OK, we had the "what engine" thread and now thats sorted (13b 6 port from Carl and delivered very kindly by Kev-yorks) I need to sort out somthing that won\'t break for the rear axle
My current thought is to use a series 2 rx7 axle I think it may be a little wider than the original but not too much ?? does anyone else know what my options are. I\'d prefer to keep a 4x110 stud pattern if possible but if changed I\'d like somthing really common like 4x108
I hear the 323 diffs last quite a while if locked.
Otherwise as you said - early RX or RX-7 with 323 mounts attached. I gotta feeling the RX-3 ones fit without shortening. Series 3 RX-7 have the better 26 spline axles iirc.
or...
Ford 9 inch (heavy) ?
Transit, trader, etc (any good?) ?
Mazda B2000/2200, etc ?
Toyota Hilux ?
Other Euro or British commercial ?
Plenty of options but also plenty of work involved unfortantely. :3gears-rh
Will be watching this thread closely for ideas none-the-less! ;)
EDIT: may help? http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2695
I would think it would be a choice of either a toyota hilux as they come with great ratios and are strong as buggery. Or possibly a volvo one, they already come with disc brakes, are cheap as ships and it isnt too difficult to re-drill stud pattern to whatever you are wanting.
cheers, michael.
( I am putting an english axle, escort in the moggy as it will only be a standard 12a for the meanwhile. But have a hilux diff waiting on the sidelines that will eventually be 5 linked)
i\'m thinking about series 2 rx7 as that at least has the correct stud pattern If its too wide I might have a go at shortening it (it can\'t be that hard??) I\'ve not got the tools to redrill an accurate stud pattern but we reckon we can shorten an axle (I\'ve machined half shafts before)
would a hilux axle need shortening ?
I had heard a rumour that bedford rascal and Suzuki equivilent axles are pretty tough and they are 4x114.3 (I could at a push fit some series 3 front struts but I\'d be annoyed as I have all new bits on my S2 struts!!)
thanks for the ideas, I find it helps to go through all these things ... keep em coming :)
Oooops :eek: seem to remember not replying to a PM from a couple of weeks ago :( :Hammer :spank
I asked about the Sunbeam axle but it was bad news on 2 counts:
1 - He\'d choped the Mazda brackets off
2 - He\'s keeping it now as he has 2 Sunbeam shells in his garage and has worked up some enthusiasm to build one up :(
Getting rare now I suppose, but still be worth looking out for one tho\' - correct width, stronger shafts than an English, 4 x 108, and 4.4 diff with LSD option.
Rich ;)
Mike,we have run the std 323 diff with up to 180 ponies,would not break at all,up the ponies to about 200 and then it started to have gremlins.Had it pin locked and it took 240 ponies no probes on the drag circuit !! :cool
thanks Rich, I presumed he\'d want the axle ... Sunbeams seem to be nearly as bad as Escorts these days.
Era, what is pin locked and how does this differ from the usual welded diff ? How did it drive on the road ? I\'ve been in cars with locked diffs before and it didn\'t seem to much of a problem on the road.
Mike if you can break a Hilux diff i will buy you a beer or 12 :god
ooops. I forgot I have a gen 1 rear axle complete. Locked with discs etc etc. Would need new brake pipes and a good clean up. You can HAVE it for FREE if you get it collected. Plus its 110 pcd so it will fit those wheels you got from me
That sounds like a challenge! I\'m liking the sounds of Era\'s modded diff and the standard setup taking the ponies I\'m going to chuck at it (150+hp ? 6 port with 48 DHLA and decent exhaust ) I\'ve got major plans for the rest of it so finding an axle is just one thing off the list and I don\'t mind "slightly" ;) modifying somthing so it works the way I want :D
Quote from: mullinsEDIT: may help? http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2695
thanks for that, just had time for a proper read ... soooo much info !
Quote from: kiwimazdaooops. I forgot I have a gen 1 rear axle complete. Locked with discs etc etc. Would need new brake pipes and a good clean up. You can HAVE it for FREE if you get it collected. Plus its 110 pcd so it will fit those wheels you got from me
That sounds very good :Thumbs-up It\'d be great to come over and have a look over the rally car too
Quote from: MikeLMRthanks Rich, I presumed he\'d want the axle ... Sunbeams seem to be nearly as bad as Escorts these days.
Era, what is pin locked and how does this differ from the usual welded diff ? How did it drive on the road ? I\'ve been in cars with locked diffs before and it didn\'t seem to much of a problem on the road.
Instaed of being welded they actually insert pins,they can be removed at a later stage if you want...it drives well on the road at SPEED,scrubs the tyres quicker...but brill to get the power down.You can really play with the oversteer in corners and scare the old queenies on country lanes...LOL
OK, I like the sounds of that ... pins = round = somthing I can make in the lathe = FUN :D
I need to understand which bits are replaced though, I can\'t quite picture how it works.
