Over the last few days I guess due to the weather, my intake temps soared to over 60 c and having been out for a cruise. After leaving the car for an hour I went out again and temps were in the high 70\'s, so I drove under 3500rpm and took it back home.
My question now is what to do, I want to replace the standard intercooler with a Vmount but cant afford the whole job at the moment so I was thinking about getting my vented bonnet first off. Has anyone got a vented bonnet with the standard intercooler ? Did you notice a significant drop in intake temps ?
Would I be better off going for water injection ? Anyone have any experience of a standard intercooler and WI ?
I want to be able to take the car out in nice weather without fear of killing the engine.
Bulla
Quote from: BullaOver the last few days I guess due to the weather, my intake temps soared to over 60 c and having been out for a cruise. After leaving the car for an hour I went out again and temps were in the high 70\'s, so I drove under 3500rpm and took it back home.
My question now is what to do, I want to replace the standard intercooler with a Vmount but cant afford the whole job at the moment so I was thinking about getting my vented bonnet first off. Has anyone got a vented bonnet with the standard intercooler ? Did you notice a significant drop in intake temps ?
Would I be better off going for water injection ? Anyone have any experience of a standard intercooler and WI ?
I want to be able to take the car out in nice weather without fear of killing the engine.
Bulla
If you want to go for a V-Mount The one I got would do you! They aren’t that expensive, especially if you go to source! Try chatting to Radtech Their number is 01543 502 525 and chat to Paul... They make them for the likes of Dragon, but I’m sure you can get them to make you one direct, and no middle man costs ;)
Don’t bother with water injection...Although it works well through making the air more dense, it you need to map the engine to use it and then a bloody huge tank to carry all of the water, run out of water and you are in a worse condition than before.
The bonnet really isn’t going to make that much of a difference as the inlet temps are as a result of the turbo compressing the air before directing it into the plenum, the only way to reduce this is through a decent intercooler.
Quote from: BullaI want to be able to take the car out in nice weather without fear of killing the engine.
Bulla
I\'ve been worrying about intake temps myself recently and it struck me the other day that all the worry is because the apexi PFC can\'t retard the timing based on knock levels.
The standard ECU would notice any knock caused by high intake temperatures and retard the timing to sort the problem. So, i guess the solution is to stick the stock ECU back in there! Unless of course, you have other mods (like a decat), in which case you\'re boned!
Ta, Paul.
Just to add 70c is way too high!!!
Mine are constant between 28 and 32
Yeah luckily I was watching the commander and drove it like a old man til I got it home.
Quote from: AtomicRexIf you want to go for a V-Mount The one I got would do you! They aren’t that expensive, especially if you go to source! Try chatting to Radtech Their number is 01543 502 525 and chat to Paul... They make them for the likes of Dragon, but I’m sure you can get them to make you one direct, and no middle man costs ;)
Don’t bother with water injection...Although it works well through making the air more dense, it you need to map the engine to use it and then a bloody huge tank to carry all of the water, run out of water and you are in a worse condition than before.
The bonnet really isn’t going to make that much of a difference as the inlet temps are as a result of the turbo compressing the air before directing it into the plenum, the only way to reduce this is through a decent intercooler.
Just wanted to clear-up some misleading comments above.
Our V-Mounts are made by Radtec, and we are the only retailers for them , we have worked in conjunction with them to design a good kit.
I cannot recommend water injection enough. As an example one of our cars runs 1.5bar on a completly standard factory Mazda engine on a T78 turbo, on pump fuel, this car continully runs 1.5bar and is still running fine and I would not entertain the thought of running that boost without WI.
Also the engine does not need to be mapped for water Injection.
The bonnet will make a difference, because the exhaust path of the I/C is very important aswell as the intake.
So Bulla, personally, I would recommend you go for W/I at the moment.
Quote from: AtomicRexJust to add 70c is way too high!!!
Mine are constant between 28 and 32
What, on the stock intercooler?!
Ta, Paul.
This is a real problem for me too man. Yesterday she was well over 70 after being left for half an hour after driving. The only thing I can do at the mo is leave the bonnet up for a few minutes before driving off again, surprisingly it can knock about 10 degrees off!!
