Dear Sirs,
I am expecting delivery of my new Mazda RX8 (232ps) at the end of the month. In preparation I have been getting insurance quotes. it has become apparent that the whole car insurance industry, has the wrong capacity listed for the engine.
The car is listed by all the insurance companies as having a 2.6L engine. Whereas surely it has a dual rotary engine with a total 1308cc capacity (2x654cc). Have I got confused somewhere?
In fact when I point out the mistake to brokers they say they cannot quote me because I am obviously talking about a different car. So I have had to agree that the capacity is 2.6L just to get a quote but its not right.
I am concerned to take out an insurance policy where the facts are not correct.
I have emailed a few insurance companies but don\'t know what can be done.
Any ideas?
Yours
Yvonne Parkins.
I suspect that you will have to have it down as the 2.6, its exactly the same as we have getting RX7 insurance. If you try and tell them its a 1.3, they get all funny and wont quote you.
You will probably have to tax it as a 2.6 also...
Cheers
Lee
This is due to an early agreement that Mazda came to with the DVLA when the RX-7 came out.
I think that Mazda were going try and re-agree this figure with them.
Dan
Hi Yvonne,
I was talking with AON yesterday and they now have a couple of RX-8\'s on cover so they defiantly know about them and be able to insure you O/K..
Please have a look at this thread as it should more than help with your problem.
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2268
Hope this helps.
All the best Clive
clive@mazdarotaryclub.com
//www.mazdarotaryclub.com
//www.mazdaRX-8club.com
So what you are saying Lee and Dan is that Mazda have agreed with the insurance companies that the engine is double the capacity that it actually is.
Well, I can see that the RX7 and RX8 behave more like 2.6L cars than 1.3s and I get that the insurance may need to do that to get the correct level of cover for these sporty cars.
However, the whole plan rather falls down when the brokers are saying that if the spec is incorrect, then you are not legally covered.
Are there any other strange anomolies that I am likely to come across as I move into the world of rotaries.
Y
Hi,
I read an interesting article trying to work out the actual equivalent piston engine capacity or the rotary engine, I\'ll try to recall the basics. \'m sure those who know these engines well will correct the mistakes.
In a 4 cylinder piston engine only 2 cylinders fire per revolution of the crank. So in a 2l engine 1l of work is done.
In a rotary each rotor fires on each revolution so we have 1.3l of work being done (this may be wrong as I also read somewhere that each rotor fires twice per revolution but the maths works better this way :) ). Doubling the 1.3l of work gives us 2.6.
The main problem is that it\'s totally different from pistons and doesn\'t compare well. There are enough of us insured though that the companies can\'t weasel their way out of paying up!
Iain
well one of the insurance co.s I wrote to suggested I contacted ABI (assoc. of british insurers) they tell me that it would be quite possible for an insurance co to not pay a claim based on the discrepancy in stated capacity.
I said all it needs is for the capacity to be stated as an equivelency but as it isn\'t, the cover is suspect.
The guy at ABI said that he would like a ride in the RX8 when it arrives but I told him that surely a man in his position could not risk travelling in a vehicle with suspect insurance.
they have suggested I get onto Thatcham and I will do that.
This is really a bit weird.
all the best
Y
ok it is Thatcham who are responsible for this info. i just spoke to a guy there who says that the info on the engine comes from Mazda itself and is based on the highest possible capacity of the engine which is 2.6L.
is this correct? does the rotary engine have a variable capacity?
let me know please
Y
It comes back to this. At any one time each rotor will have fuel in at least two of the three sides. So yes 2.6L is correct, the remaining 1.3L will be ejecting at that point.
Dan
here in Ireland the RX8 is going to be 1744cc and thay have done the same with the RX7 from this year.
Eddy
Hi Eddy,
Most strange, any more info on this one as l have never heard of that capacity being calculated at that figure before.
Yvonne did you ring AON and find out about problem which was gaining insurance for your RX-8 ?
All the best Clive
clive@mazdarotaryclub.com
//www.mazdarotaryclub.com
//www.mazdaRX-8club.com
thanks for advising on AON.
I didn\'t phone them before because I don\'t keep my car in the garage and so cannot use the classic car policy. However, they were able to offer another policy but it demands the fitting of a tracker which is expensive.
