Hi. Just to let you know know that I have found a direct replacement inlet temperatur sensor. It is used on some motorcycles. It does have a different plug though. Thread is the same.
It calibrates the same (I tested at 5°C and 40°C) but reacts about 20 times more quickly.
Now when accelerating from 30 to 120mph I can watch in real time the inlet temperature increasing as the intercooler heatsoaks. Which means my ecu can too and correct the fuelling.
Pip won\'t have to run such a large safety factor when he maps it also perhaps. Saving me petrol. Result!
If anybody is interested I can find the part number for you. Pm me.
Jon
i would be interested to know both the part no. and also any views other members or tuners have on this.
matt
john could you email any details you have for it sdminus@yahoo.co.uk
Did you see my thread on the topic. I dataloged a run which displayed the rate from which the sensor reacts
Scott
I\'m interested in this, as I want to run an eManage and Water Injection, and was going to use the inlet temp sensor as a secondary control - limit things when the temps get too high :2eek
The stock inlet temp probe on an FC is a small NTC thermistor, in a little screwed plug. It has hardly any thermal inertia, as its mounted in the air stream, but does seem to be a little sluggish to react to temp changes.
Do you have a link for your thread ?
ooh, yes please. I think anybody running water injection or uses a bigger intercooler will greatly benifit from it ! My email is shaun.wilmer@btinternet.com
Anything to make sure its running happily !
Shaun
Well-done good find! I would be interested to know the part number.
hey john, that is a good find! Nice one! But will this make any difference on the stock early spec ECU (non 16bit) i terms of fuel economy?
Crikey!! Yes i\'m on it.
I can get the vendor info and perhaps some of our vendors (Dragon??) can sell them or its been suggested a group buy. I cannot buy them myself but I have a few \'scrap\' sensors lying around.
I shall let you all know what Pip thinks. Its booked in for next wednesday.
Jon
One2watch. I believe they will work with all ecu\'s. Please check the calibration of your sensor before fitting. (Measure the resistance of both in hot and cold water. Should correlate within 5% I should say to be safe. You can see the speed difference nicely too by swapping from hot to cold water.)
Quote from: sdminusjohn could you email any details you have for it sdminus@yahoo.co.uk
Did you see my thread on the topic. I dataloged a run which displayed the rate from which the sensor reacts
Scott
Have you a link to the thread?
I would b interested to see if mazda kept the slow sensor all through production. My car is a 92 import.
Jon
Quote from: ProfI\'m interested in this, as I want to run an eManage and Water Injection, and was going to use the inlet temp sensor as a secondary control - limit things when the temps get too high :2eek
The stock inlet temp probe on an FC is a small NTC thermistor, in a little screwed plug. It has hardly any thermal inertia, as its mounted in the air stream, but does seem to be a little sluggish to react to temp changes.
Do you have a link for your thread ?
It is coated in plastic. Low thermal inertia but high thermal resistance! Air isn\'t exactly a good conductor either. I think another problem is heatsoak from the brass bass of the plug pouring heat into the sensor.
The plastic inlet elbow is nicely thermally isolated. Best location IMHO
Jon
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26339
Scott
sdminus@yahoo.co.uk
I have a full notepad datalog if you want it
Quote from: sdminushttp://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26339 (http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26339)
Scott
sdminus@yahoo.co.uk (sdminus@yahoo.co.uk)
I have a full notepad datalog if you want it
Thanks for the link. Yes I concur. I was surprised also at how slow it reacts. With the part It allows much closer tuning of fuelling I believe so we can run with less safety factor.
I wonder what supras+skyline sensor speeds are like?? Anybody know??
I think most people will be surprised at just how hot their inlet temps actually
get.
I could do with a datalogging setup. Do you use dattaloggit from NZ and a laptop?
Jon
Do you have a link, couldn\'t find anything through google ????
Cheers
Shaun
ELMWOOD SENSORS,ELM ROAD,NORTH SHIELDS, TYNE AND WEAR 0191 258 2821
Don\'t mention my name please.
Matt.
Johnathan. Yes i use the FC datalogit. On the way back from RS3 i managed to get the sensor down to -13 deg C after i chased a CBR up the A6 The ambiant was about 11deg according to ollies mazda 6 shed drager LOL :Laugh
Scott
Quote from: Jonathan_FThe plastic inlet elbow is nicely thermally isolated. Best location IMHO
Jon
I read about moving the temp sensor to the inlet elbow on one of the US sites a while back and have been thinking about it
I\'m interested in one of the faster sensors , anyone fancy organising a group buy ????
I\'m interested in getting hold of one of these senors, however - what do you have to do to fit it, rewire the old plug onto the new one?
Also, how do you go about checking the calibration - i assume you need a special tool to measure resistance at hot and cold?
Cheers, Paul.
please keep me informed too:)
Bump....
Come on johnathan_f! we need to know! :)
Ok Guys, I brought a few to japshow but didn\'t meet anybody from here.
You will need a new plug which is I\'m sure the same plug used by alot of car manufacturers for the side lights (vw definately). I would pop down a scrappy with the sensor and find a plug and chop it off and solder into your loom.
To check the sensor calibration, use a voltmeter and too bowls of water. Icewater and 80° water. Put the sensors in each of the bowls and measure the resistance or better, the temp the APexi is reading. Should tally within a few degrees.
I wouldn\'t suggest using with the standard ecu.
Jon
Thanks mate! :Thumbs-up
Cheers, Paul.
Did Pip get a chance to look at the new sensor ??
If so what were his thoughts , he\'s doing my rebuild at the moment so this would be the ideal time to get one
Tintin - No he didn\'t I\'m afraid. I\'d ask him when you are ready for the re-map.
ALL - I DON\'T KNOW HOW MUCH THEY COST!!! CALL THE FLIPPIN TRIUMPH DEALER!!!!! ARGH
Sorry, lots of PM\'s asking for price!!
