what nozle size are you guys useing,also where have you mount\'d the injector,
All depends on what power figure your after as regards nozzle size theres a couple of sites got calculators if you do a search. Mines a twin set up so i\'m injecting one before and one after the intercooler.
Kevin
kev, is that the water injection you bought of me mate?
sods law, now i need one!! :mad:
It is Stu only got the first stage running at the moment had to wait for a couple of weeks for larger nozzles as they where noware near big enough for what i\'m running. Once the roads dry out again i\'ll be carrying on with the mapping, opening up the second stage and cranking up the boost some more.
Kevin
Quote from: kev-yorksAll depends on what power figure your after as regards nozzle size theres a couple of sites got calculators if you do a search. Mines a twin set up so i\'m injecting one before and one after the intercooler.
Kevin
will that cool the ic more having it before.
good lad :cool
does it work well then kev? how much as it reduced your intake temps?
asp try //www.coolingmist.com jet for nozzles. on the site somewhere they have a scale - hp related to nozzle size
they are good to deal with and deliver within 5 working days, not bad from the states, jets are peanuts on there by the way
There\'s two schools of thought Kriss with the injection point close to the throttle body helps cool the combustion chamber better. Close to the turbo helps with the inlet air temps. Pre turbo is very good for temps but if it doesn\'t atomise properly its bye bye turbo blades hence why not many people inject pre turbo. With the twin set up pre and after turbo should be getting the best of both worlds. I can get some pics tomorrow if you want.
Regards Kevin
Stuart never really had any issues with temps its more for that bit of safety as i intend to run quite a bit of boost so long as the driveline can take it.
Kevin
I have seen set ups that drill and tap into the inlet compressor wheel of the turbo and fit a WI injector there. Anyone else see this? Or is it what you were talking about Kev?
cheers, michael.
asp. The amount of water will depend on how much fuel and what the air temp is at the point of injection. Remember if you add water into the mix you will need to counter act it in the map to get best results. If not you will be washing power down the exhaust.
If you add to much water it will have a similar effect as adding too much fuel. Water has 3 times the latent heat capacity of petrol.
Scott
stu thats where i got it from,i didnt tel him what size i wanted,
kev pics would be good cheers,
That\'s the pre turbo set up i was on about michael trouble is if anything goes wrong with the nozzle its bye bye blades. Having said that rice racing in Aus is having a lot of success doing just that with a mechanical (boost pressure) system that injects pre turbo. Not sure exactly on the set up he uses but i think the gist of it is that boost pressure is vented into the water storage tank which in turn forces the water into the injector. One advantage of this would be no pumps to break down.
Kevin
I dont think RICE\'s current set up uses that anymore. He uses 2x aquamist racing pumps etc. The key to pre turbo WI is the atomisation of the water droplets. If the droplets are to large then after they hit the nut of the compressor the water will run down the impellor and take lumps off.
I believe the aqua mist jets are the best atomisation but coolingmist sells the smallest jets 0.5 gph
Scott
Quote from: sdminusasp. The amount of water will depend on how much fuel and what the air temp is at the point of injection. Remember if you add water into the mix you will need to counter act it in the map to get best results. If not you will be washing power down the exhaust.
If you add to much water it will have a similar effect as adding too much fuel. Water has 3 times the latent heat capacity of petrol.
Scott
im not going to tune it,so really i just want some one to say this size is good for 350hp this one for 400hp and so on
How much fuel are you gonna run at peak duty and do u have any idea of average inlet temp
Scott
talking of drilling and tapping into compressor wheel housing, my mate came up with a good idea today.
using small compresser bottle in the back of the car with 12v pump, run a air line to a solonoid wired up to throttle position sensor so when throtle open - solonoid open conected to a jet tapped into compressor housing to spin the turbine as soon as throtle opens.
we were ****ing about at dinner today blowing air line into a goosed t3, instant spool i must say!
could it work and take some lag out??
Not sure in what measurements your nozzles are rated but mine\'s 5GPH, for 400hp.
so what ur saying is car 1 with 400hp and car 2 with different spec but still with 400hp,both cars need different size nozzles?
sory i thought u had 350 hp which I would say you need around 3.8 gph of water. This will depend on the air temp. The lower the air temp the less likely the water will be to atomise correctly. You will still need to advacnce timing or remove fuel to counter act tho
Scott
pip told me rotarys take water well, (its surprising how much u can chuck in) is words where
Trust me with water i quote "little is more"
If it were methanol you would require a lot more
Scott
Asp you want to be aiming for about 18/20% water to fuel ratio if you can. that why you need a hp goal then you can work out the amount of fueling to achieve this and from that the amount of water required. Don\'t know what kit your thinking of fitting but certainly cooling mist will select the most appropriate nozzle size if you tell them engine type and estimated hp range.
