Mazda Rotary Club

General => General Technical => Topic started by: matrx7 on April 28, 2006, 05:19:17 PM

Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: matrx7 on April 28, 2006, 05:19:17 PM
Hello

How much power can you get from a twin turbo setup??

Reason is i was looking to sell my rex, but hopefully!!!!!!!!!! now i can keep it ££££££!!!!!

Ive done the exhaust, air filter, pfc, boost controller and it is running 277rwhp at about .8 bar.

Whats my next step??

Intercooler,
porting,
hybrid turbos??? etc

Before you say single turbo, too much money!!!!!!!!!!!

If anyone can help thanks.

If you cant, bugger.

Mat
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: sdminus on April 28, 2006, 05:26:41 PM
Intercooler , bigger injectors, better fuel pump, possibly a modded fuel rail, more boost, Remap, Water/alch injection etc etc.


I have seen twins up 400whp. the limit of the seq turbos is about 380whp roughly if you check the compressor map.

sdminus@yahoo.co.uk if you need any help

Scott
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: maximtaylor on April 28, 2006, 05:28:34 PM
You should see around 320 reasonably easily. Some of the modifications you need will be reliability based rather that power.

Intercooler
Cold Plugs
Good leads
Porting
Fuel pump
Bigger injectors
HKS Twinpower
Clutch (it\'ll need it very soon if its not already uprated).

If you can\'t afford a single turbo, then you can\'t really afford to cook your turbo pack, so I\'d keep the boost around 1 bar or just under.

Likewise a hybrid turbo kit, by the time you\'ve messed about with that, then realised it isn\'t much better than the stock twins, you\'ll kick yourself for not gettting a single turbo kit instead!
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: Ada7 on April 28, 2006, 06:11:04 PM
You should speak to Warthog. He\'s go the most power out of his standard twins than anyone else. Over 400bhp iirc
He\'s not on here as much as he was but try PMing him, i\'m sure he\'ll be happy to give you some advice

Adam
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: Oedipus Rex on April 29, 2006, 09:21:42 AM
I was running 327.8 rwhp at .8.

Mods: Street port, straight through, downpipe, filters, uprated intercooler, Apexi ECU and a WGT map.
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: John Yorke on April 29, 2006, 10:45:44 AM
Without frying your turbo\'s you will quite easely see 320ish, the bigger power numbers on twins tend not to last to long.
Realy depends on what you call big power, 300+ is more than ample to scare most other street cars off :)
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: matrx7 on April 29, 2006, 05:21:36 PM
Thanks for your help!!! how much can you get single turbo kits for???? Im guessing around £3000. Where can i get the best price for all the things you have suggested??? i.e Intercooler etc
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: probedb on April 29, 2006, 06:42:03 PM
I think check any of the vendor links at the top and they should be able to sort you out. Failing that ebay or places in the US :)

I\'m doing the same as you and want to stay twins for a long while as single is lots of money.
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: John Yorke on April 30, 2006, 11:03:21 AM
If you dont mind the hassel and are happy to deal with companies abroad, I would try Horsepowerinabox, Austrailian company they sell the complete kit providing different levels of power and depandant on the state of tune your engine is, or you can spec up your own turbo. The good news is that the exchange rate atm is very good, bad news - dont forget to factor in import duty / VAT, postage ect.
If you are determined to go for big power, I would save your pennies, go for a re-build and include a BIG port in the deal, that way you wont find yourself short of puff and on a fresh engine you can expect plenty of trouble free motoring [read ragging :yes ], just bolting on the ancillaries is not the answer, especialy if you are after big numbers. HTH
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: gsb876 on April 30, 2006, 12:07:11 PM
Quote from: matrx7Thanks for your help!!! how much can you get single turbo kits for???? Im guessing around £3000. Where can i get the best price for all the things you have suggested??? i.e Intercooler etc

You can get them for cheaper than that matey, speak with some of the vendors at the top of the page about what they have, you might be suprised what you can afford  :Thumbs-up
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: Rixio on April 30, 2006, 02:04:11 PM
I was only hitting 293whp when i was at Pips on friday. Recond turbos, street port, HKS filters, big HKS front mount, Attain straight through, 3" downpipe, Power FC!

How are you guys hitting 320+!
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: gsb876 on April 30, 2006, 02:52:51 PM
Quote from: RixioI was only hitting 293whp when i was at Pips on friday. Recond turbos, street port, HKS filters, big HKS front mount, Attain straight through, 3" downpipe, Power FC!

How are you guys hitting 320+!

Its because you are a big girl  :rollin  :rollin  :rollin  :Giggle
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: shaunwil on April 30, 2006, 03:17:21 PM
I only saw 301.7 on pips dyno, saw a little more a thor (as did you) so 320 atw isn\'t a big issue. But all i would say is go for the intercooler and bigger injectors first before thinking about going single. At least it will be in a better position when you finally go the whole way. I think with mine i\'ve got original turbos because it runs out of puff at 1 bar and im currently at the stage of looking for a big single. Been taking some serious interest in the GT35r kit from Rx7store too, as said exchange rates are very good at the minute. I\'ve asked if it fits a RHD car and they have said yes ! But all in saying you need to factor in all the bits that the kits don\'t include because they are far from complete.

I\'ve been reading up on http://www.negative-camber.org/crispyrx7/gt35rpage1.htm
and i think you need a budjet of a few hundred quid to sort all the rest out.

Shaun
Title: ..
Post by: GerbilStuntFarm on April 30, 2006, 03:18:31 PM
What boost were you running rix? Sounds like under 1bar? and if Pip tuned it i heard he likes to play it safe with the mapping too but that could just be hearsay?