Quote from: Jonathan_FOk Guys, I brought a few to japshow but didn\'t meet anybody from here.
You will need a new plug which is I\'m sure the same plug used by alot of car manufacturers for the side lights (vw definately). I would pop down a scrappy with the sensor and find a plug and chop it off and solder into your loom.
To check the sensor calibration, use a voltmeter and too bowls of water. Icewater and 80° water. Put the sensors in each of the bowls and measure the resistance or better, the temp the APexi is reading. Should tally within a few degrees.
I wouldn\'t suggest using with the standard ecu.
Jon
Yo...where is mine then ;)
So how was the drive home???:Tongue1
Quote from: LaeeqYo...where is mine then ;)
So how was the drive home???:Tongue1
Ok. You got me..I was exagerating! I MEANT to take some sensors to Japshow, but didn\'t meet anyone from here. Except Laeeq who\'s sensor I\'d left at home with rest!
The drive home was painful..I got bored of kisssing the windscreen and filled up with optimax b4 dropping the hammer and speeding back.
Walked in the door and turned on the telly.. Beckam scored! Perfect :Thumbs-up
Can i get a sensor of u mate - if u have any left??!
Hi John,
Hope you dont mind me picking your brains but I am hopefully going to be doing this mod pretty soon. Was just about to order the part but there seem to be 2 different numbers.
Just wanted to check if it was deffinately the latter from Elmwood sensor\'s?
Many thanks :wave
Quote from: Ricco_04Hi John,
Hope you dont mind me picking your brains but I am hopefully going to be doing this mod pretty soon. Was just about to order the part but there seem to be 2 different numbers.
Just wanted to check if it was deffinately the latter from Elmwood sensor\'s?
Many thanks :wave
They are one and the same Ricco.
Jon
Many thanks Jon! :wave
thanks for the info, i have read this through but i am just a little unsure of the effects on a stock ecu?
could it be bad.... or can the ecu react in time etc? would it be advisable in this case to put it in stock position and not the elbow?
sorry for beng a pain
Jonathan F:
Can you get in touch with me mate..... I would like one of your high speed sensors & plugs!!!
I\'ve emaild you with my mob no.!!
Cheers
Jono
This is an excellent idea for an FD because of the location of the stock sensor, which will heatsoak if the car is left idle for a while after a run..
Me thinks I will get on too..
Gents.
If you would like sensor and wiring loom connections I have them available for £25 posted to your door. This includes an installation booklet explaining how to check the callibration of your existing, and new sensor, and how to wire the sensor into your loom.
Regards,
Jonathan
Hia Jonathan, sorry I missed your call, I was stuck in a hole!!!!
did you get my email???
Anyway, payment sent to your paypal mate.
Cheers
Jono
Jonathon F can you call me.
Is this still available? Any more info on this?
And is it possible to just move the standard Sensor to the elbow with no ill effects to try and stop heat soaking of the sensor?
I have had one of these sensors for a while now. They\'re really good. And you don\'t really need to move them to stop heat soak, as they react so quickly you\'ll see them get cooler as you start moving. It\'s great!
These are available in limited numbers at the moment.
I you require a sensor, please email me at jonathan.f@hotmail.co.uk.
Regards,
Jonathan
These look good I need one.
emailed :)
You have email too :)
and another email coming your way....
Never one to follow the herd, you have another e-mail Jonathan.
Cheers Geezer.
You got mail from me too......
Nick
dont want to bring an old thread up but has any one heard from him??
Don\'t think he\'s on here much anymore (If at all). It\'s a Triumph air temp sensor if that\'s any help.
Yes Karl, he\'s sent me two units which I\'m hoping to install before I go to the Nurburgring, then I\'ll have a full weekend\'s data so we can see just how good they are.
Gotta install it first tho !!
Mart.
thanks for the bit of info guys :Thumbs-up
Dear All,
I have ordered the sensors and harnesses, they are due in 8-12 weeks.
Ross (Dragon) and some others have had sensors for trial. Ross has found the new sensor reacts faster than the standard sensor and has some log data from recent trials.
I am currently setting up a website to explain how the new sensor works, and to present the log data. When I have the product in stock I will post on this thread.
Best regards,
Jonathan Fennell
Fennell Developments
ah, i didn\'t think you came on o much these days! Many apologies! :wiggle
Nice one mate keep us all posted--I\'m in.:wiggle
As John said the parts wont be able here for a while. So you\'ll all have to wait for one. BUT it will be worth it as the diffrence is like night and day. The logs show it better than I can explpain, however the speed and accuracy is on another league, highly recommended.
Nice one thanks mate :D:D
Quote from: DRAGON;511164As John said the parts wont be able here for a while. So you\'ll all have to wait for one. BUT it will be worth it as the diffrence is like night and day. The logs show it better than I can explpain, however the speed and accuracy is on another league, highly recommended.
Yep. I\'m surprised more people didn\'t go for this originally. I love the way they react so quickly. It\'s excellent.
thirded! :)
Quote from: nikp;511179Yep. I\'m surprised more people didn\'t go for this originally. I love the way they react so quickly. It\'s excellent.
I\'ve only had my car since April 2007 so didn\'t know about it :D:D
Quote from: SmbFD3S;511232I\'ve only had my car since April 2007 so didn\'t know about it :D:D
What sort of a poor ecuse is that! Can\'t you read minds? :D:D :rollin
Quote from: nikp;511233What sort of a poor ecuse is that! Can\'t you read minds? :D:D :rollin
Lol :flamed ............erm no :D
Anyways, so does this plug into the existing wiring? I assume i\'m going to have to take the UIM off (again) and take out the old sensor to put the new one in?
