can any one tell me how much work is involved in putting in a 3 rotor engine.
i know the inlet manafold etc
but more structurley
do the engine mounts have to be moved?
what else needs to be relocated etc
or is it fairly simple?
cheers sam
Call Carl, he offers this conversion. Pricey but makes for some good bhp....
Bulla
ask 20B_Boy. All I know its goning to cost you in a region of 20k at least.
You have modify the subframe, modify transmission tunnel to move the engine back to keep the 50:50 weight distribution, custom exhaust manifold, rewire the electrics,standalone ECU, modify the propshaft. I know of three 20b conversions here and they have at least taken over a year to complete.
So NO in answer to your question its not fairly simple
i am just intrested as i know of someone that might be willing to sell a 20b engine but if it is that much work then i might just see if he will rebuild me one of the 13b\'s he has lying around.
can anyone tell me is a 13b a 13b in the sence of, for the rx7 did they make a different casing so that it could be mounted etc. engine mounts etc. or should a 13b no matter what car it is in be the same?
can anyone post some pics of a stripperd down engine so that i can send them to him to check they are identical.
cheers sam
if its going into an FD make sure its the 13B REW version of the engine, as the 13BT for the FC3S has loads of difference eg port size, rotors. So the 13B REW is the better spec engine and has more HP pontential, unless he has a 13B cosmo engine then you will be very lucky
Ok, the main diffrences in the 13b\'s is the way there mounted, The engine mounts are all diffrent. A 13bt and a 13b-re are the closest as they are both mounted of the rear plate (just the Engines where made for diffrent Roles so the Port Runners are larger etc for better Torque on the 13b-re) The 13b-Rew from the Fd is center Mounted so it would take a bit of work to put an Fd engine in a Second gen for example.
BUT!!!! If you do your Home work you can make a Hybrid, A mixture of the best bits from the 13b\'s.
Quote from: D1 WTFcan any one tell me how much work is involved in putting in a 3 rotor engine.
i know the inlet manafold etc
but more structurley
do the engine mounts have to be moved?
what else needs to be relocated etc
or is it fairly simple?
cheers sam
Talk to Pip at WGT, hes done a few now, You may have seen his old T2 Race car.
Putting a Triple in a Rx7 is\'nt as hard as it sounds, its been done so many times you can buy the bits like subframes from the US but its like anything the Bits and knolage is there if you have the money to do it.
Don\'t do it.... You\'ll find it a LOT harder than you may think at first and the result will still never be a quicker car point to point than a well sorted 13b would be in the first place!
Miguel
Or you could just buy a nice Cosmo 20B. ;)
Fish
Comes down to very deep pockets, I have only seen one 20b FD convertion, wasnt that quick on the strip, then again that was two years ago and things have moved on, I know of a \'few\' convertions that are in progress atm, be interesting to see how they perform once compleated, if you are going for it .... best of luck, but be prepared for MASSIVE budget hikes. Not a cheap convertion, just about everything has to be changed.
well that is cool. just inquiring. i dont have any where near the funds necessary at the sound of it. perhaps i will just wait for my engine to gives up and then go to town on the 13b (funds depending) although it would be nice to have a spare engine ready to drop in.
Well my one should be done very very soon! :Hammer
you got a date yet Norm, we\'ve been waitin ages.......... although i do know what has to go into these things
Any idea what sort of power you hope to see?
:3gears-rh
28th May , seen the Turbo, and even got some pics but don\'t know how to put them up on the site. Also have some nice pics of the manifold, and dump valve, they are monsters. Was up there at WGT\'s new site on Tuesday this week, as they were completing the gear box **** loads of work has gone on. Mod on the whole back end of the gear box and selector arm attached to selector box. mods done to bell housing, prop, powerplant, the list goes on and on, all one off fabrications, but the standard of work is spot on ( it\'s gonna be one mother of a car ) All I need to do then is sort the interior out, it\'s ok but not as nice we would all like. it can wait a while. I have a nice covered trialer for it now to live in which Pip is doing up a bit to look like a WGT sponsored race trailer. Then we can go off around the old EU to some of the nice car shows, if I can find out where and when they are. Any help would be good on that one! :Thumbsup!