Kevin
Quote from: GerbilStuntFarmNot sure in what measurements your nozzles are rated but mine\'s 5GPH, for 400hp.
what psi is ur pump?
Quote from: sdminussory i thought u had 350 hp which I would say you need around 3.8 gph of water. This will depend on the air temp. The lower the air temp the less likely the water will be to atomise correctly. You will still need to advacnce timing or remove fuel to counter act tho
Scott
this is a little more tricky than i thought,every thing on the engine is new, still running the engine in,all i know so far is i had 13 air temp on comander but that was in the night,
140psi Shurflo. Try Williamson as a dealer and they should have one.
is williamson online. i need a second pump
Scott
I don\'t think so but if you check out http://www.shurflo-original.com/ for a phone number, give them a call and ask for williamson\'s phone number, and ask them to send you a free catalogue (huge) while you\'re at it. I\'d give you the number now but I can\'t find it again. Wav may know since i sent him the number the other day.
Edit : They also sell shurflo pump parts seperately so you can rebuild them, or change the upper housing to different hose fittings.
Quote from: kev-yorksAsp you want to be aiming for about 18/20% water to fuel ratio if you can. that why you need a hp goal then you can work out the amount of fueling to achieve this and from that the amount of water required. Don\'t know what kit your thinking of fitting but certainly cooling mist will select the most appropriate nozzle size if you tell them engine type and estimated hp range.
Kevin
hp goal not to sure yet,iv got a coolingmist kit,i didnt tel him what hp i had so i got sent a 3.9,
so what i should do is talk to the person whos goin to tune the car ask them what sort of hp i might get,then look at getting the corect nozzle size,
cheers for your help guys :) :)
This is taken from cooling mists website to give you a idea of the injector sizes available Kriss you may well find your about right with the nozzle size
QuoteChoose the flow that you like listed in Gallons per hour in the drop down box, the flow is rated at 150 PSI , they will have a lower rating at 100 and 60 psi. high quality 1/8th brass NPT style fitting. Our single stage water injection kits come with 1 nozzle. Our Dual stage come with 2. Order one of these if you would like additional nozzles for tuning or you can order these without having to order a kit. At 100 psi the translation is as follows:
.75 @ 150 =.50 @ 100
1.3 @ 150 = 1.0 @ 100
2.8 @ 150 = 2.3 @ 100
3.9 @ 150 = 3.0 @ 100
6.0 @ 150 = 4.9 @ 100
12 @ 150 = 10. @ 100
18 @ 150 = 18 @ 100
For a quick twin turbo 3.9 should be fine and certainly make a difference :)
18-20% is too much water. It will bog down the ign and loose loads of power. may be if you had 500 or 600 hp this would apply. like i said its dependent on the weight of air flow and fuel.
Scott
Quote from: sdminus18-20% is too much water. It will bog down the ign and loose loads of power. may be if you had 500 or 600 hp this would apply. like i said its dependent on the weight of air flow and fuel.
Scott
Not been on the dyno for a year Scott but the last estimate from a well respected engine builder was at the upper end of that scale with current mods and boost so i guess i\'m aiming in the right area with the amount of water.
Kevin
ASP. My advise is to build the car and have it mapped etc with no water. Then go back and have it re tuned to take advantage of the system. If i wasnt going to tune for water then i would add a small amount of water post inter cooler say 1 gph or less. I would not recomend going pre inter cooler.
if you get stuck sdminus@yahoo.co.uk
Scott
water injection is a lot more in depth than i thought!
good info guys
scott I might need a chat with you when i get my fc run in. if you dont mind that is :)
Well worth reading this lot when you get time, it will help you catch up with some of the theories behind WI.
http://www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/
yes im lost here,tel me in a slow easy to under stand way how to work this out,id like to learn how to do it,air flow?how much fuel?air temp? all these thing matter do thay,
its easy to get some to say 450 hp yep you need this nozzle,learn mode on, why do i need that size,
Quote from: maximtaylorWell worth reading this lot when you get time, it will help you catch up with some of the theories behind WI.
http://www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/
better go get a cupa b4 i start 2 look at that lot,
The water injection forum is very good. Bill Shurvington very clued up on this subject but sadly no long on this forum.