Fed up of taking it off lol, but hey, at least i dont need to look at the vac diagram now, cos i know it by heart :D:D
Quote from: SmbFD3S;511236Lol :flamed ............erm no :D
Anyways, so does this plug into the existing wiring? I assume i\'m going to have to take the UIM off (again) and take out the old sensor to put the new one in?
Fed up of taking it off lol, but hey, at least i dont need to look at the vac diagram now, cos i know it by heart :D:D
Time to go single..................:Ladys-man
Is fitting an easy job ? Just a few bolts ? I think I need to remove piping and suchlike, no ?
Happy to attempt it when I get my car back, guidance would be most welcome, would be a shame not to get the sensor in before I go to the Nordschleife.
i love single turbo\'s :D
im in for this, keep us all updated with the progress.
Quote from: DRAGON;511164As John said the parts wont be able here for a while. So you\'ll all have to wait for one. BUT it will be worth it as the diffrence is like night and day. The logs show it better than I can explpain, however the speed and accuracy is on another league, highly recommended.
Update: These sensor assemblies are now in stock. Should you wish to purchase one, please send £69.99 to this PayPal address:
Jonathan.f@hotmail.co.uk.
If you have an enquiry about the sensor, you can email the same address.
For those of you who ordered a sensor in the summer, I will be sending you an email with the instruction manual for your information.
These sensors will also be available through Dragon.
All sensors are checked prior to shipping to ensure calibration. Included with the product is a guide showing how to check your own sensor calibration prior to fitting. It is recommended that the sensor is fitted in the standard position under the plenum and that this work be carried out by a competant mechanic.
This is a great product and those of you with Apexi Comanders and laptop links will see the benefit immediately. Don\'t be dismayed if you see new peak temperatures - they were there all along. Now that you are aware you can target them with upgrades to intercooling. If your car is due a mapping session, fitment of the sensor will allow your map to be leaner without risking the engine. Saving you fuel and giving you a punchy tight response.
I look forward to your questions about the product.
Best regards,
Jonathan Fennell
Awesome, something else for the shopping list :D
Shaun
Hi, when you say peak do you mean peak high or peak low?
Does the new sensor require a new rewired plug? I presume i will be safe using this sensor with my old map?
Its a great upgrade Shaun. Do you have an Apexi and commander? The first time you take the car out will be an eye opener.
Mr Hoover,
The sensor is a fast responding version of the standard Mazda conponent, it comes with a new harness that will require soldering into your loom in place of the existing sensor. Heatshrink is supplied to make a professional and permanent installation.
Because the sensor is has a faster response, it is able to record higher and lower temperatures. If you have ever wondered why your water injection, or a sudden increase in speed (and intercooler efficiency) does not translate into rapid variations of inlet temperature, then the standard inlet temperature sensor can be blamed. We may never know why the standard sensor is so shielded from actual intake conditions, I suspect it is to avoid surging during acceleration from heat soak.
I personally prefer to have a car that makes the best use of its fuel and inlet air, so when a slug of cool air comes through I would like my ECU to know about it, and fuel the car to suit. More power, better economy, its a win win situation.
Best regards,
Jonathan.
money has been sent dude :D
Payment sent too thanks!
whats the difference in economy like?
Quote from: rx jamie;553117whats the difference in economy like?
That is a good question. Unfortunately, without spending £5000 at MIRA\'s climatic windtunne,and testing a vehicle on a known duty cycle, its impossible to answer.
This sensor will allow you or your tuner to map the car leaner, you will need to change the mapping at some point to get the full benefit of this product.
For an example: The sensor is reading 70°C inlet air because you have been stuck in traffic in a carpark. As you leave the carpark and accelerated onto an A road you trigger the water injection setup and intercooler temperatures drop rapidly as the external airflow increases. At this point the standard temperature would still be reading 65°C. This faster response porduct will be reading much closer to the true temperature, within a few degrees, say 15°C. The ECU can now put in extra fuel to suit this cold dense air leading to more power.
Your tuner will have put a blanket safety net into the map - it will all be slightly rich so that when these heat soak applications occur, you will not run lean and detonate.
I hope that goes some way to answering your question.
Jonathan
Quote from: Jonathan_F;553049Its a great upgrade Shaun. Do you have an Apexi and commander? The first time you take the car out will be an eye opener.
I do, plus I\'m in the process of going to 850/1600 injectors and upping the boost on the GT3574 with WI !
Shaun
its not something im really concerned about economy,but i take it from your reply its not a noticeable improvement, in terms of noticing it on your milage reading to a full tank, since replacement of the old slow sensor.
i think its great find by the way. i shall have to get myself one. :3gears-rh
Payment Sent :D Might as well install it when I do my fuel system upgrade !
Shaun
Damn wish I had seen this got mapping booked for thursday at RE:Worx guess I\'ll save it for the next time.
Good work by the way
Quote from: rx jamie;553117whats the difference in economy like?
I have calculated the theoretical possible fuel economy increase. I have used a generic temperature correction curve and assumed a worst case heat soak of 40 degrees C. To explain, the temperature correction curve is that which the ECU uses to determine how much fuel to put in, dependant on incoming air temperature. i.e hotter air=less fuel.
The heat soak is from my own experience, I have seen 70 degrees on a cool day, so 40 degrees is quite conservative. Others may have seen more or less?
The reduction in fuel for a 40 degree increase in inlet air temperature is 6%. It can be argued therefore, that to guard against a lean condition, a \'safe\' map would be at least 6% rich due to the sensor lag.
To conclude, a 6% reduction in the over-rich condition should be possible.
This works out at £13.50/1000miles (20mpg, £4.5/gallon).
This is a general rule of thumb and your driving style, car setup, etc will effect any gains.
Regards,
Jonathan
just brought one of these from dragon..... ill let you know how i get on!
wont it be hard to map if the inlet temp is flying all over the place?