28th May, so it will be at RS3 then?
Sorry but it will not be there this year.
Why ? We are going abroad, and the car is going to LeMans with us on a trailer.
Anyone want the same conversion it\'s around £26000.00 so Pip says! ouch!!!!
Sad but true!
Woah, that\'s a hell of a lot of money. What is the benefit in doing this conversion over spending 20k on a 13b?
Quote from: JakeWoah, that\'s a hell of a lot of money. What is the benefit in doing this conversion over spending 20k on a 13b?
Ask the question.................... How many 3 rotor FD\'s do you see? It is an awsome conversion but, alot of work, the gains ....... It is a total show stopper, the torque is phenominal, dont think there is much out there to touch it.
Spend 20K on a 13b, you would get the bhp but not the torque but it would be a well sorted car.
All comes down to what you want, as an engineering exercise the 20b is the way to go, if you have that deeper pockets to do it right.
Think there maybe one or 2 supprises @ RS111 :cool
or for half the price whack a ls1/6 speed box 25mpg and shedloads of torque..dont see many of them either
Yes it\'s monster job. some big B-spoke engineering work has gone on. I don\'t want to count the cost of it all but pip has done me a big ass favour by Sponsoring it to the tune of thousands, as it was his first proper road use 20B conversion. We have gone through the brakes, instruments, b-spoke radiator, gearbox, cooling system, fuel system, Exhaust manifold, engine mounts, breaded hoses, the list goes on and on. It’s not an easy job even for the mighty Pip Gardener, Hundreds of hours if work. But, as he said, he now has the patterns and knows all the little bad bits, so the next one should not take anywhere near so long. I suppose my one was the experimental version, it’s his prototype. Anyway the nightmare for my pocket is almost over. Yes your right, about the extra pull from the 20B engine, it will rip your face off. Also it is far more reliable with big power, that was why I went for it in the first place. I did not want to keep on paying 10K a time, every year for new engine. :god long live the 20B
I don\'t doubt Pip\'s work, but I\'ve never yet seen a 20B in an FD chassis get particularly good results around a racetrack. Have seen Pan Speed\'s stunningly well prep\'d 550 bhp 13B be 2nd fastest only to an 800 bhp race prepared R32 by Garage Saurus, here in Japan.
Would a 20B be as quick?
Not really...
The only 3 rotor FD that\'s well known in Japan is RE-Amemiya\'s red show car with T78 Turbo. It\'s fast, but not THAT quick!
Although, relatively speaking... FD tuners in Japan generally don\'t fit 3 rotor engines into their cars for circuits and drag racing\'s not that popular in Japan...
Maybe a 20B will be quick as a drag car, but that\'s a waste of an FD chassis.
Just my opinion of course!
If 20B in an FD is your thing, I\'m happy for ya! :D :D :D
Miguel.
You make some interesting points there on the 20B. I don\'t know on the 13B or the 20B thing. BUT! (if sorted correctly) a 13B will never match the pull of the 20B. As also said, 13B will go pop pulling 550 BHP (probably) far far quicker than the 550BHP 120B engine would. It seems the main place for the 20B conversions in the FD are Aus, and the USA. There are a few very well sorted ones out there. Anyway I hope my thing should be putting out around 620BHP which is still not stressing the thing too much. The US LeMans race venue has a number LMP1 prototype 20B cars racing in it, has been for the last 2 or 3 years, and they have done very very well. Most are pushing well over 700BHP for over 12 hours without going POP! As Pip says, it\'s not too bad to stuff a 20B into an FD, but to maintain the 50/50 balance and still do it is another thing. The other aspect is the running and setup of the car. most find it very very hard to sort out. Take poor old Carl and his 4 rotor, he is still working on the monster. 3 and 4 rotor engines are sods to set up to run nice and smooth. Carl would agree with that one, ask him. But as we say, when they are sorted, they are total beasts. Sorry but for me, take a well tuned 13B pulling 5 to 600BHP and it would not last a hart beat against a similar level tuned 20B which would be outputting near 900BHP or more.