As a rule of thumb most use a 10% fuel to water ratio but i believe the corect way to calculate this is using weight. add to this the air temp and you should be close.
I am still searching for the correct air fuel ratio in realtion to fuel water ratio to achieve optimium power and efficiency. To benfit from water and not loose power you will either have to displace fuel with water or run a tiny amount.
i have not tested my theroys yet but i am learning a **** load in the process.
simply put at 14.7:1 the fuel and air will burn efficently. With a turbo car you add fuel to cool the combustion. Water or water and methanol will enable you to lean the actual fuel air ratio closer to stoich (14.7:1 petrol) than you could otherwise due to the latent heat capacity of the mix. how close you dare go is the question?
Scott
Putting in fail-safes is important as well. You don\'t want the water cutting off and blowing the engine :(
14.7:1 is good for a clean burn, but the ideal \'power\' ratio is richer than that. Around 12:1 - 12.5:1 for piston engines and a tad richer for rotaries imo.
Quote from: sdminussimply put at 14.7:1 the fuel and air will burn efficently. With a turbo car you add fuel to cool the combustion. Water or water and methanol will enable you to lean the actual fuel air ratio closer to stoich (14.7:1 petrol) than you could otherwise due to the latent heat capacity of the mix. how close you dare go is the question?
Scott
Quotesimply put at 14.7:1 the fuel and air will burn efficently. With a turbo car you add fuel to cool the combustion. Water or water and methanol will enable you to lean the actual fuel air ratio closer to stoich (14.7:1 petrol) than you could otherwise due to the latent heat capacity of the mix. how close you dare go is the question?
After speaking to a couple of tuners in Aus Scott i\'m aiming for a A/F ratio of 13.2:1 with a 50/50 water methanol mix on final tune. just taking it slowly down towards that point one stage at a time.
Kevin
Max thats where the experiance comes in to play. :Thumbsup!
I would be interested to hear your thought on the correct WI afr. sdminus@yahoo.co.uk
I have heard of rotaries running 13.0 afr\'s at 20 odd pound of boost.
sorry asp im getting this way off topic mate.
Kev you sound like you and me are shooting in the same zone. This link may be of interest and may well help. There is some great info on this but it is still treated like a dark art but in the correct hands can really help to make your rotary more efficent
Scott
http://not2fast.wryday.com/thermo/water_injection/opt_mass.shtml
Got to agree with you Scott ratio\'s and timing are the two area\'s that are still top secret as regards tuners its a case of gleaning little bits of info here and there and piecing them all together if your a DIY\'er. Does sound like we are aiming in the same area though.
Kevin
scott and kev, have you got wideband sensors set up to check afr, if so what type and do they have interface for lap top
Its sad kevin but true. i could tell you the people that know but they wont share there secrets. one way or the other we will get there. I am lloking at going AI in place of WI. This method is much easier but with slightly less gains but a little bit more pioneering.
My basic problem with the public domain info is the ratios. sound me out but if water is 3 times the heat capacity of petrol then why is it suggested to replace 7% of fuel (1.0 afr) with 10 % water. or am i touching on a subject which is a hush hush with those who really know.
Scott
Stuart i have a LM-1. poor weather this week and the fact i am still waiting on parcel force for the water injection controller from david. When the weather clears i will finish my fuel map then we can play
Scott
13.?? afr what was this n/a ?
Even piston engines don\'t lean out that much in gains for power.
If you want to experiment with afr, on how lean you can go in a quest for power, fit an egt gauge and take your car on the dyno and make the adjustments rather on the road. The dyno & egt gauge will atleast verify whether certain adjustments you have made i.e leaning out to 13.?? afr is good bad or ugly.
Stu running a innovate LC1 and auxbox for A/F ratio\'s and data loggin purposes plus the loggin on the microtech.
kevin
Quote from: aspwhat nozle size are you guys useing,also where have you mount\'d the injector,
I currently run 7.37 gph nozzle, it\'s located in my greddy elbow.
I currently run a 10% ratio of water to fuel.
below is a great mail written by Bob Harris a few years back explaining, in far more lucid prose than I could ever hope for. Key points to note in the text:
1. Water speeds up the key reactions releasing energy to the crank in a sharper peak. This means more power at the wheels. Note the comment that 2/3 of the energy released in combustion comes late in the cycle without water present at the beginning. This is less of a problem in a rotary than a piston, but you still lose leverage on the eccentric (note I haven\'t looked at it from a heat lost to the rotor perspective).