I\'m liking the idea of running this setup ... till it breaks ? then upgrading to a S2 axle that way I have a spare should it all go t1ts up.
you are more than welcome but I have to make coffee as my woman no good at that
are you going to do anything radical like bend the housing to give a touch of negative camber on the back? There used to be a rotorised 626 in oz that had this done. He had to change his wheel bearings more regularly but not too often. And it handled sooo well.
cheers,michael.
Quote from: kiwimazdayou are more than welcome but I have to make coffee as my woman no good at that
Geez Mike, you\'re special. I didnt get offered a cup of tea!
Mind you, the Karma made Brian trip over the Ford engine for that !!!!
LOL !!!!
Damn things got me again. Just tried to shoft it as The rx has to come out to play in a couple of weeks and, well you saw the mess in there.
Tried to move said ford lump. Gave up as nearly shat myself.
they are bit heavy aren\'t they ! suprised me when I tried to stop one falling over ... nearly pinned me to the floor !
We\'ll have to work out a time when I can come over :)
Any tome really.
Here most weekends
Quote from: MikeLMRthey are bit heavy aren\'t they ! suprised me when I tried to stop one falling over ... nearly pinned me to the floor !
Its all the pistons and cams and valves and springs.......... :rollin
All the more reason I didnt want it in MY shed !
I\'m still wondering on this one, has anyone shortened a diff before ? whats involved ? I don\'t think its too much hassle to shorten the casing but what about the half shafts ?
I\'m thinking it may be wise to shorten somthing really strong if its going to be a bit involved ? (don\'t want to do it twice !)
There are shops that advertise in the like of custom car etc that will shorten half shafts for around £120 a side. A bit expensive but to get it done properly and not have to worry about it braking is worth the money.
£120 a side is quite a price !
I\'ve been told that Suzuki carry/bedford rascal axles are strong and narrow. The width I can confirm is 1290mm which is nice and narrow but i\'m not 100% sure on the strength. They are at least a sensible stud pattern (4x114.3) but redrilling would probably be on the cards ?
ooh I forgot to say ... they come with 5.1:1 diff as standard. Might be too low ?!
Its a great ratio for drag racing!! Must say I am well pee\'d off at my diff conversion as finally got the new centre today so thought i would wack it in and the axles etc. Puts it all back together and the damn thing wont roll!!!Aaaaaagh. I think that it is because when i was cleaning up the axke casing I found a few pinholes from rust so thought i would get local engineer to weld it up for me. I reckon the he has welded the outside fine but put a few welds on the insid for good luck and the crown wheel is touching the weld. So tomorrow i will have to take it all apart again to investegate. CARS SUCK.
DoH pulling things appart that are nearly done sucks :(
I\'m starting to have evil ideas that if i\'m having the axle modified I may as well go much narrower than standard ... and then move the inner arches ... its about then It starts getting scary and I decide not to !
So what would be the benefit of moving stuff inwards? Would it not be better going wider than standard? Maybe flaring the arches in a subtle style. Unless you are thinking of tubbing it! :) I have a nice set of 16 inch diameter by 15 inch wide magnesium rims that you could have mike!!!!
tubbing had crossed my mind ... we have a jag IRS rear end going spare too (stupidly heavy and stupidly tall ratio though) Theres something cool about a tubbed car ... not that the engine would warrant that sort of work !
I don\'t want to go any wider as it means loosing the original arches and I don\'t really want to mess too much with the panels.
Its funny you should say jag rear end mike as the wheels i have are a jag stud pattern. Its like karma or something!
Those dims for the locked diff i have is from disc to disc 1450mm
cheers
brian
just been out for a measure of the 323 and I reckon its got a 1310mm rear track which condsidering the wheels are -20mm offset gives me an axle width of 1350ish
I guess thats why RX7 axles aren\'t a common swap into Rx3\'s and the like :(
Cough, cough..tubb it, cough, cough... Sorry? somebody say something??!
but that just makes things worse .. then I need a really short REAAAALY strong axle and huuuge tyres and .... etc. the list just boggles my mind !
I\'ve been doing a little research (well a lot ! ) and I think 323,rx3 and 808 axles are offset too which makes replacing a little more tricky too as rx7\'s etc. have a centred diff
How wide is a turbo II rear end? I know IRS is a pain to fit to a non-IRS car but might be worth looking at?
I know my english axle owes me about £260 in the moggy. That is without the new prop shaft. So Maybe a cheapish hilux diff and then shorten the axles, fabricate your own mounts onto the casing instead of paying for them like me and it might not owe you as much?
michael.
right now the only thing I wouldn\'t DIY is the halfshafts, I was thinking of having a go at doing the rest ourselves. If I went for an escort axle I would\'t need to shorten it so nothing but time and materials would be needed. That and a decent lsd axle to start with.
for those looking for idea\'s i\'ve also come up with some other options.
Isuzu Piazza turbo - LSD and 4.5" PCD no sure on strength, but the chevette guys use them all the time
Reliant Scimitar (only some models) - narrow jag 4HA axle - also with 4.5" PCD, I\'ve not worked out if the jag IRS diffs will interchange as thats a really cheap source of strong diffs.