Hi Jonathan, Is this the same sensor I had from you back in 2006 or have you found an upgrade
Quote from: oddball;554852Hi Jonathan, Is this the same sensor I had from you back in 2006 or have you found an upgrade
Hi Oddball,
This is the same sensor. You had a prototype, these sensors are from a production batch. There is no difference between the two. How are you getting on with it?
Dr Schnitzel
Thank you for your question, its a good one. When mapping a car you are altering the ignition timing and the fuelling at each load point. You examine the data output in four ways - knock, AFR (Air fuel ratio - lean/rich condition), EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature), combustion pressure. With this information you can adjust the timing and fuelling to suit your requirements of power, economy, and driveability.
When rolling road mapping, the demands on the intercooling system are extreme as airflow may be down on normal road/track conditions. This can cause the inlet air to run hot and cold depending on your load state.
If the inlet air sensor is not following the actual inlet air temperature, the ECU will not be able to match the fuelling correctly and this will cause rich/lean conditions. This will actually make it more difficult to map, as you will need to wait longer at each load point for the sensor to \'catch up\'. Straining you engine for longer than necessary, and increasing the risk of detonation.
It is actually easier to map a car with a faster acting inlet temperature sensor, as it is for any sensor. The better your input, the faster the ECU can respond and the steadier your outputs will be. Its important to understand that the ECU is using the inlet temperature to adjust the fueling automatically, all the time the engine is running. You will not be able to \'see\' any difference unless you specifically look at air inlet temperature.
Its also important to note that if your car does heat soak, the ECU steps up the fuelling (at abot 60-70degrees C) to reduce the detonation risk. This impairs fuel economy and makes the car sluggish, and the risk of plugs fouling is increased. This sensor eliminates the heatsoak at source. You may still see high temperatures, this will be due to an overstressed or poorly constructed inter - cooling assembly.
If you speak to Ross at Dragon, he is very positive about the sensor and has told me he will encourage his customers to have one fitted to their cars.
I hope this answers your question.
Regards, Jonathan Fennell
Jonathan, Júst another question on the sensor. is it safe to fit without having a remap, you may of answered this in the post above, but im not sure, thanks
Yet to be fitted, had the car converted to manual, plus a rebuild and a few other things so forgot all about the sensor. Will get it fitted next time I go to REWORK. What is now recommended, just replace standard sensor or relocate under elbow.
Quote from: Clarky;554875Jonathan, Júst another question on the sensor. is it safe to fit without having a remap, you may of answered this in the post above, but im not sure, thanks
Hi John,
Another good question. The sensor is safe to use without a remap. It is an automotive grade unit and I personally check the calibration of each item. There is a risk (very small)that your own sensor has drifted out of tolerance and when your car was mapped, the fuelling was adjusted to suit this \'drift\'.
The risk of damage is very small for two reasons:
1. A 40 degree C \'drift\' is worth half an air fuel ratio. That means that if your sensor was reading 40 degrees cold, then replacing it with a correct sensor will cause your car to run 6% leaner (half and air/fuel ratio). If your sensor was this far out, your tuner would (should) have noticed as your inlet temp would have been -20 degrees C in an ambient environment!
2. Included in the instructions with the product is a simple method to check the calibration of your sensor. You will require a volt/resistance meter to do this, or have a laptop link/ commander so that you can read what the ECU is \'seeing\'.
I hope that answers your question.
Ross, would you be able to comment? You have more experience than I.
Regards,
Jonathan
Quote from: oddball;554879Yet to be fitted, had the car converted to manual, plus a rebuild and a few other things so forgot all about the sensor. Will get it fitted next time I go to REWORK. What is now recommended, just replace standard sensor or relocate under elbow.
Hi Oddball,
I developed this product on my own vehicle. I had already moved the original sensor to the elbow to reduce heat soak. I found that the new sensor worked very well in both positions. Best practice is to fit the sensor in a position as close to the engine as possible. This is to allow the sensor report the air temperature as accurately as possible. I would fit the sensor in the standard position. Ross has done more work with these sensors than I, so let us see where he has been placing it, although I know his installation is very different to most. Ross?
Regards, Jonathan
Location is something ive played with on the circuit car, and yes years ago, it was best to move the sensor to say the elbow, to get a more realistic airtemp, as the stock location would heatsoak, and therfore your ECu would be making unecessry compensations.
However with the new sensor that is far quicker, I have moved it back to its original location!
Also with Auxillary injection being more commmon place, it is benificial to get a more realistic idea of actual air temps as close to the combustion chamber as possible, because the cooling via the AI will be done in the inlet tract, and I think if the sensor is further from the jets, it gives the AI and the air a chance to flash and give a accurate actaul intake temp.
Jonathan, is there any update on when these will be available? I have ordered and paid for one through Ross at Dragon but he hasn’t received delivery.
I really need this by the latest on Friday as im getting my car mapped at the weekend.
cheers
Forgot to say, Arrived in Post early this week :D
Shaun
have you fitted it yet?
Quote from: hairyhoover;557604Jonathan, is there any update on when these will be available? I have ordered and paid for one through Ross at Dragon but he hasn’t received delivery.
I really need this by the latest on Friday as im getting my car mapped at the weekend.
cheers
They arrived yesterday and was sent straight out yesterday with Royal mail.
sweet! cheers Ross!
yeh received mine earlier in the week as well, thanks.
Recieved as well thanks
Quote from: hairyhoover;557656have you fitted it yet?
Not yet, still plenty of stuff to do before it goes on !
Shaun
Payment sent
payment sent!
Hi Jonathan any idea when i get the sensor.
Quote from: davyv;561420Hi Jonathan any idea when i get the sensor.
Hi Dave,
The sensors were despatched on Saturday, 1st class. You should both receive them tomorrow (Tuesday).
Regards,
Jonathan
the senor is on. the temp definatly drops much quicker after the UIM has heatsoaked. £70 well spent just for the peace of mind!
