im starting this to split it away from the FC Apexi thread
in my continuing hunt for FC knowledge i came accross this :
http://www.hitman.hm/injectors.htm
can someone confirm that the info is correct
if this is the case i just need to get some injectors from a 12a :D
*** edit ***
TII injectors are TOP feed - so FD ones wont work as they are side feed
TII - TOP Feed
FD - Side Feed
12a - ???????????
ta
Stu
Wow, I never would have thought the 12a\'s where bigger!
Sorry I dont know how they are plummed in :(
you have to remember that was only off the 12aT and all the Gen1s we got in the UK were carb and not injection. Might be a problem to find them even if they are top feed!
I think there were some EFI versions with aftermarket turbo\'s - even in the UK.
There was also the Gen1 with a 13B engine - so these are a direct swapper, but I can\'t see what size these were!
I have a couple of SARD 720cc\'s that came on an intake manifold, but the complexity of adding tertiary\'s put me off using them. Also the inlet pipe was somewhat brutally cut - so its a welding job to put a new pipe on - if anyone wants the metal work, then I am willing to let it go, as I have a Greddy intake to match my ARC intercooler now and don\'t need it. I might want to keep the injectors though - depending on how this thread develops :mmmm
They are top feed, but I suspect they are low impedance, so I would have to use resistors with these.
The inlet is drilled and fitted with mountings for the 2 additional injectors. I can supply a pic if required.
Quote from: ProfI think there were some EFI versions with aftermarket turbo\'s - even in the UK.
There was also the Gen1 with a 13B engine - so these are a direct swapper, but I can\'t see what size these were!
I have a couple of SARD 720cc\'s that came on an intake manifold, but the complexity of adding tertiary\'s put me off using them. Also the inlet pipe was somewhat brutally cut - so its a welding job to put a new pipe on - if anyone wants the metal work, then I am willing to let it go, as I have a Greddy intake to match my ARC intercooler now and don\'t need it. I might want to keep the injectors though - depending on how this thread develops :mmmm
They are top feed, but I suspect they are low impedance, so I would have to use resistors with these.
The inlet is drilled and fitted with mountings for the 2 additional injectors. I can supply a pic if required.
the 13b engined gen 1 was the GSE-LX (I think) only for the US market I believe. The 12aT was not officially avail here so although there are a few here they would eb hard to find.
i think you should donate the injectors to me to be honest
next plan is to look at jags , evo , scoobie to see what they run
its all fun and games owning a rex :D
Stu
Grinder, Ideally, what size injectors are you after for primary and secondary?
I can not confirm all the information provided, but can drop my 2p about the injectors for sec. gen.
We should be limited to cars avaliable in UK / EU or cars which come to UK from Japan, as the import scene is quite big here.
We should not look at the cars which were avaliable in US. This includes the GSL-SE version of 13B EGI engine. The injector sizes are still unconfirmed on this one, as some say them are 2x 680cc the others 2x 720cc... Also the 12A Turbo from Japan is an exotic car, even in UK. I would be very carefull in getting used injectors from this cars, as there is also a time injectors were used which will influence the injectors condition. I would recomend to use a pair of brand new injectors before getting two 20 years or even older injectors.
All other cars are equiped with following set of injectors:
12A engines for UK / EU are all carburator type. So no injectors there ;)
13B EGI comes with 4x 440cc injectors. Them are LOW impedance, TOP feed.
13B Turbo Series4 (180hp version) comes with 4x 550cc injectors. Them are LOW impedance, TOP feed.
13B Turbo Series5 (200hp) comes with 4x 550cc injectors. Them are HIGH impedance, TOP feed.
13B Turbo Cosmo engine comes with 4x 550cc Injectors. the primarys are SIDE feed, the secondarys are TOP feed type. Them are HIGH impedance.
13B REW comes with staged injector- Setup. we all know about them. They are HIGH impedance.
20B Cosmo engine comes with 6x 550cc injectors. Them are all SIDE- feed. Them are HIGH impedance type.
Upgrading the fuel system depends on the target power- output. Also is the ECU is important factor of the setup you want to run.
