Hi all,
right some people may have been reading my rebuild thread (not technically a rebuild) and will know the back story to this, for those that dont, why didn\'t you read my thread?! read this: http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23880
The only reason I didn\'t add this to that thread was to get as much attention as possible.
Well I went out tonight with the intention of letting the car run up to temp so I could assess how she was running.
I topped up the water, added a little oil since it would have fed through to the system since I filled it cold, and turned the key.
The good news is it fired up immediately, hurrah!
The not-so-good news is that it seems to be smoking exactly the same as before. rubbish.
I\'ll try to list as much of what was going on as possible so people can give me their opinions.
ok, 93 FD, the engine is ported, 3mm tips, less than 10k since rebuild, only 47kms on clock.
T78 single turbo just had oil seals replaced, the fins/blades in the hot side (i think) are severely cut down so they don\'t follow the curve of the housing.
Large FMIC, custom intercooler pipes (badly made), stock injectors, stock fuel pump, no regulator, bur9 plugs (i think).
Standard clutch, and rest of drivetrain.
air pump removed, air con removed (by me), polished plenum, water filler etc etc.
Apexi pfc and commander currently reset to base map
Pretty straight through looking exhaust (about 3inch) with only silencer.
Think thats it but feel free to ask questions.
Ok so the car started, idled at 1800rpm, 10% injector duty, and at first I thought the knock sensor was broken but it did wobble a tiny bit after warming up but hardly any at all.
White smoke was immediately coming from the exhaust, not very thick but consistent and it seemed to smell of not much but fuel if anything. From the engine bay, the belts were running reasonably fast (high idle) but there also seemed to be quite a high pitched hissing from the main block, maybe an air type hiss, but its been so long since i listened to a 13b run im not sure if it is normal.
When the water temp came up, the idle started to hunt, and slowly hunted less and less until it settled to around 950rpm, 6% injector duty
Still smoking, and still hissing from the engine bay. also when it was hunting, as the revs went up there was a slight squeak at the start of the rise.
I let it run for a while and it seemed to sit happily, smoking along. The water temp was rising, and when it hit around 106 on the pfc (3/4 on the dash gauge) the fans kicked in, but the temp kept rising, it went up to 115 on the pfc before i decided to switch it off.
Once it was off there was a frying bacon sound coming from under the front of the turbo, and a quieter sizzling noise coming from around the oil filter/leads/fuel lines area.
I couldnt see any leaks, either oil or water, there was some water under the air filter but i think it may have just been a drip as i found some on top of the filet too, prob from the open bonnet lip.
Thats about everything i can think of, trailing and leading were varying around the 23-28 degree degree area, both seemed to have the same figures at the same time though.
So what could it be?
all i can think of is;
Worst case scenario: damaged oil seals in the block = rip it out AGAIN and rebuild properly.
OR
over fuelling somehow causing the smoke, as that is the only thing it really smelled of, although the injector duty seemed about right.
OR
Aliens
OR
Turbo is not installed properly somehow
The only thing to be fixed is the turbo, and the pfc has been reset, and the car is now kicking out smoke exactly the same as before i took it apart, what could it be?
All theories accepted please!
:)
I think my first concern would be your water temps, I take it you were not getting the dreaded coolant buzzer? If the fans did not kick in till 100+c I would be re-setting that 1st of all. You did not state how long you had her running, as this was the 1st time starting up I would expect some smoke.
I think you\'d best attack this as follows:
1 Check and adjust the temp the fans come on - should be 80 -85
2 Make sure you burp the system to ensure you have no air in the coolant
3 Go over all the bolts connected to the turbos to ensure you have no leaks
4 Take her out for a run and see if she still smokes
5 If she does, would indicate to me you need a \'propper\' re-build.
hth
is the map sensor plugged in and connected to a vacumn boost source?
yeah thats a good point. Rixio had a smoking issue when we left the Thor day on Saturday - the Thor guys had left the map sensor off (or similar) I believe
The temps could be down to an air lock.
Quote from: cjris the map sensor plugged in and connected to a vacumn boost source?
I take it youve just rebuilt and installed the engine.
If you rebuilt it, did u use vaseline to hold the tips and seals in place, did you oil up the faces of the side plates?
my fd smoked for quite a while after rebuild until it burnt the oil and vaseline of.
also if theres any oil on your exahust manifold or turbo then this can also take a while to burn of from initial startup.
as for the hissing you will probably find one or two hoses that could be slightly loose and need tightening up a wee bit as ive found loads of times on re installing different engines.
ok,
map sensor is definately plugged in, its the vacuum pipe to the little black box on the bulkhead that says boost something-or-other on it right? behind the intake elbow sort of area.
The engine wasn\'t rebuilt this time around, just re-installed, so that is no direct reason for the smoking.
The turbo area did produce some smoke immediately on warming up but this soon faded so that seems to be all fine.
The only thing i can think for the water temps is that the car was boxed in on 3 sides by walls so there was no fresh air and no wind, this could perhaps cause the high temp?