Here we have a graph of the response of both sensors to the same input. Its possible to see the lag the standard Mazda sensor (red) has to a step input during the first 100s. Later in the test, the temperature steps are more rapid and the Mazda sensor does not \'see\' the environment - registering an average of the system temperature. The FENNE Developments RIAT sensor (blue) follows the system changes closely.
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii111/jonathanf/ResponseCurve.jpg)
OK thanks.
Turned up as you said, thanks.
These sensors are now available on ebay, giving you more security and buyers protection. I have to use an auction format for the first 5 units until I achive 5 feedback points, then I can switch to But It Now for instant customer gratification!
Search for RIAT.
Regards, Jonathan
Hi, i\'ve just bought one of your sensors (Ebay) i\'m just in the process of fitting it, should i put any PTFE tape on the treads before fitting or doesn\'t it need it?
I didn\'t when I fit it. I think there is a rubber seal on the seat if I remember correctly !
Shaun
I was just thinking it may help with heat soak off the manifold?
Quote from: Grizzly;608228Hi, i\'ve just bought one of your sensors (Ebay) i\'m just in the process of fitting it, should i put any PTFE tape on the treads before fitting or doesn\'t it need it?
Hi Grizzly,
Good question, I would suggest that using PTFE tape is fine in this instance. I don’t think it would improve thermal heat transfer into the sensor by a measurable amount. The PTFE fills the holes in a threaded joint and may actually increase the heat transfer co-efficient of the joint. It is further insurance that the joint is air tight however and I find that PTFE is very good at preventing threads from seizing.
Can you let me know how you find the sensor? I have sold around 40 of these now, all around the world, and I have 100% positive feedback, but nothing to constructive about how the sensor has been used, and whether anyone has managed to improve their map to increase power/driveability and reduce fuel consumption.
Just fitted my sensor a few weeks ago. Didn\'t have an apexi before but my brothers car is similar. My temp readings are so sensitive to style/speed of driving, absolutely incredible compared to my brothers oe sensor.
Will report back on MPG after this years trip to the Nurburgring.
Thanks :)
Hi Rob,
Thanks for the feedback. Your experience is mirrors my own. I really need some further details of someone who has \'closed the loop\' and re-mapped their car with the new sensor.
Dragon has found the sensor helps him with his cars, but obviously, fuel economy is not really a factor for him.
Did you find the instructions clear enough? How would you improve the kit?
Best regards,
Jonathan
Fitted mine also a couple of months back and is due to be mapped within the next few weeks so i\'ll post up my experiences also after running it for a while to monitor everything.
Instructions, you can\'t really go wrong with, think the only improvement possibly would be if it came with the connector already soldered but other than that dont really see how you would improve it to be honest unless it came with a pocket to install it into the elbow instead of the plenum?
Mines been mapped with it in place but I had done quite a lot of other mods at the same time. Told pip about it and he gave the WI a good slug before each power run. Does drop very quickly when your setting off WI, almost an imediate drop by 10deg if you get in the 37-45deg on air temp !
Shaun
WGT fitted mine and Pip said it was extremely easy to map. As said I\'ll get a better understanding of MPG on the long drive to the Nurburgring
Thanks for the feedback all. I looked at having a \'plug and play\' system to avoid having to solder in the harness, the connector is now no longer supported by the manufacturer.
I wouldn\'t recommend fitting the sensor in the elbow, the plenum will give you more accurate temperatures, you want the sensor to be as close to the engine as possible. This does depend on the position of your WI and any extra injectors.
Its great that Pip has found the sensor helps with mapping. Did he give you a discount?? :)
Regards,
Jonathan
Hey Guys, I\'ve taken a punt and bought a thousand of these sensors, allowing me to slash the price to £30. Now I need to \'break\' the American and Australian market. Any ideas on how to do this? My Ebay advert is visible in American Ebay but I have not sold any sensors there yet. Strangely, my biggest market is Greece/Spain/Portugal. I need to advertise I think, but where? Jon
Advertise on forums, the yanks are already talking about them on rx7club, try ausrotary, nopistons, fdrx7.com and spread the word. Hell I\'ll even have one for 30.
Hi mate, ill take one do you have an addy where i can send the money to?.
Cheers
Matt
Hcve been reading alot on this and am thinking of getting one too - am pretty sure this is the link to them on ebay #;o)
Phil
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=250470249074
Quote from: matt p;630944Hi mate, ill take one do you have an addy where i can send the money to?.
Cheers
Matt
Guys (and Gals), all I can say it buy one, cheap mod that really shows the constant changes in temperature. You\'ll be surprised how high the intake temps get when booting it and then how quickly they drop afterwards compared to the OE sensor.
Unfortunately my water seal has failed so I won\'t have any MPG feedback for you for a while :(
Quote from: NurburgRob;631091Guys (and Gals), all I can say it buy one, cheap mod that really shows the constant changes in temperature. You\'ll be surprised how high the intake temps get when booting it and then how quickly they drop afterwards compared to the OE sensor.
Unfortunately my water seal has failed so I won\'t have any MPG feedback for you for a while :(
Ah, thats rubbish. Have you determined what has caused the weater seal failure? I\'m an engineer with some fundamental knowledge about O-Ring seals that may help you. I also have a new product I want to trial...send me an email and I will help you if I can.
Jonathan@fennelldevelopments.co.uk
Thanks for the ideas guys, now, if we can just move this conversation to OZ Rotary etc...
just \'discovered\' these and bought one from your ebay shop, sounds brilliant!
Just been on RX7Club and there is a chap selling a copy of my sensor. Well, they say immitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I have to say, his sensor looks a bit \'chinese\'. I probably wouldn\'t want to fit that to my engine. If the sensor tip breaks off, a) it goes into your engine and b) your ECU doesn\'t get a signal- bad news if your boosting. Anyone who has my sensor, do not worry, its manufactured by the same company as the Triumph sensor, and has therefore been tested extensively.