For my money, the 13B engine ( for road use and a life of at least 70K) is only good for around 400 to 450BHP. If you go too much above that with them they die very very quick, I know, cos I have done it. My thing should last 80 to 90K even with around 600BHP thats for me is upside of the 20B engine. And of course that massive pull! :yes
Isn\'t RE- Amemiya\'s Asparadrink GT300 RX-7 a N/A 3-rotor? Must be a reason why they use the 3-rotor engine,torque,reliabilty etc...
Norm
Sounds like yours will be well a well sorted conversion, what kind of boost you hoping to run?
I would like to see what Torque Kev Yorks car puts out.... anyone know?
The supercharged 20b FD we have has no more Torque than my 13b at the moment although its still in the early stages of tuning and mine was running less boost.
With ECU\'s ready made for the 20b, setting up is no different to a 13b, plug and play, although you may have to make your own loom as you would for a 13b with a microtec or motec. Carls beast is a different kettle of fish completely
I hate to be brutally honest here but i dont think you will see 70k miles on a stock 20b let alone one with 600 plus BHP. Our stock cosmo died of natural causes at 55k. You got to remember that all the componants are identical in the 20b as they are for the 13b except the eccentric shaft is in 2 pieces and longer which is why they take a little more work to make them high rev, same rotors, seals, springs and housings etc doing the same revolutions as a 13b, so why should it last longer? (based on the same tuning)
It will obviosly have more power than a 13b running the same porting and boost as the engine is 50% bigger. So your right when you say a 13b running the same power as a 20 b will go pop sooner cos it has to run more boost to match the power.
You also wont see 70k out of a 13b with 450 bhp, more like 25k.... if i\'m lucky
Not on a full tune yet Tony but at the mo its 380ft/lb@0.94bar.
Kevin
I love the idea of the 3-rotor conversion - it\'s just stunning but it\'s not a rational choice - it\'s more a labour of love!
For the price you could do a very high-revving 13b - it\'d have a huge advantage round track letting you stay in gear longer. You could also run it at high-boost mapped safely. I\'d love one.
It still wouldn\'t be a 20b though.
I\'ve often wondered if a n/a 20b would be feasible for ultimate reliability and brappy power..?
Other alternatives would be to use some of the custom sandwiches from Oz - close to the length of the 13b but triple rotor. Mmmmm. But you\'d pay for it.
Normski - will you be at Le Mans for the 24 hours? If so I\'d love to catch up with you and have a nose round El Beast.
Iain
thats pretty good going, ours is 320 ish (iirc) at 0.8, what sort of rpm is that?, i was suprised how high up the rev band the torque was on ours. But then there must be a reason Mazda put twins on it as standard, it increased the torque on the 13b.
Do you think you will lose torque by removing the exhaust sleeves? we removed ours but couldnt comapre it to its previous state.
Quote from: normskiMy thing should last 80 to 90K even with around 600BHP thats for me is upside of the 20B engine.
Thats scary! :-O
He, he - Nice to have an intelligent conversation here...:D :D
The 20b is 33% larger than the 13b, 3 rotors against 2 (Not 50%).
I guess there\'s a point, yes - 600 bhp is easier to make reliably with a 20b than a 13b. Can\'t dispute that :driving
The difficulty people have with these in Aus, is weight balance. Without knocking out some of the bulkhead and moving the engine back, you\'re going to have too much weight over the front of the cross member, resulting in an upset of the 50/50 weight balance an FD\'s mostly unique for.
Also there has to be a strong cradle to stop the engine from twisting itself. This is fitted in the 20b but won\'t fit in a 13b - so something has to be made up, and the list goes on and on.