As far as adjustong the fan kick-in i thought it was a sensor set to 106 that kicked them in and not something that is adjustable? Tim showed me one at rxmotors a few weeks back, it has 106 printed on the side (or 105 or 104, something around there)
Something Davehg suggested when I spoke to him last night is that it could simply need a good hard drive to clear out the system, the previous owner had a dodgy home made map in the ecu and didnt run it very often, it might just need to have the cobwebs blown out, along with a decent tune?
Well, for my 2 pence worth, i think, as John says, that the water temp situation needs to be investigated more. It\'s worrying that the fans did not go on till 105, and then more worrying that the temp did not come down. The temps got very very hot, but i think you switched off before it was dangerously hot - with pure water the temp it boils at is 129 C. Also, the white smoke suggests coolant too - so this should be investigated first and foremost.
hmm maybe there is a coolant blockage or something somewhere...
Can anyone confirm my thoughts on there being some kind of temp semsor set at around the 106 deg mark, and how would i make the fans kick in earlier? the heat may as i said have been caused by the car sitting in a closed alleyway/driveway, ill try and run it around soon and see if the same happens.
Also i remember when it was switched off and cooling down, there was a egular bubbling noise coming from the coolant tank area, is this to be expected when the system is cooling from very hot?
The confined area should not affect the temps coming down - i.e. even though you were in a confined area, the temps should have come down when the fans came on.
I can\'t recall exactly when the fans kick in. There\'s certainly one speed at which they kick in at 100 C. I think there is the fastest speed that kicks in at 105, but i\'m not altogether sure. If you have the power FC, the datalogit is the only way to go to reduce the temps that the fans come on at.
if you have a pfc, you can set the temperature the fans come on at anyhow cant you?
Quoteif you have a pfc, you can set the temperature the fans come on at anyhow cant you?
Temps can be set with the Apexi ECU, but you need the datalogit to do so. You can\'t do it via the commander.
if you have AC in the meantime, you could leave that on so that the fan for that is running? those water temps def sound a touch high - i take it they were taken from the commander? How the car is boxed in shouldnt really play a part....sitting in traffic behid another car is worse!! with all those exhaust gasses heating up the front of your car!
I havent looked at the cooling system on an FD or read about it yet as i havent had time, but could this be a sympton of the stuck shut thermostat (obviously depending on where the stat is located- im guessing its either in or close to the WP housing? and also on wherre the WT sensor is located?)
A thermostat that\'s stuck shut would certainly explain why the fans didn\'t cool the coolant - but not necassarily the smoke.
Dan, do you have a secondary temp gauge like a lot of people do? One that\'s plumbed into the coolant system after the fan? If so, did it register any temps?
where is the stock WT sensor just out of curiosity?
its under the oil filter just down the side of the engine (that sort of area)
afraid i dont have any aftermarket gauges apart from the pfc commander, so i dont know the oil temp at all for example, and no second reference for the water temp.
I no longer have aircon so cant use this to switch the fans on.
I\'m wondering if the temp was just peaking and about to go down due to the fans when i switched it off? would it drop instantly on start of the fans?
damn i sold the datalogit i got with the car a couple of weeks ago!
I\'ll get a better idea of how the water temps go when ive run it round the block for ten minutes i suppose, better get my headlights back in. :)
Oh, just a small note: even though you don\'t have the air con, doesn\'t mean you can\'t have the fans come on when the air con button is pressed. I don\'t have air con either, but my air con button still made the fans come on - i made sure that when the guy de-pressurized the system, he helped me sort it so the fans come on. it is possible.
Are the fans wired up correctly so they can come on?
I thought the stock thermostat came on at around 92-96 degrees c?
The bubbling you can hear is localised boiling from the turbos as they are also watercooled.
I think Dan said the fans were coming on, but the temp didn\'t come down. Dan, there\'s no way that you turned it off just before the temps came down. what you should have seen happen is when the fans come on, the temp stabilsies (maybe goes up by one more degree), and then after a little bit (maybe somethng lile a minute) the temps will start to come down slowly - degree by degree.
Thermostat starts to open at about 79-80 degrees. But it could be stuck shut, and thats why the temps aren\'t coming down. It\'s a possiblitity - and not a rare problem (all cars can get sticking thermostats)
ok so yes nikp is right, the fans are coming on it but maybe a bit late (i couldnt tell you the exact moment they kicked in) and also they dont seem to be affecting the temp at all, as after being on the temp rose at least another 10 degrees.
Ooh, thinking about it i did put plain old water in with no coolant, forgot that i was going to drain it again and put some with coolant in as i heard mixing brands may cause trouble. if i flush it and refill with coolant could this have a significant effect? feel free to flame me if this is the cause of my problem and im just an idiot!
Still doesnt expalin the exhaust smoke though, i\'ll wait till i run it i suppose and see how it goes after that
:)
where are you in southampton Dan? I could come round and offer a second opinion if you like?
Water or water with anti-freeze won\'t make any difference to whether the temps go down or not. Even just plain water will mean the temps should come down (In fact, pure water will be the best coolant for your engine, but won#t protect it at all)
hi Fro, rob isn\'t it? travelled up with you to brooklands a few weeks back, i went in robedwards\' car.