Matrx, I\'d stick with the twins and aim for 1bar for now, which will mean you can keep the stock injectors and still get good figures without porting, and probably wouldnt need an ignition amp, just uprated fuelling and a large IC, or Charge Cooler, new clutch, and running 10s or colder plugs with good leads. Then when the turbo\'s \'give\' .. look to buying a small to medium single. Might be surprised at how quick the low 300s in these car\'s feel.

Running more than 1.2bar is asking for trouble in my opinion, might look good on the dyno, or the strip, but you\'re dicing with turbo death which is a bit pointless tbh unless you\'re waiting on buying a single and looking for an excuse :)
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: shaunwil on April 30, 2006, 03:20:58 PM
Oh and mines running on completely stock ports on the engine and the turbo !!!

Shaun
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: skybusr34 on April 30, 2006, 03:26:35 PM
im now single, but tbh i still prefer the twin set up.  apart from the screamer pipe.
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: Rixio on April 30, 2006, 04:47:21 PM
I\'l get the dyno graph and post it on dyno graphs/fastest stock twins thread.

How about large twins? Everyone goes for singles, what about uprated large twins?
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: shaunwil on April 30, 2006, 05:56:56 PM
I think the twins would still act like a single turbo, same as the non sequential setup. Plus the cost of two smaller turbos, 2 wastegates, more piping and more complexity is the reason why people go for a single.

Just out of interest could you have two different sized turbos to improve the spool time on mega setups ???

Shaun
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: Rixio on April 30, 2006, 08:15:54 PM
But at least you dont get caught with your pants down, you\'l have at least some punch in the low revs with twins...
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: shaunwil on May 01, 2006, 11:22:31 AM
im not completely sure that you would on non sequential twins, whats the lagg like with them compaired to sequential twins ?

Shaun
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: John Yorke on May 01, 2006, 12:13:26 PM
No real boost till 4+k on non-sequential, seq. you see full boost from 2 -2.5k a big difference, mind when they do come on line it is like a small single :mmmm
Going single is the way forward if you want biggish reliable power.

Shaunwil: I thought yours was ATH?
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: gsb876 on May 01, 2006, 12:34:20 PM
Quote from: John YorkeNo real boost till 4+k on non-sequential, seq. you see full boost from 2 -2.5k a big difference, mind when they do come on line it is like a small single :mmmm
Going single is the way forward if you want biggish reliable power.

Shaunwil: I thought yours was ATH?

Shaun made 321.6 @ Hubs = 376.2 @ Flywheel  :wave
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: John Yorke on May 01, 2006, 01:02:42 PM
Quote from: gsb876Shaun made 321.6 @ Hubs = 376.2 @ Flywheel  :wave

Only noticed the sig. it says atw?
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: gsb876 on May 01, 2006, 01:08:20 PM
Quote from: John YorkeOnly noticed the sig. it says atw?

The figures @ Thor were Hub readings  :Laugh
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: shaunwil on May 01, 2006, 02:33:54 PM
Doh !!!! thought at the hubs and wheels was the same ??? Is there actually a difference ?

I think im going to end up going for a GT35r to get the early spool, but i\'ll probably look for a spare engine to rebuild and streetport.

Shaun
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: John Yorke on May 01, 2006, 02:52:11 PM
As a rule of thumb, -50 fwhp to give hubs, -18% fwhp to give wheels. HTH.
GT35 is a nice quick spooling turbo.......with the right port :cheers
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: shaunwil on May 01, 2006, 03:01:31 PM
The thing is thor had it setup so that it purely measured the hp at the point it was bolted up, there wasn\'t a ratio applied to the result to keep arguements about fwhp down to a minimum so wouldn\'t the result still be the same at the hubs as at the wheels ???

So how would a GT35r spool on stock ports ???

Shaun
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: John Yorke on May 01, 2006, 03:11:12 PM
Hubs and wheels are different because atw has the additional loss of grip, you are turning the wheels /tyres thus frictional loss.
When I was on stock twins I did back to back tests on Abbeys Dynopack and CPL\'s Dynodynamics results were : 346.5 ath @ abbeys and 317.8 atw @ cpl both resulted at near as dam 396fwhp. By the way these tests were carried out on the same day.

Gt35 will spool very well on stock ports, but, I am sure Pip will tell you to get the best out of the 35 you need to match the ports and I am assuming you have all the other mods in place.
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: shaunwil on May 01, 2006, 03:25:38 PM
Blimey can they make it all any more complex :Hammer

I think im getting there for it, Powerfc, Greddy profec B, big FMIC, uprated clutch, uprated fueling, racing plugs, diff brace............

Sorry if this thread has gone a bit off topic !

So looking at your results there is a 9% loss between the hubs and the wheels :eek

Shaun
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: John Yorke on May 01, 2006, 03:47:54 PM
Yup :Giggle if you think about it, you have a common transmision loss, say 9% and the frictional loss, sounds like you have all the mods in place, dependant on your fueling, only thing I would add is a spark amplifier and a bigger rad [singles make alot more heat]
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: shaunwil on May 01, 2006, 03:51:00 PM
Cheers, I\'ll probably do them next then ! Its just a HKS twin spark for the improved spark ??

Shaun
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: gsb876 on May 01, 2006, 04:35:04 PM
Spoke with the tech at Thor and we agreed the hubs to flywheel loss was about 17% thus all Flywheel calculations i did for the Thor day were:

Hubs HP x 1.17 = flywheel figure.

 :)
Title: Big power! Still twin??
Post by: John Yorke on May 01, 2006, 05:13:00 PM
Quote from: shaunwilCheers, I\'ll probably do them next then ! Its just a HKS twin spark for the improved spark ??

Shaun

That seems to be the unit everyone goes for