Sorted 20b FD\'s may exist in the States & in Aus, but they\'re countries where drag\'s the big thing, usually... Not so in Japan. Drag\'s kinda that way in the UK to a smaller extent, but hopefully time-attack will gain popularity. Driving properly and high speed handlings is what the FD\'s all about for - to me, anyways... :3gears-lh
Tuned 20b\'s do sound awesome in anger though. I\'m not sure I\'d want 600 bhp in a car like this if the handling was compromised and the cost was so high to make, but if it\'s a well sorted reliable well handling car, that\'s going to come out (If anyone in the UK can do it, it\'ll be Pip, IMHO!) - then it\'ll be very special.
Say for example it did cost £20K for the 20b conversion... How many rebuilds could you do with that much money on a 13b... 4-6, depending on the extent of failure, roughly? Say you watched compression closely - you could re-fresh when due...
Or spend the £20K on something else that\'s interesting, such as a V-Tec powered Aerial Atom....Maybe you could find a used one of those. Power / weight ratio\'s SICK!!
But getting back to rotaries - Le Mans cars can\'t be compared to road cars - period. :King
One other well known UK tuner of rotaries tried making a 20b FD 4 years ago, for a customer whose car we supplied. The 20b was fitted with an undersized turbo, plus had no cradle, the results were an unreliable engine at best which had 3 rebuilds (not by the same tuner, I might add!) before the owner sold it on. It was some 4 years ago when the tuner had much less experience, but it demonstrated how things shouldn\'t be done. :3Confused :2Confused :2Confused
Looking forward to seeing this project. Are there any pics of the build? Would love to see them :)! :yes :Thumbsup!
Miguel.
Hi Miguel,
how are you doing?
just a couple of points, the 20b is 50 % bigger than a 13b, but the 13b is 33% smaller than the 20b, 50% of 2 rotors is 1 rotor, add that to the 2 and you have 3....... not easy to explain but i tried....... :xconfused :xconfused
The 20 b we have is fitted well back and the front of the engine block is in the same place as a 13b if not further back.
We just bolted the whole cosmo subframe on the front of the FD so the engine uses the stock mounts etc is obviously as strong as stock. The cosmos, like the FD has a complete self contain suspension set up, so the geometry is set up regardless of whre you bolt it on the car. We didnt have to cut the bulk head out we just modified its shape a little............... with a hammer, but i have seen the bulk head cut out on others. Ours and the other that i have seen both have the engine sat further back, you obviously have to modify the prop and move the gear change point in the gear box so the lever remains in the same position in the car which isnt actually too difficult.
I assume your talking about the pink FD which roundabout owned. Thats been very quiet.
I agree that you cant compare le man cars to stock cars though, i think they coated the housings in something and may have used different tips but dont hold me to that.
Saying all that, i personally would prefer a 13b with good power, the fuel economy of a ported 20 b is painfull and the power people are getting from 13bs at low boost is phenomanal unless you have an all out drag car of course, (the one i refer to is my cousins car by the way)
Tony torque rises steeply up to 4800rpm its a flat line then to 5800rpm then drops of slowly from there. As regards the sleeves when i remove them i\'ll be porting as well so like you won\'t get a figure for sleeve removal only. All being well the plan is to pull the engine at the end of the year for a precautionary strip down port and sleeve removal.
Kevin
You can buy from racing beat ali ends which will make the 20b pretty much the same weight as a stock 13b, Im amazed that they are not racing more of them because of the obvious advantage, cant see how 2 cars same wieght but one with a 20b would be slower??
I think maybe next year we will see if the 20b in a FD is a worthwhile cause in this country, the 13b has made MASSIVE improvements over the last year or so, if you think about it +400atw for a FD at that time was pretty much a dream, now, it is not that unusual - life span? that is another story, I recon running 1bar+boost at that level of power an engine refresh will be needed every 1 - 2 years and I would assume with a 20b it would be pretty much the same. Yes, you can run them into the gound and watch your bhp / torque drop with the milage.