You are more than welcome to come and have a look anytime, i live in chandlers ford, on chalvington road, you know it?
I also took a wee video on my phone of the car running, i uploaded it to photobucket but it is the WORST conversion ever, but if you watch the second half you can see the smoke from the exhaust for reference. Does anyone know how to get a 3gpp video up onto the net in a decent form, this one doesnt even have sound! http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a399/dandantrash/?action=view¤t=MOV00002.flv
bay looks shiny though! :)
Yup I remember you from the brooklands day Dan. I can get over to you at 5:30-6ish if that\'s any use.. I don\'t know Chandlers ford but the AA\'s route map reckons you\'re only 12 minutes away :) (which probably means more like 24 ;) )
PM me with your house number if you\'ll be around later, if not I can probably do it tomorrow
Cheers
Rob
i have some private graphics jobs i need to do tonight so i wont be home anywhere near that early! maybe tomorrow is a better bet? it\'s number 75, it\'s no secret!! lol
Quote from: dandani have some private graphics jobs i need to do tonight so i wont be home anywhere near that early! maybe tomorrow is a better bet? it\'s number 75, it\'s no secret!! lol
oh no everyone will be calling round your house now! :) :Giggle
Tomorrow should be fine
Cheers
Rob
meh, all are welcome! you\'ll get a cup of tea if you fix the damn car too ;)
A cup of tea for fixing your car? Is that all? ;)
oh ok, and a biscuit.
Its maybe at bit crude and not a long term solution but you could link out the radiator fan switch when it gets aournd 85-90 and leave the fans running to see if that holts the temp rise to dangerous hights?.
You need to approach this methodically, sort one problem before you start on an other, sort your water out 1st! go and get some additive that you are supposed to have in the coolant and MAKE SURE YOU CLEAR ALL THE AIR this takes time to do correctly especialy if you have a FMIC with the rad in an upright position. Once you are happy with that check your temps your fans SHOULD COME ON around 85 -90, your stat OPENS later, sort that before you go any further.
HTH
I\'ve just had an email from another rotorhead and he mentioned that the system should take up to 8-9 litres of water, now i\'m pretty certain i didnt managed to get anywhere near that much in it, i think i need to just take some time and keep burping it till i can fill it no more, by my reckoning i could have only put 5 litres max in. i\'ll add some coolant at the same time. hope i didnt damaged anything too much by running so low on water, and i hope this is the solution.
Regards the fans and thermostat, i\'m not too clued up in this area, i thought the thermostat was just a temp sensor that decided when the fans come on, what do you mean when you say the stat \'opens\'? excuse my feeblemindedness.
The thermostat is located in the water pumop housing. it is round and works by heat when it gets to its operasting range 85 or 92 degrees can\'t rember which it opens thus allowing water to pass through it and then into rad. If you have you old water pump housing take the filler neck off and remove the bit behind it that I beleive you had an O ring for. Boil a kettle put stat into hot water and watch:) fans are controlled by the sensor just behind this the plug is black and is just below the ecu temp sender which is the green plug. the one at the back off the engine is the sender for the dash. one quick hint when you have as much water in as you can get. you can take the caps off when the engine is running and top up as required BE VERY CAREFUL IF THERE IS PRESSURE IN THE SYSTEM would suggest this just after start up.
Dan
I will try and get over about 7.30 tomorrow evening, will call first.
Dave
well after almost doubling the amount of water in the system (oops) the whole cooling system seems to be working perfectly!
Started her up after bleeding the system and filling to the brim, she heated up to about 65 deg, worked a bubble out of the system then went on up to mid 90\'s when the fans cut in and went right back down to around 85. Hurrah!
Still pushing out smoke but rob (fro) is 99% convinced it is just the massive amount of residue in the system from when it was run for so long with damaged turbo oil seals.
Time to put it all back together, get some insurance and blow those cobwebs out!
MASSIVE thanks to Rob for coming out to see me, you are a top, top man!
Also thanks to Daverey for coming out and handing over a bag full of nice shiny new nuts and bults, luvverly!
Which other club in the world would get you not one but two petrol heads to come and sort your problems?! brilliant.
:):):):):):)
Great news Dan! Glad to hear everything is looking peachy again!
No problem Dan, I love a happy ending :)
Let us know how you get on with the MOT and mapping!
done mate, knew you could do it :wave
see you at tims next sat???
No problems Dan, just shout if you need more help.
Dave
glaqd to here it is running properly look forward to seeing it soon
thanks everyone, should also say big thanks to davehg and cjr for all the advice i\'ve had recently.
Dave, i doubt the car will make it to tims (need mot first) but i could prob pop down if you will have your car there? i still havent been for a ride, hint hint!
Cjr, you\'ll hopefully see it once i can get some insurance and an mot, do you know how long Thames Valley usually takes to get a booking?
right i better start posting on the original rebuild progress thread really, any more comments please head over to my other thread. http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23880
:):):):):)
it should be there mate (weather depending lol) you can have a ride this time mate :WaveBye