Sales are up already guys, so thanks for those that have bought one. 900 left! Hurry hurry. ;)
Quote from: fil_auto;631047Hcve been reading alot on this and am thinking of getting one too - am pretty sure this is the link to them on ebay #;o)
Phil
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=250470249074
Cheers for that dude, im on teh case now:Thumbs-up
Quote from: Jonathan_F;631275Ah, thats rubbish. Have you determined what has caused the weater seal failure? I\'m an engineer with some fundamental knowledge about O-Ring seals that may help you. I also have a new product I want to trial...send me an email and I will help you if I can.
Jonathan@fennelldevelopments.co.uk
Thanks for the ideas guys, now, if we can just move this conversation to OZ Rotary etc...
Sorry, I don\'t understand your comment. I never suggested the water seal failure was anything to do with the air temo sensor. I said that with the new sensor you get to see the temps rise and fall quickly. I was also stating that I cannot give any MPG feedback at the moment due to the fact that after 50K on the original engine it is showing signs of water seal failure.
I was actually praising your product and referring to your request earlier about feedback on the other benefits to using this sensor
Can you give me a brief explanation of what ideas you have that can help me right now?
Your O-ring comment has lost me also???
Been meaning to for while and after just purchasing a nice Apexi intercooler, thought I\'d have one of these too - look forward to receiving and getting fitted #;o)
Cheers Phil
Quote from: NurburgRob;631612Sorry, I don\'t understand your comment.
That’s rubbish- As in: unlucky, or bad luck mate. Its a phrase circulating at work. Obviously doesn’t travel well online!
Had mine fitted for a while now, and no problems at all, much more confident with the car and knowing the ECU is actually seeing the air temp instead of radiant heat :D
Can honestly say i\'ve never took much notice of the MPG from day one to be honest, when it\'s empty i just fill it up.... No point buying a car like this and then whinging about the MPG but hey....
Anyways, just as a side note, glad you got Darren sorted out on Sat Jonathan, met up on Sunday and he\'s well happy :D Look forward to further developments :)
Quote from: SmbFD3S;631679Anyways, just as a side note, glad you got Darren sorted out on Sat Jonathan, met up on Sunday and he\'s well happy :D Look forward to further developments :)
Hi Scott, glad you put us in touch. I\'m on with the next product now, although it may suit you better...are you working on your fuel system? I have a nice upgrade that looks factory, replaces the standard (expensive) fuel filter with a high flow replacement and the restrictive fuel 6mm fuel line with 10mm line. I would just like to fit it to another car to check my instructions are correct. No one wants a product with incorrect instructions do they? Jonathan
Quote from: fil_auto;631047Hcve been reading alot on this and am thinking of getting one too - am pretty sure this is the link to them on ebay #;o)
Phil
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=250470249074
Link seems to have expired.
try this one
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mazda-RX7-Racing-Inlet-Air-Temperature-RIAT-Sensor_W0QQitemZ250476438866QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item3a518f2552&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
And Jonathan, can you email me some details please?
Thanking you kindly :)
I\'m considering getting one of these but I\'m wondering what\'s the catch ? The write up makes it sound like a must have product. Are all tuners now using these, if not why not ? If the improvements are as good as they sound why has it taken so long for someone to discover something like this ? Not trying to have a dig I\'m just curious....
Bulla
Dont believe there is a catch mate, just think the original design was flawed somewhat...
Dragon are using these, dont know about other tuners... But prior to this people used to just move them from the stock location to the inlet elbow to help prevent heat soak... If you\'re worried it\'s not picking up the temperatures correctly or anything i can assure you it is... I have a calibrated stand alone temp sensor in the inlet elbow (installed before the RIAT sensor was put in) and they read within a degree of each other...
I wasn\'t really worried about it not picking up the temps as everyone seems happy with them. My reason for posting was that normally when something sounds too good to be true then there\'s a catch somewhere ! In this case it sounds like there is no catch :Thumbs-up
Quote from: Bulla;631851I\'m considering getting one of these but I\'m wondering what\'s the catch ? The write up makes it sound like a must have product. Are all tuners now using these, if not why not ? If the improvements are as good as they sound why has it taken so long for someone to discover something like this ? Not trying to have a dig I\'m just curious....
Bulla
Great question. I have had a good look at some of the big hp motors etc and I have notided that some tuners have replaced the sensor with a different type, it looks like something you could get from RS. I believe they are aware of the problem, but have kept it to themselves- trade secrets and all that. I should think its like port templates - no one wants that info getting out.
Anyway, the RS sensor types are not necessarliy fuel and vibration safe, so I\'ve specified this sensor, that has been designed and tested for this application. I took the precaution of testing it myself and with a few others for two years- no problems at all. The product is selling itself now! I\'ll have run out in 3 months.
Interestingly, independantly, a chap in the US has started a thread stating he has seen two engines blow on the rollers due to the IAT (the sensor) reading incorrectly. There is some info on why on the EBay ad. Here is the US thread:
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=846698&highlight=temperature+sensor
This tie\'s in with the stories I\'ve heard of engines letting go unexpectedly.
The main push of my products (I have a fuel system upgrade as well) is to make our cars reliable and economical. The two main weaknesses in my opinion.
Thanks for the info Jonathan makes interesting reading.
Hi John i have replied to your question on delivery on ebay ok
Mark
Right then guys, I\'m done with talking about these sensors now, I started a thread on RX7 Club but its not getting much response. Lets see what we can do!
Its simple really. I want to make my RX7 bullit proof! Over the last three years of ownership I have identified a number of weaknesses. Basically, I don\'t want my engine to blow, I don\'t want it wearing out either, BUT I do want lots of power!
Cooling system - struggles to cope with more power - the thermostat very restrictive. High metal temperatures invoke detonation.