Their quote was in line with the cheapest quotes I have found elsewhere but the necessity of a tracker makes the deal uneconomical at present
There answer about the capacity is that it is listed that way to reflect maximum output and shouldn\'t be problem.
all the best
Y
Hi Yvonne,
They should still cover you if your car is just off road over night on your property , the inline with other companies quote should drop considerably if you were able to present them with a club membership number.
BTW incase you are wondering why l seem to be pushing AON it is purely because we set up a very special scheme through them for insuring rotaries ( RX-8\'s included) and will add that most car clubs receive a remuneration in return for sending people to them ,\'\'we don\'t\'\' as this has been set up purely to give our members the best possible prices for their cars providing they qualify but l will remind every one that the quotes must be directed through Adam or Chris Jones.
All the best Clive
clive@mazdarotaryclub.com
//www.mazdarotaryclub.com
//www.mazdaRX-8club.com
All this cc stuff is Bullshavings to me. If I buy a 50cc scooter, is it a 100cc if its a 2 stroke???
If I buy a 1000cc Turbo car, isnt the capacity actually more than 1000cc because I am burning more fuel than a normal 1000cc??
I think people are just jealous of the Rotary, and have to justify its superiority somehow! To me its a 1308cc and thats that! If its good enough Mazda and the Japanese registration, thats good enough for me.
I just did an online quote at esure and it was over £300 cheaper than the cheapest I had found anywhere else.
that quote is so low I am skeptical about it, perhaps I made a mistake but I don\'t think so.
I think it was them, but not entirely sure but they had the cars capacity as 2616cc which is even more odd.
Y
QuoteOriginally posted by Martiny
All this cc stuff is Bullshavings to me. If I buy a 50cc scooter, is it a 100cc if its a 2 stroke???
If I buy a 1000cc Turbo car, isnt the capacity actually more than 1000cc because I am burning more fuel than a normal 1000cc??
I think people are just jealous of the Rotary, and have to justify its superiority somehow! To me its a 1308cc and thats that! If its good enough Mazda and the Japanese registration, thats good enough for me.
HERE HERE, totally agree Mr Yates.
All the best Clive
clive@mazdarotaryclub.com
//www.mazdarotaryclub.com
//www.mazdaRX-8club.com
There are lots of arguments for and against but I think the capacity thing is fair for tax purposes. The 1308 rotary inhales as much air (if we ignore lots of other factors) as 2.6 litre 4 stroke engine during one crank rev so it should be subjected to the same taxation.
But the capacity (like a 2 stroke) should be listed as 1308cc
It just shows that cubic capacity is pretty insignificant when you step away from 4 stroke and reciprocating engines.
IF we were to take the calcs for displacement literally you can even work the capacity to 0 !
total capacity of all 3 chambers at max - total capacity of all 3 chambers at min = 0cc due to the fact that the capacity of all three chambers stays constant throughout the cycle.
Ahh, now THAT would be a fair basis for taxation!
I was intrigued by eddy\'s post about the stated capacity of the Irish RX8 so I went onto Maxda\'s Irish website and the RX8 didn\'t appear to be on it. When is it coming out over there?
However I found the article about the Renesis engine winning the \'best engine ever in the world prize\' :-) and noticed it said this
"There were 12 categories in all, including the grand prize, International Engine of the Year. Mazdas new RENESIS rotary engine was named "Best New Engine of 2003" and best engine in the 2.5 litre to 3-litre category. "
Note the capacity!!
Y
Hi, everyone
Did anyone try the Mazda dealer\'s insurance and compare it with other quotes? Maybe they could quote knowing exactly what they are talking about and be therefore cheaper. Or maybe I am just too hopeful. Anyway I would be interested in some feedback.
I went to the dealers\' today and the one in the showroom had "sold to (my name)" on the windscreen. Silver and gorgeous, as many other posts here I think it looks a lot better in real life than in the pictures. Now I am thinking of the next steps like insurance etc - I have a Puma at the moment and that is pretty high - I don\'t want to re-mortgage the house (again) just to afford insurance.