You have to remember these engines were built to run 220ish day in day out till they died [50 - 80K miles] double the power and wear will increase by 150%+ or more.
Which ever way you get to that sort of power you need to factor in MUCH higher maintenance costs.
Well if your right about the life of the engine,which I hope not, I will be doing around 3 for 4 K a year in it so it should last Quite a while anyway. Pip is hoping to pull over 400FT/T out of my thing but we will see: I think it\'s true to say, it\'s going to be big anyway. I am hoping to give the enzo\'s, Zonda\'s of this World a bloody good run for their money, if what Pip says is true.
Only a couple of weeks to wait and see time.
I think that sort of power is well over the top for road use anyway, 99.9% of the time you just can\'t use it far too much punch, but as they say it\'s nice to know it\'s there if you want it ( I hope) :Thumbs-up
Quote from: iaintI love the idea of the 3-rotor conversion - it\'s just stunning but it\'s not a rational choice - it\'s more a labour of love!
For the price you could do a very high-revving 13b - it\'d have a huge advantage round track letting you stay in gear longer. You could also run it at high-boost mapped safely. I\'d love one.
It still wouldn\'t be a 20b though.
I\'ve often wondered if a n/a 20b would be feasible for ultimate reliability and brappy power..?
Other alternatives would be to use some of the custom sandwiches from Oz - close to the length of the 13b but triple rotor. Mmmmm. But you\'d pay for it.
Normski - will you be at Le Mans for the 24 hours? If so I\'d love to catch up with you and have a nose round El Beast.
Iain
We will be at LeMans this year, At the Expo site right opposite the mad Bar/or pub, just up from the bridge and main entrance to the track. if that makes sense to those who know the track. Look for the big Motorhome and Marcos cars right by the fence. See you there.
Quote from: normskiWe will be at LeMans this year, At the Expo site right opposite the mad Bar/or pub, just up from the bridge and main entrance to the track. if that makes sense to those who know the track. Look for the big Motorhome and Marcos cars right by the fence. See you there.
:cheers :3gears-lh
Quote from: iaintI love the idea of the 3-rotor conversion - it\'s just stunning but it\'s not a rational choice - it\'s more a labour of love!
For the price you could do a very high-revving 13b - it\'d have a huge advantage round track letting you stay in gear longer. You could also run it at high-boost mapped safely. I\'d love one.
It still wouldn\'t be a 20b though.
I\'ve often wondered if a n/a 20b would be feasible for ultimate reliability and brappy power..?
Other alternatives would be to use some of the custom sandwiches from Oz - close to the length of the 13b but triple rotor. Mmmmm. But you\'d pay for it.
Normski - will you be at Le Mans for the 24 hours? If so I\'d love to catch up with you and have a nose round El Beast.
Iain
The BEST sounding road use N/A rotary I\'ve ever heard was Scoot\'s - derived of 2 x 12A\'s. Stunning sound, making around 500 bhp. Sadly, being a one off engine - it hasn\'t been reliable... but had it been made from a 20b, it probably would be.
Glen Butcher\'s race car project will hopefully be completed someday, that should be a demonstration of how to make a pukka N/A rotary, albeit for track use...
I remember having a stock 20b Cosmo for a few weeks before it was sold to Stephen Butcher (Glen\'s Brother) and became one of the first Cosmo JCESE\'s in the UK about 5 years ago... I loved the torque and the silky whallop it had.
I think iaint has hit the nail on the head above.
Miguel.
I think the noise is out of this World from the 20B with a screemer pipe on it. As far a weight placement goes, That is one of the the things Pip has been working so hard to get right. This 50/50 placement. Althought not exactly the same as the 13B setup, it is as near as he can get it which is around 49.5%./50.05% which is good enough for me it\'s not balls out track car, and hope it never will be. Get it clear here it\'s used on the road. All these Top gear style test are on airfileds with only fresh air coming in the opposite direction, Not sod off great trucks. Lets face it, who drives cars to there absolute limit as they do on test tracks. I reckon you do that with my thing ( on the public road, and A, you will get stuffed in the nut house, thats if you don\'t kill yourself first, which is more the probable outcome. For road use, these type of machines need ultimate respect or they will kill you stone cold dead! As they say theres a time and a place!