I will try to provide some very basic fuel to power calculation on a ported 13B engine:
4x550cc injectors: up to 300-320hp on the fly
2x550 and 2x700cc injectors: up to 330-360 hp on thy fly
4x700cc injectors: up to 370-410 hp on thy fly
2x550 and 2x1000cc injectors: up to 400-440 hp on thy fly
2x700 and 2x1000cc injectors: up to 440-490hp on the fly
4x1000cc injectors: up to 520-580 hp on the fly
4x550cc and 2x550 in the plenum: up to 420-470hp on the fly
4x 550cc and 2x700cc in the plenum: up to 470-520hp on the fly
4x700cc and 2x550cc in the plenum: up to 520-570hp on thy fly
4x700cc and 2x700cc in the plenum: up to 550-620hp on thy fly
what injectors are avaliable.
all the HKS Greddy SARD PowerEnterprice etc. are all DENSO injectors. Many of them are made only for one reseller, like scooby injectors for PowerEnterprice only from my knowlage.
you have the option of LOW impedance TOP feed injectors:
550cc
650cc
700cc square connector, blue colour
720cc square connector, brown colour
800cc oval connector, yellow green colour
1000cc oval connector, blue colour
you have the option of HIGH impedance TOP feed injectors
550cc
650cc oval connector, yellow colour
800cc oval connector, purple colour
You can use all of the low- imp injectors with a resistor (at least 10W resistor!)
all this injecotrs will fit FC3S fuel rail without any modifications.
You can use a set of Bosch type injector sized at 1680cc which will require fuel rail modifications on FC3S. Them are TOP feed LOW impedance!
It depends on the ECU you are running, in your choice of injectors and the right impedance.
if you use Microtech ECU, you can use HIGH or LOW impedance injectors, like 4x low imp or 4x high imp. You should not mix the injectors.
if you use Apexi Power FC, you will need to run HIGH impedance injectors or LOW impedance with resistor to provide about 14 OHM per injector driver.
Hope this helps.
REgards
Iwan
Quote from: grinderi think you should donate the injectors to me to be honest
next plan is to look at jags , evo , scoobie to see what they run
its all fun and games owning a rex :D
Stu
I reckon they mostly run our hand me downs. :Tongue1
There are always loads of 550cc ones on ebay - so someone must be upgrading !
I think because the rotaries drink so much, the injectors are good for more bhp on other cars.
I am trying to undestand the relationship between the size of the injector and how much fuel is actually squirted - seems that fuel pressure and duty both determine how much actually goes in. So just pushing up fuel rail pressure will get more fuel - but what\'s the downside ?
Does anyone know how they arrive at a particular size rating ?
I am also interested in a Fuel Pressure Reg - any recommendations ?
Nice one Iwan - pretty comprehensive stuff. :Thumbs-up
Quote from: ProfI reckon they mostly run our hand me downs. :Tongue1
There are always loads of 550cc ones on ebay - so someone must be upgrading !
I think because the rotaries drink so much, the injectors are good for more bhp on other cars.
I am trying to undestand the relationship between the size of the injector and how much fuel is actually squirted - seems that fuel pressure and duty both determine how much actually goes in. So just pushing up fuel rail pressure will get more fuel - but what\'s the downside ?
Does anyone know how they arrive at a particular size rating ?
I am also interested in a Fuel Pressure Reg - any recommendations ?
All the injectors are rated on a given pressure. The normal pessure injectors are flow- tested/ rated is 43,5PSI.
If you rize the pressure in using a fuel pressure regulator, your injectors will flow more than specified.
Fuel pressure regulators are a very important upgrade on modified cars. best example is FD3S. You can rize the boost up to max of about 1.2 BAR. using the stock pressure regulator will end in a very lean condition and probably a blown engine. Rising the fuel pressure will compensate the need of more fuel without changing the injectors.
from a basic fuel to power calculation you can see the difference in rizing the fuel presure:
figures are for stock FD3S injectors at about 85% injector duty
at 40 PSI fuel presure: up to 340hp
at 50 PSI fuel presure: up to 380hp
at 60 PSI fuel presure: up to 410hp
you get about 70hp more power just from rising the fuel pressure. But nobody will recomend to you runing 60 PSI fuel presure, this is just an example just to show the effect.
REgards
Iwan
ekk that took some reading !!
im after 720\'s ideally - nothing over the top - and easy to adjust ( using safc for now - will go microtech later on )
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO - its just finding some that arent wallet shatteringly expensive !! LOL
so this config is idea prob : 2x550 and 2x700cc injectors: up to 330-360 hp on thy fly
gonna drop a FD pump into the car as a cheap safety measure for delivering the fuel
Stu
( Iwan - thats one hell of a post - esp if you typed it off the top of your head ! )
Slightly off topic - but it\'s still injector-ish.
You mentioned WI in an earlier post - I presume Water Injection - what\'s the best place to do this - I am guessing into the pipe between IC and the throttle body ?