Regards
Teo
I originally got a quote from Mazdas own insurance and it was nearly £900 for me (full no claims, older driver etc) as opposed to £750 from AON who are recommended by this site.
the mazda dealer said that their own insurance was always more and couldn\'t really explain that when I asked.
However I got an online quote from Esure.co.uk which was almost £300 cheaper, they only give quotes to people they consider to be safe drivers!!!
anyway, its possible it was a mistake but worth trying I think.
Yvonne.
I also got a quote from e-sure which worked out at £340 p.a fully comp - car will be garaged and I have 8 years NCB. However if you use your car for business e-sure will not cover you. It is also worth trying //www.quotelinedirect.co.uk - I have used them for the last three years for my MR2 and they were the best by far.
//www.axamotor.co.uk are meant to be quite good too
Yvonne,
As an aside to the discussion on CC.
I pick my RX8 up in December and I was Quoted £1200 with Zurich, and £1300 with AXA. However I called Premier Brokers and they quoted me £690 with a £270 excess, with Norwich Union so it pays to shop about. Their number is 0870 777 1471
Regards
JR
QuoteOriginally posted by clive
Hi Eddy,
Most strange, any more info on this one as l have never heard of that capacity being calculated at that figure before.
Yvonne did you ring AON and find out about problem which was gaining insurance for your RX-8 ?
All the best Clive
clive@mazdarotaryclub.com
//www.mazdarotaryclub.com
[i url]www.mazdaRX-8club.com[/url]
hi clive just a word,
the calculating for 20b, in the uk is 3900, when i went to get mine registered in ireland it was 2600.
same thing happened witt my rx7 2616cc in the uk, but here 1744cc.
made inquires for the rx8 mazda ireland said that they got it changed to 1744 and so did another country sorry i can not remember which one.
rx8 arriving in ireland 12 nov price4200/4700 euro.
price in ireland to high but cc is fine.
any news on fast fours/rotaries magazine hope you are well take care .
eddie
My brother picks his up tomorrow and Mazda give you a weeks free insurance to drive the car away and get yourself sorted, unfortunately mazda want £1300 to insure him, he has one other quote at £1000 and AON (please check your qoute Yvonne) will ONLY insure your car if a tracker is fitted, that means when he phones them on Monday they will have to quote him about £600 just to be competitive, and Im sure if a tracker was fitted the others would also bring there quotes down.
You should advise your brother to get a quote from Esure. they seem to be coming up much cheaper.
Yes AON did insist on a tracker and that made it non competitive unfortunately.
Just test drove an RX8. All round good impression, light, responsive, fast. On the negative side, didn\'t like the lack of a normal speedometer. It is an extremely fast car that doesn\'t feel fast so you look down at the digital readout and it says 110 and you think \'how did that happen?\'.
Just got to wait those few extra weeks.
all the best
Y
brother says that mazda do an additional insurce called gap, sounds wrong but you can take it out upto 6 months after owning your car and insure the difference between price of car when written off or stolen and new price for upto 6 years.
In other words take out the insurance drive your car for 5years and 11 months burn your car and your insurance will pay you out say 10k and the Gap insurance will pay you the difference of 14k for new price. Theres encouragment for honesty from you.
Brother has spoke to AON and wont insure his girlfriend as a second driver as she is under 30. Have told him to try esure. For a club insurance scheme they seem to have more hang ups than other insurers.
AON just came back to bro and only match direct line, now will insure girlfriend but £1000 excess so still not cheaper and will drop tracker.
told him to try Carol Nash.
He has just a quote from elephant 250 pound cheaper than AON and girlfriend included, no tracker and only 360 excess.
QuoteOriginally posted by Yvonne
I think it was them, but not entirely sure but they had the cars capacity as 2616cc which is even more odd.
Y
2616cc would be tha more correct one as there are 2 654cc rotors = 1308cc then as described earlier for \'parity\' (nee jealousy) to pist-on engines you double that and get tha 2616cc that they listed.
Free insurance is apparently offered by Mazda insurance if you ring first, get a quote, and then "think" about it. Your dealer has to be in the loop, as you quote the Mazda insurance back to the dealer, on some special form. If needed, make sure you ask for it, as it is not offered as standard, but it will come out of the drawer on displaying "inside knowledge".