2. Water injection has been shown to give very significant increases in max power
3. At >35% WI it has been shown you can run under boost all the way back to stoich without detonation in piston engines. No reason a rotary shouldn\'t be similar. Extrapolating this you can see that you can also run more advance (more power) and also use AFR to control power output, rather than run stupidly rich just to prevent engine death, or backing off the spark so you loose lots of the HP you paid for.
Thanks Bill
i qoute from RICE. ( a man i really respect as a tuner)
People may not believe this, but I ran 472rwhp on Optimax fuel @ 19.9psi boost 9.0:1 compression engine with 13.7 to 13.9:1 AFR at WOT.
Did it three times and many more times before and after the dyno runs up to 23psi boost (even leaner AFR !!!).
This was with a water ratio of 18% there abouts anyway
Brian running AF ratio,EGT,RPM,TPS and manifold pressure data loggin with the auxbox. In addition to the normal data loggin on the microtech.
Kevin
i need to learn more about fueling my fc engine, when ive built it that is!
do think i should run wat inj with big turbo and big boost even tho its having big front mount, and only being used up the strip
Yes Stu use the Wi and front mount as the lower air temps is only part of what the water injection does for you.
Kevin
can i have my coolingmist kit back then kev?!!!!!!!!!!!!! :spank
scott what kit should i get and how much are they for a
full bridge and big turbo lots of boost
Stuart i would consult the top tuners for advice as i can only coment for my own goals.
I respect Brians and max\'s experiance and knowledge so i would start there unless you wanna spend months looking for a magical number like i have and so far failing.
Scott
Hate to tell you this Stu but the one you sold me\'s about as good as it gets they now do a controller so you can match the WI to the injector duty Cycle and no i\'m not selling it back.
Kevin
Kev i have this controler in the post as we speak/type
Scott
by the time ive got this fc running you 2 will have perfected the art of water injection, then you can set mine up for me flyin up the strip :chat
thats what test and tune days are for!!
Not ordered mine yet but it looks good, let me know how you get on with it. Sounds like we both are searching in the same sort of places for info plus i\'ve been lucky enough to be put in direct contact with a couple of people down under.
Kriss are you okay with your thread getting off subject i can try and separate if you want?
Kevin
haved you tried a highish mix with methonol and what results
From what i have found out the more methanol you add the richer the mixture will become. I have figures some place. This is my current place of reasearch. 100% meth injection.
Scott
Its getting late. Speak soon
Scott
After a lot of reading up and searching i\'ve decided 50/50 by weight is the optimum mix for water methanol. the meths is quite volatile and corrosive in higher concentrations.
Kevin
my mates going on 100%meth on a chevvy v8
we will be down shakespear test and tune 18th 19th this month
share the knowledge..
bring ear defenders :Thumbsup!
[/QUOTE]Methanol does increase octain. Water evaporates, while methanol burns. Because methanol burns, it will add heat into the engine. The water will evaporate, soak up the heat. While the methanol will burn, its still far superior to pump gas as it burns much, much cooler. Ideal mixtures vary from vehicle to vehicle. We have seen crazy gains on just water, water/denatured alochol. We find that 50/50 Methanol/water is the most popular mix.
QuoteA qoute from coolingmists forum
Holts screen wash contains methanol, run it with water at about a 50:50 mix, so if anyone who doesn\'t have direct access to a chemical factory could try that as a first step :Thumbsup! ;)
Paul
Or buy a 200 litre drum of it like I have :)
I don\'t do things by halves!!! Cost me about 80 quid two years ago.
we have an oil drum full to mate!
anyone want any then see me at shakespear next meeting
has anyone run a rotary on 100% methonol in this country yet?
and has anyone had the balls to try nitro in a rotary?
Stuart do you mean full blow methanol injection or methanol injection as an addition to petrol. Im not aware of any full blown meth runners of even the other type yet. When posty gets here there might be some more development
I think andy (scuttleRX) tried nitro in his water injection system
pump methanol, pure
not mixed with petrol, same goes for nitro, the states top drag cars run nitro at unreal horse power ie 4000hp and beyond. they dont last very long mind!
ive heard yank drag lads talk about inlet manifolds being covered with ice using pure methanol because of cooling properties of it under pressure.
they use pure meth on speedway bikes to i think to