I take it .8 Bar at 70 degrees intake is gonna upset the old lady somewhat ??
Quote from: DRAGONJust wanted to clear-up some misleading comments above.
Our V-Mounts are made by Radtec, and we are the only retailers for them , we have worked in conjunction with them to design a good kit.
I cannot recommend water injection enough. As an example one of our cars runs 1.5bar on a completly standard factory Mazda engine on a T78 turbo, on pump fuel, this car continully runs 1.5bar and is still running fine and I would not entertain the thought of running that boost without WI.
Also the engine does not need to be mapped for water Injection.
The bonnet will make a difference, because the exhaust path of the I/C is very important aswell as the intake.
So Bulla, personally, I would recommend you go for W/I at the moment.
I couldnt disagree more!
If budget is a problem, which I take it it is from what you have said, then the best option would be an intercooler.
There is no point in adding W/I on a standard intercooler, and it will cost at least £400 plus time to plumb in plus it is only effective if you re-map the engine (more money!!!). I doubt you are running that high a boost else you would already have a decent intercooler so once again the W/I is totally pointless!
Yes a bonnet will help with the flow of air around the engine bay, but one of the main issues with exhausts is heat soak, and I doubt that this will be a major contributor to your problem!
I am running a v-mount, and now that it has been correctly positioned (the first position was a tad crap due to the fact it was blocking the air intake!!) And although the same expert fitter recommended a gauze instead of an air filter, we thought it better to move it! I have an SPA thermo Couple monitoring the inlet temps, and they are excellent!!! 32 on full boost! :D
I \'believe\' the sensor for intake temp is in a location that causes it to suffer considerably from heat soak - this would explain the high temp after coming back to it. But after a short drive you should of noticed the temp coming back down?
I have a Greddy FMIC, a Scoot bonnet, RE-A bumper with a vent in the front and induction tubing feeding air from the front of the car into the engine bay - so you couldnt get much more air under there! I still see temps in slow traffic hitting 40-50. On a run 20-30. Ive seen heat soak increase it to 60-65, but as ive said this soon comes down after driving it.
So venting / intercooler isnt going to make that much difference I shouldnt think. So \'if\' you feel this is a problem as Ross said WI sounds like it would be the best way to bring the temps down - although a little expensive! (and a bit over the top?)
Quote from: AtomicRexI couldnt disagree more!
If budget is a problem, which I take it it is from what you have said, then the best option would be an intercooler.
There is no point in adding W/I on a standard intercooler, and it will cost at least £400 plus time to plumb in plus it is only effective if you re-map the engine (more money!!!). I doubt you are running that high a boost else you would already have a decent intercooler so once again the W/I is totally pointless!
Yes a bonnet will help with the flow of air around the engine bay, but one of the main issues with exhausts is heat soak, and I doubt that this will be a major contributor to your problem!
I am running a v-mount, and now that it has been correctly positioned (the first position was a tad crap due to the fact it was blocking the air intake!!) And although the same expert fitter recommended a gauze instead of an air filter, we thought it better to move it! I have an SPA thermo Couple monitoring the inlet temps, and they are excellent!!! 32 on full boost! :D
No idea why you think there is no point using W/I on a stock I/C. It will lower the air temps dramatically, it is more necessary on a stock I/C than an aftermarket one!
It is not only effective if you remap the ECU, further performance gains will be gained at the point of mapping. But its main advantage is safety, not performance. Very few people will actually map the engine to take full advantage of the water, because the safety margin is eliminated.
32 is not excellent, ask some of the people on here using W/I.
Quote from: DRAGONNo idea why you think there is no point using W/I on a stock I/C. It will lower the air temps dramatically, it is more necessary on a stock I/C than an aftermarket one!
It is not only effective if you remap the ECU, further performance gains will be gained at the point of mapping. But its main advantage is safety, not performance. Very few people will actually map the engine to take full advantage of the water, because the safety margin is eliminated.
32 is not excellent, ask some of the people on here using W/I.