Has anyone done this and got it working - maybe a new thread ? :Typing
he he he i looked into that aswell
its supposed to be VERY good for a rotary ! - steam cleans the engine as it runs
you can set it to actaivate on boost - so once you hit say 6psi - then the water comes on - this way you can still accerate gradualy to the red line and it wont fire - it will only do it WOT ( which is on boost ! )
i have looked on the FC and you should bebale to stick it in the pipe that comes out the TMIC ( inlet side ) - its made of metal - so simple job - this will cool the air before the IC
that looks the best place - after the IC its all rubber piping ( although you can still do it .. somehow )
its Kev\'s fault - he runs a dual stage WI - one before the FMIC fires at 0 bar - just as you come out of vac - then the other stage fires on the after the FMIC at .9 bar ( i think )
very very good system to be honest
thing is - you have to carry water round with you to fill the tanks up if they run down
its cheaper that a FMIC and doesnt need loads of fabriaction work
hope this helps - you would need to read more into it - as im not 100% sure my self !!
you are looking at around £200 for the kit to do it
Stu
( i will just keep sticking up random thread about mods - there are lots of clever people on here - i have learnt so much in the last few months from this place - its great :D )
just reading Iwan\'s post again
Quotefrom a basic fuel to power calculation you can see the difference in rizing the fuel presure:
figures are for stock FD3S injectors at about 85% injector duty
at 40 PSI fuel presure: up to 340hp
so if i drop in a FD fuel pump ( which im fdoing anyways ) - that should handle upto 340 BHP - its just the injecotors that wont ?
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
a good starting point to modding an FC is to aim for a min of
2x550 and 2x700cc injectors: up to 330-360 hp on thy fly
with FD Fuel pump
Stu
that assumes the FD fuel pump runs at 40PSI without an FPR.
Quote from: grinderjust reading Iwan\'s post again
so if i drop in a FD fuel pump ( which im fdoing anyways ) - that should handle upto 340 BHP - its just the injecotors that wont ?
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
a good starting point to modding an FC is to aim for a min of
2x550 and 2x700cc injectors: up to 330-360 hp on thy fly
with FD Fuel pump
Stu
Cheers Stu! :D
The FD Pump will manage 340hp for sure. I\'m running one on my FC3S with T04E on 1,1 BAR and about 350hp without probs.
Stu, you have to go for Microtech, you will be suprised about what you (or the tuner) can get of your car ;)
REgards
Iwan
the jap model 12a turbo model with fuel injection came with 850 cc inj, but they only had two of them, they are now well over 20 years old, so its difficult to find matched ones that work properly
you are better off dropping in a bosch 040 fuel pump in the tank which you can get for about 80 quid new as FD ones are getting old and they only flow slightly more fuel than a FC. The 040 flowed 350 rwhp on mine and as the FC has a smaller swirl pot in the tank you dont have a problem with \'hicups\' round the bends. Its a direct replacement virtually and you are getting a new pump.
thing is - i already have the FD pump in the garage :D
itr got to be better than the FC one ( with 107K on the clock !! )
and i knw what you mean about the injectors - the hunt will continue !
Stu
An FD pump should be good for upto 400 bhp even. I went with a walb... (can\'t spell it), and that was easy to fit. They say it supports upto 500bhp - I\'m never going there in a vert ! :evillaugh
Thing is there is no benifit until you change the fuelling pressure or injector sizes. And as soon as you do either it will need tuning (hence the ecu or piggy back).
If you don\'t, it just gets swamped with fuel. :(
Still worth doing, as I never have any hesitation and the car runs really smooth now.
Thanks for the info on the water injection. Steam Power !
Found another possible way to boost pressure on the fuel rails - not sure how naughty this is. :spank
There is a solenoid which is called PRC which cuts vacuum to the pressure regulator, giving an increase in fuel pressure. This is used when restarting the engine warm, to avoid fuel perculating in the fuel rails.
That means this solenoid probably does sweet FA at any other time, and might be persuaded to lend a helping hand. There is no feedback loop for the fuel pressure, so the ECU would not be aware that we did anything here.
Another ECU / piggy back would still have to be used to map the increased fuel.
No idea how much of an increase this might give, but all these few percent all add up.
More Air + More Fuel = :cool
More Air + Same Fuel = :flamed
Same Air + More Fuel = :Hammer
Prof : you scare me :D
It must be spring ! :)
All these TII\'s being broken, ebay full of exotic parts - maybe it\'s Christmas! :Santa
Seriously though - this PRC doo hickey could be just the ticket - and it\'s electrically accessable as well - as I\'m keeping my car I don\'t mind modding the loom - but will document everthing in case the car has to go :(
can we just stick with the simple IC temp mod to start with !! LOL
You\'re right of course - running before walking again..... :Giggle
Did you still want some 720cc Injectors ?