Volvo 240 - needs narrowing and LSD is uncommon
Hilux - needs narrowing and LSD is uncommon
I\'m not keen on IRS, I\'d probably end up changing the fuel tank and other major mods
Have you actually measured the 323 axle Mike as regards offset diff?
I \'m pretty sure the pinion is in the centre of the axle, its just that the diff casing is offset.
It looked offset to me when I did my 323, and laterly the 1000, but the Ford diffs line up no problem - no crazy prop angles :D .
IIRC the 323 is 54 inches flange to flange and an english is 52 inches flange to flange, which is why I ran 1 inch spacers on it.
I actually put an English in the 1000,but ended up running different offset wheels on the rear as it was wider than the original :2Rolleyes It took a while to find the right casing
The 1000 is 51 flange to flange :rolleyes: so an Anglia van casing was needed as opposed to saloon which is 50 inches.
A tape measure is a very important piece of kit :yes :Giggle
Rich ;)
I\'d not measured the pinion, just looked under and had a measure across the drums. I\'m thinking an english axle might be the best option as some of the alternatives are getting rather expensive.
as usual i\'ll have probably changed my mind by the time I find somthing to suit :)
Ok, Use a Narrow (early) Hilux diff, There is a good choice of insane gear ratios, And it uses 30 spline axles (Very important in a rotary rallycar) the LSD isnt that Uncommon. (You just got to know where to look)
The other Option Is to use a Mazda B1600 / E2200 diff ( Narrow diff as well) The B2600 4x4 LSD fits, the Diff, The Input flange needs about 10mm off the Circumference and to be redrilled, But the spigot Fits the standard tailshaft. (Will also mean the STD tailshaft fits JUST). Full floating and 30 spline axles.
Drilling out the bearing Dust shield rivets gives you a 110 pcd 4 bolt flange. (Nice how they did that).
After spitting out several Std Mazda axles axles in one year , You need big axles.
(So I would rule out the ford Diff).
I can Email some pictures If you like.
Also, There is no bearing float, so brake knock off is eliminated. (Big problem with the rx7 diff due to axle flex. Also, the damm bearing Retainers creep on the Mazda diffs. B1600/2600 Axles have Screw on retainers so the problem doesnt happen.
They will also survive a 9 second pass down the Quarter, So will the Hilux diff.
My B1600 diff has been in the car for 2 seasons, and hasn\'t given the slightest problem.
Diff ratio ,Hm, What size wheels and what RPM are you going to be Using.
not sure where I would find a B1600 axle though ??
I\'m not sure how much a hilux diff would cost to get narrowed ??? A lot I\'m guessing ? ... is it a DIY job with some basic tools (lathe, drill press, welder etc.) or is it a specialist job thats no way attempted at home ?
What about the LSD how much and where do they come from ?
This car won\'t be a rally car, its just going to be abused and used for whatever I can, so it will see strip/road/airfield/track?!? I will use whatever rev\'s a standard 13b will take and the tyres are 185/60R13\'s but a narrow axle would probably result in an investment in some wider rims (within reason)
Mike this maybe worth keeping an eye on
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FORD-ATLAS-AXLE-NARROW-4-11-DIFF-ESCORT-MK1-MK2_W0QQitemZ8049437658QQcategoryZ27377QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FORD-ATLAS-AXLE-NARROW-4-11-DIFF-ESCORT-MK1-MK2_W0QQitemZ8049437658QQcategoryZ27377QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
It says small diff type so not sure whether an LSD would be available, but would imagine both the diff and shafts would be strong enough
Rich ;)
thanks rich, been trawling ebay looking at all sorts of axles lately :)
do you think i\'d break this one :D
(http://i23.ebayimg.com/03/i/06/aa/f2/12_1_b.JPG)
Wow 4 wheel steering - bet nobodys done that to a 323 before:cool
A bit of a drawback is that you\'ll have to go tubbed tho\' - I recon alloys will be quite big:Giggle.
Rich ;)
see mike, just tubb it. Go on... you know it makes sense. Ladder bars, coil overs... its all good. :)
cheers, michael.
Toyota Surf should have a LSD. You also need a EARLY Hilux diff as they are narrower (By about 4")
I think Profab (?) can do the diff housing . Weilding the brackets on isnt a do at home job. You need a jig .If you have a old forklift hydraulic shaft and an old diff centre, you are about 80% there.
OK ... its been decided. I\'m picking up a volvo 740 axle (Dana 1031) thats been rebuilt and with a brand new plate type LSD ... let the narrowing commence :)
Going to redrill for ford PCD and set the offset to suit at the same time as well (may as well they are cheap and plentifull)
Got some wheels and tyres for mockup as well ;)
Sounds good Mike! Post the progress pics please ;-)
axle is collected :) got to pull it appart to check it over but it should be spot on, all the seals and bearings are new and his a race/rally lsd from SAM Stefansson ... so it should be ideal, its even had a panhard rod bracket welded on in about the right place