I\'m running a HKS Downpipe, re-amemiya mid pipe and catback, and non-seq turbos at 0.95 bar. I wouldnt have the WI for performance as my stock injectors are at their limit for now, it would be for safety until I can afford to upgrade my fuelling and get a vmount.
The worrying thing was even after driving completley off boost for a good few minutes the temps had only dropped by 2 or 3 degrees.
Bulla
Just my thoughts on the matter although opinions will always differ:
i use my water injection as an added benefit to a FMIC and only on high boost, you will still have high temps when not running W/I which only comes on at a set boost, so you would have to give it some welly and boost to make the W/I kick in and reduce the temps, although it does work almost instantly.
You dont need to spend a fortune on an intercooler if you are prepared to do the fitting yourself. I paid £150.00 new for mine on ebay and it works really well. Its a universal one. You will obviously need pipes etc.
You could have a FMIC for the price of a Bonnet i would have thought. If you are worried about air to the rad, you could always fit the I/C flat in the bottom of the engine bay, it works on mine but obviously requires some work to fit it.
Good luck on what ever you decide
I would recommend the W/I, whatever route you take, so my advice is to get it sooner rather than later.
Also I would set the pressure switch to come in very early, you will use more water, but it will allow the intake temps to be lowered when you are just coming slighly on boost, aswell as full boost.
Quote from: DRAGONI would recommend the W/I, whatever route you take, so my advice is to get it sooner rather than later.
Also I would set the pressure switch to come in very early, you will use more water, but it will allow the intake temps to be lowered when you are just coming slighly on boost, aswell as full boost.
Good advice. W/I is an excellent safety measure no matter what mods you\'re running. It should have a massive effect on intake temps with the stock I/C, I ran it for a while with a SMIC and the difference was astonishing!
I\'m on full boost at 4k so I guess I could have it set for that.
Many thanks to everyone for all the replies.
Bulla
it is definately worth having if you are going to be doing more mods, it is normally set to come on with boost rather than revs though, mine is set at 0.7 bar which is on the safe side.
You can get basic kits for about £200 which work very well. (on the MRC track day my intake temps were 12 degrees constantly)
Ah right :Hammer I guess you could play with it until you found the right balance between temps and it drinking the water bottle in 5 mins ?
Bulla
Quote from: vxerI\'ve been worrying about intake temps myself recently and it struck me the other day that all the worry is because the apexi PFC can\'t retard the timing based on knock levels.
The standard ECU would notice any knock caused by high intake temperatures and retard the timing to sort the problem. So, i guess the solution is to stick the stock ECU back in there! Unless of course, you have other mods (like a decat), in which case you\'re boned!
Ta, Paul.
So I can drive how I like all day with my standard ECU and not worry too much even when its 30 degrees outside? cool.
could it be rigged up to work with the Apexi PFC? For example it comes on when the intake temp breaches a preset temp? Doubtful I know but worth an ask :)
Quote from: \'M@r{\']could it be rigged up to work with the Apexi PFC? For example it comes on when the intake temp breaches a preset temp? Doubtful I know but worth an ask :)
i dont think so although you can get fully mappable kits that follow the inj duty cycle but they are more expensive and obviously need setting up well. I think you really need a little boost to atomise the water well so you want it on boost before it kicks in.
All the people i know, even the high power cars, use a boost switch type with no issues.
In slow moving traffic why are the inlet temps so high>???? It\'s not as though you are going to be on boost surely??
Quote from: AtomicRexIn slow moving traffic why are the inlet temps so high>???? It\'s not as though you are going to be on boost surely??
heat soak :(
The air intake temperature sensor is screwed into the bottom of the UIM. The UIM gets hot, the sensor gets hot and the inlet temps go up. Also, if you have a SMIC, it is heatsoaked from the radiator directly below it
I am in the pro W/I court. This is one of the best mods for any turbo rotary and you will see a vast improvment in intake temps. I use Aquamist with their FIA2 controller which mimics the fuel injector pulse to control water flow, set to cut in at 0 PSI boost. I use distilled water from a 5ltr plastic petrol can and depending on driving it will last two or three fuel fills.
