bhp?

Quote from: oilman;247208This is a misconception, synthetic oils in fact burn more cleanly and leave less deposits than their petroleum conterparts.
 
Cheers
Simon

thats the clincher oil man...CAN YOU PROVE IT?:cheers