Not sure but I think he has managed to shift the whole thing back around 6 inches without messing with the bulkhead. Done by gearbox mods, and bellhousing mods. The only thing I am not looking forward to is the new clutch, in or out. Deep joy! great in a jam A! twinplate system as single system is just not up to the job.
Still keeping my Aquamist system onboard and I hope to get some nice Defi Guages on the dash, get rid of that A/piller pod, Guages did not work anyway. Engine block and gearbox/prop, should in car by around Mon or Tuesday this week. Then it\'s all those nice little silly bits which make it all work. I HOPE! :evillaugh
Quote from: normskiI think the noise is out of this World from the 20B with a screemer pipe on it. As far a weight placement goes, That is one of the the things Pip has been working so hard to get right. This 50/50 placement. Althought not exactly the same as the 13B setup, it is as near as he can get it which is around 49.5%./50.05% which is good enough for me it\'s not balls out track car, and hope it never will be. Get it clear here it\'s used on the road. All these Top gear style test are on airfileds with only fresh air coming in the opposite direction, Not sod off great trucks. Lets face it, who drives cars to there absolute limit as they do on test tracks. I reckon you do that with my thing ( on the public road, and A, you will get stuffed in the nut house, thats if you don\'t kill yourself first, which is more the probable outcome. For road use, these type of machines need ultimate respect or they will kill you stone cold dead! As they say theres a time and a place!
Not sure but I think he has managed to shift the whole thing back around 6 inches without messing with the bulkhead. Done by gearbox mods, and bellhousing mods. The only thing I am not looking forward to is the new clutch, in or out. Deep joy! great in a jam A! twinplate system as single system is just not up to the job.
Still keeping my Aquamist system onboard and I hope to get some nice Defi Guages on the dash, get rid of that A/piller pod, Guages did not work anyway. Engine block and gearbox/prop, should in car by around Mon or Tuesday this week. Then it\'s all those nice little silly bits which make it all work. I HOPE! :evillaugh
Well said that man! The sound is somethink else but more for the benefit of other\'s you\'ll be passing Normski. Screemer pipe doesn\'t come into play that much to be honest Normski as there arn\'t the roads to keep it up on boost for any length of time in this country, 10secs max and you\'ll be lifting of or cruising. Mine is running a 55/45 front to back weight split now after all the mods with no detriment to handing. As for the twin plate you\'ll get used to it, i\'ve found about 1200rpm works with mine from standstill but make sure its clear in front of you when you release the pedal.
Kevin
Am I right in thinking you have a sorted FD with a 20B under the hood ? :god
Quote from: normskiNot sure but I think he has managed to shift the whole thing back around 6 inches without messing with the bulkhead. Done by gearbox mods, and bellhousing mods.
Are you using a sheet-metal intake manifold/plenum? cause the gear box isnt really an issue when u move it backwards - its the height of the stock plenum (hits b/head) that stops you going backwards unless u lower the block about 4"\'s from recollection...
What ecu are u using Norm?
Pass, old mate, best person th ask at this time Pip. I think he dropped the engine although I would not put my life on that one.
How is yours going ? I thought your Ft/T would have been over 400 by now. Have you upgraded that Turbo yet ? :driving
Quote from: normskiAm I right in thinking you have a sorted FD with a 20B under the hood ? :god
Look at his avatar... Cosmo!
Quote from: iaintLook at his avatar... Cosmo!
Are so it,s a Cosmo, not an FD, Where is the link to the pics. ???? :WaveBye
Awesome.I love reading about projects like this. Hadn\'t imagined so much effort would be required for this conversion, i\'d always imagined this transplant to be a case of \'one in, one out\'!! How wrong could i be!!