2. IAT - inlet air temperature sensor reads slowly - casues lean condition with large intercoolers and water injection. Again, brings on detonation.
3. Fuel system - needs a swirl pot and a larger filter (filter to replace restrictive standard item) to avoid air bubbles reaching the injectors. Yet again, to avoid detonation.
4. Steel fuel lines rust allowing flakes of rust to fall into the injectors. Causes lean running due to blocked injectors. Yet again, to avoid detonation.
5. Large ports give large overlap - without combustion pressure sensors fitted during mapping, a correct map cannot be obtained. Over rich map promotes engine wear through bore wash and oil degradation.
6. Aftermarket low temperature thermostats cause the engine temperature to fluctuate during normal use - leads to gasket/O-ring failure.
I\'ve run out of steam, but I\'m sure there are more! I\'ve got some ideas to solve these possible problems that I\'d like to talk about
not sure about the thermostat issue - theres masses of conflicting advice - i have run with a cooler sard thermostat and had no probs for two years, i have now gone back to the stock one and honestly its only a couple of degrees different opening temp, running temp is the same and there never were any fluctuations noticable on the defis. electric waterpumps etc sound like a good idea but you can over-cool the engine and lead to inefficient burn etc, as well as having another electrical part that could go wrong.
i get the deal on the inlet temp sensor though, you\'ve sold me there - i\'ve bought one havent installed it yet, unfortunately i had the plenum off a few weeks back before the new sensor arrived and cant face doing it again quite yet!
is there any mileage in an uprated water or oil temp sensor? don\'t suppose it would help much, unless the current ones are duff.
Quote from: ashc;634333i get the deal on the inlet temp sensor though, you\'ve sold me there - i\'ve bought one havent installed it yet, unfortunately i had the plenum off a few weeks back before the new sensor arrived and cant face doing it again quite yet!
If you have small hands you can change it without removing the plenum....agh! Talking about the sensor again.
I think the same gains can be had on water temperature. I can\'t give too much away but we made some gains with a new faster acting water temperature sensor. Very similar to the air sensor gains as the ECU reads both to controil fueling. I\'ll measure the time constant of the standard Mazda sensor vs the one we use at work.
You mention your temps don\'t vary that much. Do you have any other mods to the cooling system? Also, what sort of power are you making?
oops, mods, yeah well it is a 94 fd, stock twins, supra fuel pump, feed FPR, full v-mount with PWR alloy large rad/intercooler, reamemia air filter, no airpump (idler pulley), efini y-pipe, profec-B spec II making 325 at the fly at 0.8 bar (dynodynamix @ re:worx) (reliability mods really, not interested in big power (yet!!)) and all the handling mods i can think of. Vmount = probably why the temps dont vary much!
might have a go at getting the temp sensor out if you think you dont have to remove the plenum, thanks for the tip! I will also need to to do the calibration check, what temp water do you recommend to compare them with or doesn\'t it matter?
Quote from: ashc;634343might have a go at getting the temp sensor out if you think you dont have to remove the plenum, thanks for the tip! I will also need to to do the calibration check, what temp water do you recommend to compare them with or doesn\'t it matter?
I do recommend always doing the calibration test, I\'ve checked every sensor I\'ve sold and they have always fallen into the tolerance band. However, the sensor in your car is over ten years old. Your engine is worth the check, it takes minutes. Cold tap water and hot tap water is fine.
installed it tonight, there was no way i could get the old one out without getting the plenum off, never mind! Did the calibration check, the new one definitely reads loads faster, you could see that with the ohmeter. it seemed to be within about 5% of the old one, so i soldered it in. havent driven it yet to test it, hope it gets me to work in the morning!
ok my inlet temp sensor is dead... i need a new one, where can i get one of these????
Right, so time has passed on this, I guess some of you have guinea pig\'d - anyone got anything t report about these before I invest?
Quote from: SiH;663409Right, so time has passed on this, I guess some of you have guinea pig\'d - anyone got anything t report about these before I invest?
Yup, buy one lol, does make sense having a sensor thats reads what is actually happening instead of reading something completely different dont it ?
Not had any problems with mine and a mate has one also with a single and no problems, if anything you\'ll have more power and more of a safety margin :) you are more likely to run lean with the original temp sensor.....
Highly recommended!!! It\'s give you air temps not Uim temps!!! :)
Quote from: SmbFD3S;663425Yup, buy one lol, does make sense having a sensor thats reads what is actually happening instead of reading something completely different dont it ?
Oh I know what the logic is behind them, and what they should do, I just wanted to see if these particular ones were any good or a bit toss :D
Quote from: SiH;663438Oh I know what the logic is behind them, and what they should do, I just wanted to see if these particular ones were any good or a bit toss :D
Its a high quality product that is selling worldwide without any warranty returns to date.
In other words. Not toss. :2Mad
Regards, Jonathan
Yes, but you\'re selling them :D.
I\'m not saying they are toss at all, In fact I\'m probably going to buy one, I was looking for impartial thoughts, and with all due respect, you know as well as I do that a vendor probably is n\'t the best person to get an impartial opinion from :)
I\'m not slating your produt in any way, I\'m just a naturally sceptical person :D
si i have one, replaced my broken stock one, works well does what it says on the tin no complaints from me :)
Quote from: SiH;663446Yes, but you\'re selling them :D.
I\'m not saying they are toss at all, In fact I\'m probably going to buy one, I was looking for impartial thoughts, and with all due respect, you know as well as I do that a vendor probably is n\'t the best person to get an impartial opinion from :)
I\'m not slating your produt in any way, I\'m just a naturally sceptical person :D
I\'m always sceptical as well, especially when parts are sold on forums.:) If you do decide to purchase, they are cheaper direct, £25, as Ebay and Paypal take around 15%. Send an email to Jonathan@fennelldevelopments.co.uk.