PFC does not retard ignition via knock sensor, but it does retard ignition by up to 10 deg between 60-80c intake temps
ok, this is making want WI now! Not to up the boost as such more for bringing down the intake temps. What are the best to get? With price affecting what is \'best\' considerably ;) :)
Mark I have WI on mine ( could have showed you at ACE) and I agree with wot ross says ..I am running about 430 at the wheels and my WI is for safety, only coming in at about 0.6 bar...and I wouldn\'t have it any other way....when my temps are getting too high from heat soak I just open her up abit and hey presto....shes cool again....but in saying that I dont get stupidly high intake temps....(probably due to my setup).....
The way mine is set up I could run on low boost with no water and still be safe.
Info on Aquamist HERE (http://www.aquamist.co.uk/)
Cooling mist HERE (http://www.coolingmist.com/)
Lowering the temps help (safety and more power) and water injection is great tool for helping that(nitrous is better tho).
What on earth do you think they do in japan?
Why dont they get all these problems?
Its a fair bit hotter than here, they track the cars with front and stock mounts and you rarely see water injection on them. Also i hear they tune more aggressively than or here. (cant all be down to the octane rating)
Forget Japan this is the UK! look at all the sites abroad and they will tell you this and that even the UK is divided :confused: Your PRIMARY concern should be your engine water temps, this hot weather has highlighted problems with intake / water temps, your car should not be overheating in this weather if you are seeing water temps of +90 crusing or 95+ in traffic or on your \'test track\' you have problems, inlet temps are a problem but not as much as you think, your engine will be fried if it overheats, high inlet temps prevent performance it wont go bang!
My best advice, ensure you have good engine cooling, if you have fitted a FMIC you reduce the cooling of the water rad - get a bigger one :D , if you have a SMIC install WI it is one of the BEST performance / safety mods you can do [it dont cost a fortune either, have a look on fleabay, or speek to your favorite UK tuner] AND it will stand you in good sted for future mods, I am sure Ross wont mind if I say at RS1 he was running a SMIC with WI and have a look at his times :D AND he drove to and from the track, think that says it all unless you want to talk about charge cooler / V mounts :mmmm
I believe there was a group buy from DubForce (some VW lads, not sure on their forum address) and for £225ish they got a variable rate type that followed the boost. Sounds like a bargain. On my wish list anyway. Have no more information to impart.
I\'m pro WI too. Check my post on high speed temp sensors. Much less prone to heat soak, and they will give you a real idea of whats going on. I watch my temps drop a deg/sec when I come off boost or start up.
Im not again WI, but as a quick fix and under a budget I was merely expressing an opinion that I didnt think it was the wisest of purchases. That a decent intercooler would be the best starting point
I ran it very successfully on my K-series and that was an engine that needed looking after, so fully understand the need, especially as when the inlet temps got too hot due to the initial design of the charge cooler it cost me £5k just for the engine rebuild!! :o
Quote from: AtomicRexIm not again WI, but as a quick fix and under a budget I was merely expressing an opinion that I didnt think it was the wisest of purchases. That a decent intercooler would be the best starting point
I ran it very successfully on my K-series and that was an engine that needed looking after, so fully understand the need, especially as when the inlet temps got too hot due to the initial design of the charge cooler it cost me £5k just for the engine rebuild!! :o
I personaly dont think that WI is a \'quick fix\' if you workout the cost of installing a FMIC [bearing in mind you will be increasing your water temps to the point where you could go bang] WI is a very cost effective way of decreasing your inlet temps without compromising you water temps, to do the FMIC correctly you need to uprate your water rad, or better still go for the V mount or charge cooler and keep your car safe from overheating. Which ever you choose will cost money, the WI will give you the decreased intake temps without that big outlay.
Quote from: antnicukYou dont need to spend a fortune on an intercooler if you are prepared to do the fitting yourself. I paid £150.00 new for mine on ebay and it works really well. Its a universal one. You will obviously need pipes etc.
I\'m quite interested to hear more about your DIY setup - did i hear that you mounted it flat under the car?
What kind of intake temps do you get?
What make of intercooler?
Cheers, Paul.