Excellent to see that you are factoring in the balance of the weight distribution...FDs are one of the few cars that can genuinely boast this feature (unlike many modern cars who, after independent testing, are found out to be telling porkies!!) and it would be a great shame to compromise the balance.
One thing i was wondering about, having just been out in a car with approximately 380lb/ft (not an FD mind) is do you have any kind of traction/stability control aside from your right foot? Otherwise the onset of torque may make the car very very hard to keep in check. And power is nothing without control, as they say.
I wonder if this is what makes the 13B a popular choice for tuners in Japan, the engine is torquey enough to pull nicely through the rev range but the real power comes higher up, after the car has the full benefit of traction. Nothing is more annoying than watching a \'slower\' car pull away as you struggle and struggle for grip. I\'m sure once you find it the car will, if your suggested spec is anything to go by, be a very good match for the Enzo\'s of this world (but where to find them??!) but remember that thing is more like a computer on wheels than a sports car...um no offence to any Ferrari owners/fans...just an opinion!
Ummm! I think you make some very good points there. I reckon I will for sure suffer traction problems. And yes, for over 300K for an Enzo, compaired to my thing it will be a super computer on wheels. and will although, my balance is good leave me for dust on a race track, due to the spacecraft computer system on board. But as said before, In a real World road situation 99% of the time I don\'t think cars like these will ever shack it off, they are both just far far too fast for their top end attributes to displayed ( on a public road) they will/are Warp drive machines. Leave the High def handeling stuff to the rally boys.
Pip is hoping to drive it down to rotostock on the Monday to rack up a few miles and test it out ( if it\'s ready) But I am very sorry to say the nice Braided hose thing, and Electric water pump will not be in the car. ( it\'s a time thing) Ho, he has had the time to do it,s just, shall we say, been missmanged a little. So I am looking forward to seeing it running, but, as nice as I can be, a liitle unhappy it\'s not as we agreed. To me the car has been sat far far far too long for periods with alomst nothing happening to it. Now it\'s turned into one of those 11.30 hours jobs. For me not good! :Hammer
The, bit\'s have been made, and thought about, so in that sense, it\'s not rushed. It\'s all those last little bit\'s which could have been done months ago to save this last min quick qiuck thing. I have counted around 60 weeks the car has been there. Sorry, I don\'t care how complex the job. It does not take 60 weeks to do, if the job is paced out correctly. But, what can I do, I have to suffer the situation. But time wise It could have been handled much much better. :Typing I just Hope it\'s something very very special. It should be!!!!!
Only observation I will make your post Normski is maybe you should have involved yourself some more and chivvyed Pip along a bit, you know what these engine builders/ Tuners are like, to many projects on the go and not enough hours in the day!
Quote from: normskiSorry, I don\'t care how complex the job. It does not take 60 weeks to do, if the job is paced out correctly.
Like EVERY THING in life - it takes as long as it takes. The best laid plans and all that. This sort of job is bound to have involved contractors outside of WGT\'s control to do or supply odd (but vital) bits and bobs which may delay other majors parts of the project being continued. More often than not a company will tell you they can make some thing in 2 wks but actually take 4 wks. Or they dont come up with the goods at all after 5 wks of u chasing them everyday and in the end u give up and find some one else to do the work. Seriously, if you wanted the car back in a month you shouldve stuck with a 13B cause things NEVER happen in any time scale you might originally have foreseen. A wise man on this forum once said to me about a single turbo conversion: budget 30% more than your worst case cost estimate and 30% longer than your worst case timescale estimate :P
Hope you are nearing the finishing straight now anyway Normski. I know you must be frustrated as hell but I\'m sure Pip is as keen as you to get it up and at them :P
:2eek Again: Sorry to say 20B I think you could have a point or two there. But, come on 60 weeks. I have been given 3 or 4 dates as you all know Christmass 05 has come and gone, March 06 has come and gone. I am not the one who gave the dates. I just said last year it must be done for the April ( ish) 06 period as it\'s the beginning of the car seasons. I True or not I don\'t know, But he was the one who has said thing s (have happened) Like the rad was completed. and the engine would be in by next Monday/Tuesday sort of thing. then when you speak to them a week later, they say we have still to put the engine in. So, reasonable question ( WHY ?)