Tomorrow I will start the merry go-round of insurance companies, will keep the thread updated. Picking up the car on Saturday 15 - can\'t wait.
Dealer\'s manager drives an RX-8 already, today reported many envious looks by Ferrari and Porsche owners. I had already bought the car, so he might have even been honest and not fed me a sales pitch. Maybe.
Anyway, more on insurance tomorrow.
Brother picked up car yesterday and asked for the cover and got it, thanks. He has had the best price from elephant £850. Not seen it yet the bugger did not bring it to work this morning, think he is teasing me. He has let his girlfriend take it. Has anyone got the free rotary watch that was promised by mazda. Brother did not, not even the promised limited edition print. He loves the car though, just frustrated with all the broken promises from mazda. Dont believe a word the sales man tells you, seems they and mazda are full of crap, drive it and if like my brother you will love.
g11ary
what watch?
i did get the limited edition print but only cos I hassled the dealer and then mazda. Its not worth the hassle though. I could possible send a photo of it, if anyones interested and also can tell me how to post a photo.
I agree totally that mazda does not know what its doing.
didn\'t your brother try esure then?
I WANT MY RX8 NOW!!!! I AM FED UP WITH WAITING!!!
sorry- just lost it there for a minute. is shouting allowed on this forum?
Y
there was talk of something to comemorate a watch, rotor clock or plaque.
sure he did call esure, will double check.
Drove the RX8 last night for only about 8-10 miles, was very pleased with its feel and performance, after all the neg reads from other test drivers I was supprised just how torquey the car was, pulled very well from low revs, not forgetting this is not a sports or turbo charged car. I and my brother love it, but if I needed to buy a company car would think twice as it seems to be as thirsty as an RX7 around town, early days but he seems to be getting 15 mpg :(
As I posted before somewhere, one of the GTR forum moderators done a test in Japan with an FD and RX8 back to back the the RX8 fuel economy was worse than the FD.
Infact from the figures he posted it was worse than my FD gets. He said he believed it was done to the engine needing much more work than the FD to get anywhere.
Would be interesting to see what figures people really get. If it does turn out at 15 I can see a lot being up for sale soon...
Lee
this is the reply I got from Mazda about the cc of the RX8
"Thank you for your further e-mail from which I note your concern regarding the insurance rating of the Mazda RX-8.
The answer regarding the engine size of the Mazda RX-8 as used by insurance companies is unfortunately not a short one.
A conventional reciprocating piston engine and a rotary engine cannot be directly compared using swept volume (cc) as the common factor. A rotary engine will produce approximately the same power as a conventional piston engine of twice its cc. It will also have about the same fuel consumption and CO2 emissions as the larger piston engine.
In the early days of rotary engines, during the 1960\'s, and for several years after, car insurance and company car tax were related directly to engine capacity and more recently annual VED (road tax) for pre 1999 cars is engine size related. It was clear from the beginning that some form of \'equivalence\' was required and agreement was reached between the rotary engined car manufacturers, mainly NSU and Mazda at that time, and the Department of Transport, that rotary engined cars would be registered at twice their actual swept volume. This has been the case with Mazda from the introduction of the first RX-2 rotary engine cars.
The 13B \'Renesis\' engine used in the new Mazda RX-8 has 2 rotors and Mazda Motor Corporation calculate the swept volume (cc) as 654cc per rotor.
The car is therefore homologated at 654x2 cc, hence the Mazda RX-8 engine size is 1308cc.
However for registration purposes the swept volume is doubled and the V5 registration document will show 2616cc. This 2616cc will also carry over onto all \'official\' usage i.e. fuel consumption booklets, tax, etc (EC legislation also requires swept volume x 2 for emissions testing). This also means that all insurance companies will state the engine size of the Mazda RX-8 as being 2616cc.
I apologise for the long explanation but I hope that it has explained why your insurance company has correctly classified the Mazda RX-8 as having a 2.6 litre engine.
If you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact me.
Yours sincerely
Chris Twine
Customer Assistance Manager
Mazda Motors UK Limited "
*Well I think we had got there ourselves.*
all the best
Yvonne
I wonder if the DVLA will be looking at their records and going after all those FD owners who have the car registered as 1308cc.
Dan