I found some 800cc ones on ebay - US Seller - for the 89-92 TII, brand new and these were £85 with £20 postage - no doubt I will get stung for duty, but it seemed worth it.
Guy has a shop on ebay - TLF Performanceparts
TLF Performanceparts (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/TLF-performanceparts_W0QQssPageNameZstrkQ3amewaQ3amesstQQtZkm)
Check them out.
What it means is that I now have an throttle inlet that needs a tube welding to it, but it does have a pair of SARD 702cc\'s in it - they are used. If you want them, make us an offer :Thumbs-up
Did you see my other post about some bits to test out the project - looking for spare temp sendors? thought you might no someone who has bits
i could be interested in the 720\'s yes :D
not sure how easy they are to fit though !! LOL
i saw your post - but i dont have any :(
Nas might have some - or brett might .. he has lots of spares :D
Stu
What might I have? :D
Here are some pictures of the inlet with the injectors :
They are low impedance 2 Ohms type - so would need resistors for an S5
I have not tested them, and they are \'used\'.
Sensible offer ?
Brett see the other thread
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25281
it might make more sense!
cheers :cheers
how do you put resistors on injectors .. ???
you idea idea of how USED they are ?
*** edit ***
me again :D
how do you know they are low rated ones ??
im not too keen on hacking the wires to fit resistors :(
why is nothing straight forward on a FC eh ?????
read : http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=121793&highlight=720+resistor
To fit the resistors:
1. You need to cut one of the wires that goes to the injector plug.
2. You then need to buy a 10 Ohm - 20/30 Watt resistor (the wirewound ones that come in their own heatsink are best - look cool too, as they are gold in colour).
3. Place a bit of heatshrink tubing over each end of the wire you cut - and move it along the wire quite a bit (keep it cool when soldering :yes )
4. Pare back the insulation on each wire end.
5. Solder the resistor in place.
6. Push back the heat shrink over the fresh solder joins and wave a hair dryer over it.
It doesn\'t matter which lead you cut, as the resistor will be in series either way, however if someone is measuring voltages on the car, they will get the same readings as Hi-Impedance injectors if you put the resistor on the positive supply line (the ecu\'s have power transistors that ground the injector which fires it).
As to how used they are - I don\'t know. I got this off ebay - they look pretty clean, but are minus the O-rings on the top. They are in an injector mounting bung, so there are just three hex bolts to release them. They are top mount and should fit the standard fuel rails. They are labelled as DENSO, and have a blue rectangular connector. Not sure what connector the S5 FC has.
I decided to go with the 800\'s, and possibly up the fuel rail pressure just a smidge :D
I\'ll keep the primaries as 550, as it seems there is much better control for idle and low rpm. There is also spare capacity on these, so there should be about another 500cc worth of fuel on each rotor to be had with the larger secondaries. (An overall fuel increase of 66% based on 85% PWM).
That\'s gotter be enough to see 300BHP at the fly, with an increase in boost on the stock turbo (12-14 psi max) ! :yes
Now I just need to find/make a boost controller and something to map the extra fuel - and of course cooling ! :Thumbs-up
Just read through that other thread regarding injectors - god they make it complicated.
Here\'s a quickish lesson on solenoids / injectors.
Basically these devices use a current to actuate them. So if you apply a voltage across the connector, it will cause a current to flow.
For clarity\'s sake let\'s keep the figures simple, so the maths is easier.
A High Impedance injector will be about 12 Ohms. Assuming 12V supply, you will get a current flow of 1 Amp.
With a Low Impedance Injector of 2 Ohms, and 12V Supply, you will get about 6A, followed by a melting plastic smell, and a small fire as the injectors catch fire !
So the 10 Ohm resistor in series adds resistance restoring the 1 Amp current flow.
As it happens, the S4 cars had a pack of resistors for just such a purpose, so these can be used if you can find them. Otherwise anything in the region of about 8-10 Ohms should work. Power resistors come in strange values (2.7, 3.3, 3.6, 4.7, 5.6, 6.8, 8.2, 10) - Dont be tempted to go any lower than the 8.2 Ohms for the reasons above.
Hope that helps ?
matey - i love you electonics 101 lessons
they make sense :D :D
IF i get your 720\'s i can control them with the SAFC ( once its fitted ) - so thats not a prob from my end
Stu