Other factors: my old bits, have been rebuild, sold and installed into another RX7 and been running around for the past 4 to 6 months. Other quite big jobs have come in and gone out. And still my thing stis there. For my money, the time issue ie time to do the job is/was plenty. Pip with all his experience would know, all the potential gremlin problems which could occur, this car should have been where it is now 6 to 8 weeks ago. Hence my point on time management. We would then not have this jumping around like some mad flea situation we have now. It\'s stress all round, could have been avoided thats all. We are off abroad, as said on the 3rd June, if it\'s not right or ont done, I will encure around £500.00 extra costs to come back and collect it ( who wants that ?) :Grrr
You must be really bummed...but every cloud has a silver lining and for you it\'s the thought of driving and owning a 20B-powered FD. You know the old adage about good things coming to those who wait...
I would have to agree on the time management, and having collection dates come and go must be frustrating...reminds me of a scene from Friends where Rachel is due her baby and numerous other women arrive at the hospital later and have their babies sooner!!
Having said that, regardless of Pip\'s experience a job like this is always going to throw up unexpected gremlins...although if i\'m brutally honest it does sound like your beast hasn\'t been the priority it should have been, and as a result now everyone is feeling the stress.
It\'s a great shame but only a temporary set back, after all you\'ve been waiting a long long time...what\'s another week or two if the car is going to be running great when you do finally have her back? :p
It\'s very true about not being able to use the car to its fullest extent in everyday use. But then it\'s not an everyday car now, is it?! I reckon you\'ll just be content to use 1st, 2nd and 5th for a long time, just cruise along on a wave of torque. Bet the first time you drop a cog and floor it will be a moment to remember!!!
Just count yourself lucky Pip and Dave are not charging you for all the man hours and bespoke engineering work for this job or you\'d be looking at a huge bill.I think Pip & Dave have been top banana for agreeing to help you out by sponsoring alot of the engineering work.Hope Pip does\'nt see this post as I guess he\'d be a little miffed about you complaining about timescales on the MRC. Due to WGT\'s sponsorship of the conversion and it\'s bespoke nature it will always take longer than forseen,don\'t forget their day to day commitents like common garden rebuilds and general servicing etc,so the 20B monster will be fitted in were possible.I\'m sure they\'ll get there in the end though and you\'ll be more than happy with the result.....!
he wont be that miffed - id know where to go if i wanted a 20b conversion!
I reckon /no, hope your right I have never driven anything like what this is going to be. 400 /450BHP yes, even some big 1100 cc jap bikes, but nothing like a 600 ish BHP car. when it was running the 13B with around 420BHP it was a monster. so at this time can\'t imagine what it\'s going to be like. No idea what so ever ( any ideas) Please write in! :flamed
Only speculation but i\'m guessing 600+bhp in a car weighing <1300kg with little traction control (by modern standards) will feel bonkers!!
Probably find 1st and 2nd will be spent with the back squirming all over the road desperately trying to find traction, the 3rd will feel crazy fast...and then all of a sudden towards the end of 3rd (maybe even into 4th) you will find full traction and will probably be in pain from being slammed backwards with such force!!! From there it\'ll just be a matter of the Gs increasing until you just can\'t take it and change up for a brief respite, before flooring it again at which point the whole process begins anew.
And that\'s to say nothing of the soundtrack that will be accompanying all this mayhem. I am sure that afterwards you will feel it was worth every penny and extra worry line, and also that nothing is quicker!!
On a serious note, i think it\'ll be a case of running through a check list before you can even think of opening her up...is there another car within 2 miles of me, is there a corner within the next 1000 metres, did i have curry within the last 24 hours, etc etc. And if the answer to any of the above is \'Yes\' you must cease and desist immediately!!!! :D