Been happy with mine. Been a fit and forget really !
Shaun
Have any of you moved to a more agressive map on the back of the RIAT, as the write up suggests you can?
If not, have you noticed any difference in measured (dyno) or percieved performance as a result of the ECU reacting quicker to temperature and therefore mass air flow changes?
put mine in back in august and no problems, tbh havent noticed a jot of a difference but the map is the same and it does seem to be a worthwhile mod scientifically, so to speak. the only modification i could suggest is sourcing some proper connectors if they\'re still available so it is properly plug & play.
Quote from: ashc;663710put mine in back in august and no problems, tbh havent noticed a jot of a difference but the map is the same and it does seem to be a worthwhile mod scientifically, so to speak. the only modification i could suggest is sourcing some proper connectors if they\'re still available so it is properly plug & play.
I\'m still humming and hawing about it for that reason. Happy to punt £30 or whatever, but can I be bothered with messing about fitting something which may or may not make a real-world difference? (I fully accept the scientific reasoning by the way, but if the bum-dyno can\'t feel it, what\'s the point?)
i just figured a 15 yr old sensor had got to be poor compared to a new one, it would be bad if this one broke!
Quote from: Aubec;663716I\'m still humming and hawing about it for that reason. Happy to punt £30 or whatever, but can I be bothered with messing about fitting something which may or may not make a real-world difference? (I fully accept the scientific reasoning by the way, but if the bum-dyno can\'t feel it, what\'s the point?)
When your tips fracture due to detonation you wallet-dyno will feel it :rollin
Quote from: ashc;663823i just figured a 15 yr old sensor had got to be poor compared to a new one, it would be bad if this one broke!
same reason i bought one (also, because it looks really nice sitting on a table and not fitted to a car :2Rolleyes).
i figure the more rubbishy 16 year old parts i can replace the better, OEM or uprated.
Quote from: jackaleks;663883i figure the more rubbishy 16 year old parts i can replace the better, OEM or uprated.
Word :Thumbs-up
Jonathan - Email sent :D
my stock one had stopped working, i phoned a few places to see if i could get a replacement, and most places wanted 20 quid plus postage for one to be sent to me and that was second hand... for the little bit extra i thought why not... it works alot faster, can see that on the power fc... and speaking to people like dragon they said they were defo worth it!
Do you probably have a picture of that sensor?
Quote from: Jonathan_F;663878When your tips fracture due to detonation you wallet-dyno will feel it :rollin
My wallet-dyno has a pretty cavalier attitude to that kind of thing. Not frightened of the engine going bang, it\'ll be a good excuse to rebuild, port and go single :D
I\'ll probably do it when I get around to removing the air pump - I\'ll replace the vac lines with viton hose at the same time.
Quote from: ACCR;667015Do you probably have a picture of that sensor?
Here you go
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250569999798&ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT
Quote from: Aubec;667044My wallet-dyno has a pretty cavalier attitude to that kind of thing. Not frightened of the engine going bang, it\'ll be a good excuse to rebuild, port and go single :D
I\'ll probably do it when I get around to removing the air pump - I\'ll replace the vac lines with viton hose at the same time.
Like it. I had the same attitude when I got my first rex. I actually wanted to blow it so that I could rebuild it. When the money and time had been invested I felt differently. Didn\'t stop me spanking it to 9000rpm though.:3gears-rh
is this properly plug and play or does it involve butchering the loom? does it screw into the stock location properly or require re tapping?
Quote from: m4drx;670047is this properly plug and play or does it involve butchering the loom? does it screw into the stock location properly or require re tapping?
Hi, the sensor uses the same thread but you will need to solder the new loom supplied into your harness. There is heatshrink supplied to make this a clean job. Unfortunately the plug mazda used is no longer supported so it wasn\'t possible to make it plug and play.
If you don\'t have a soldering iron I could supply crimp joints, just add a comment to your Ebay order, or email me direct if you want a MRC discount £25. Jon
jonathan you have email
cheers
Mat
Hi Mat,
I have emailed direct as well. The best way to buy these is on ebay now. I send them out within two working days when I can. Yours will be expedited now I know your short of time. Link below:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250603571985&ssPageName=ADME:L:EOISSA:GB:1123
Regards, and good luck.
Jonathan
Just saw this thread. Not sure if it was mentioned yet or not, but a guy in the US is selling these with a Plug n Play harness. My buddies and I all run these fast IAT sensors, makes a big difference. Mapping is easier and it\'s definitely a world of a difference in reaction speed. My stock sensor would heat soak and take like 10 mins to come back down to the proper temperature. The fast one changes within seconds.
EDIT: here is the link if for the PNP sensor.
http://www.wannaspeed.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=83_158_162&products_id=180
Hi, while we are on this topic again, I met a fellow RX7 owner at LeMans this month and the topic of these sensors came up as I shamelessly took the oppourtunity to try and make a sale. He had the impression that changing the sensor only allowed you to see what was going on more clearly with inlet temperatures. I\'d like to make it clear that this sensor is one of the primary inputs that the ECU uses to calculate fuelling and timing. Continuing to use the standard sensor really hampers your ECU\'s ability to calculate what is best. A bit like having the MAP sensor reading the pressure down a 30m roll of tube.
And remember, when your sensors heatsoaked, your cars overfuelling and retarded - so costing more to drive and emitting noxious fumes.
And can you believe someones made a plug and play sensor kit now? I must have 800 sensors left...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250671072082&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT
just a passing thought.
iirc there are some other cars that require a fd ait to work with a d-jetro pfc.
think sr20det (s13, s14) need them also so worth looking into it if it helps you shift some of the 800 odd you have left :)
HTH
Do we still get a discount on the reduced sale price matey?? :P
Are these still available?
Yes Wannaspeed.com sells the sensors. The owner is real cool, always answers questions I have
Great thanks