Hi all,
I\'m planning on starting my first 13b engine rebuild very soon, DVD is sitting waiting at home (cheers Gary) and i\'m very close to having the bank balance to start looking for an engine to work on.
Now what I want to know is:
Should I wait until I have got an engine before I start ordering rebuild kits and parts?
Carl has kindly agreed to look over any engine I do get hold of, so should I wait until he has had a look before I get the credit card out? It seems lots of people get these kits from overseas so I don\'t want to be waiting months for it after I have the engine.
I\'m really eager to get going but obviously want to do it as cost effectively as possible, so don\'t want to order a load of bits I dont need!
What do people think, and also can i have some links and names for purchasing kits/parts/some extra mechanical talent etc?
p.s I dont have a rex to put the engine in yet, so I am in no rush on this one, I want to do it properly. :)
Dan mate,
Keep me upto date with this please...Would love to give you any help you need with this one mate!! Would gain some experience from it too!
I would say see what Carl says about it...But all rebuild use certain parts, so why not shop around for these bits...If it was me I\'d support a UK tuner for the bits, might cost abit more, but should be alot more forthcoming with help...
How serious you planning??? Porting? If so what stage, etc, etc
Hang on to afew of your bits- such as UIM and Throttle body, etc- will save cash and effort later...You could also start on moddifying and polishing these bits up ready!?
Oh, BTW,your bro said something about a link to his bands music?? Can you send it my way :Thumbs-up and pop round anytime mate!
Rich
Hey rich,
I meant to publicly sing your praises for coming to help shift the shell the other week, and spilling the beans on your top secret project! ;)
I will def keep you informed about this and you are more than welcome to muck in as much as you want.
Might be going to visit davehg if he starts a build before me, and def going to pay carl a visit (he very rapidly responded to a pm by phoning me today, cheers carl) once i have the engine.
i would like to buy from uk suppliers if possible, cos im impatient and dont like waiting for importing things!
Not got an engine yet so i dont know what bits will be with it when i do, we\'ll have to wait and see, prob will still have a lot of my bits by then, might keep hold of the turbo\'s now I think about it too...
My bro\'s band can be found on //www.myspace.com/wereonlygonnadiemusic but im afraid they have removed the tracks to alter the vocals, should be up again soon though. :):):)
http://rotaryresources.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=DreamShop&file=viewitem&id=15
http://www.atkinsrotary.com/store/customer/home.php?cat=437
i used atkins for apex seals side seals and corner seals
rotary resources for gasket kit and o ring kit
anybody wanting to use 3mm seals in there rotors give me a shout as our miller is now set up for them
hI dandan ,, I am in the same situation, I took the bull by the horns today and anoyed a Mazda dealer for what most of us all want to know. If you look at my posting in the 2nd gen section you will see , Also keep an eye on when I update it with prices. That will tell if it is as cheap to buy in this country or from abroard. Which is what i m trying to find out...
nice one cheers peeps.
Ain\'t it great when we are all pulling in the same direction? :)
I\'ll be sure to keep checking up and updating on what I am up to as well.
Well you will definitely need a gasket set, so order that first.
What were the symptoms of the bad motor?
3mm apex seals with 2 piece springs
solid 3mm corner seals
corner seal springs
side seals and springs
all 381 dollars from atkins rotary
full oil o ring set is around 100 dollars
gasket set around 200 dollars
from rotary resources
if you go on any rotary forums in the states most of the builders out there use atkins apex seals- pineaple, racing beat etc use 3mm seals on all 13b rebuilds
your looking at £500 for a full overhaul kit and i think you get the rebuild vid in that
dont be scared and have a go mate ;)
you could buy a stock engine, use new rotor housings and new side housings(aluminium ones) from racing beat, i think they are around 800 dollars each.
this would reduce the weight of the engine by a **** load :Thumbs-up
the std cast iron side housings way a ton
I\'d buy a motor first and strip it down as you may find that you need lots of bits you didnt think you would need, whilst cleaning it all up your rebuild kit can then arrive.
martiny, i dont have a motor yet, so i dont know what the cause of death will be, i\'ll just see what i can get.
Stuart, not sure I want to go for 3mm tips, if 2mm is good enough for mazda, its good enough for me! plus then i dont need to get the rotors milled etc etc
Also for now I am using this as a learning excercise so ill stick with standard housings, i want to do this as cheaply as possible, maybe future builds will involve bigger tips, different housings, porting etc etc...
I think ill have a view of the dvd tonight, not suprisingly its probably got loads of advice about parts etc on there!
Cheers everyone!
Well I dont see the rush if you havent even got an egnine yet!
Have a look at the DVD, it tells you waht to measure and look for to see what parts need replacing.
Common failures, I think are..
1 - Coolant loss caused by corrosion on side housing, so you will propably need a side housing or 2 in this case. If the engine overheated, you will need new Rotor housings ( the chrome one), too
2 - Low compression, caused by Apex seal wear... Apex seals, springs.
3 - Apex seal or corner seal failure ( Usually detonation) - Things will be a mess ! Rotor housing, possibly side housing, mybe a new Rotor or two, and possibly side seals.
On a high mileage engine it would be prudent to replace the oil Rings and rubbers.
Quote from: stuart wizyhttp://rotaryresources.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=DreamShop&file=viewitem&id=15
http://www.atkinsrotary.com/store/customer/home.php?cat=437
i used atkins for apex seals side seals and corner seals
rotary resources for gasket kit and o ring kit
anybody wanting to use 3mm seals in there rotors give me a shout as our miller is now set up for them
How much do you charge for boring out from 2mm to 3mm? thanks
Quote from: antrosserHow much do you charge for boring out from 2mm to 3mm? thanks
to mill 2 rotors out to 3mm with .004" max clearence its £100 to do on a cnc machine with a carbide cutter.
the original slot is picked up dead on centre line so the new slot is central to your corner seal bore, this is done for each slot individually.
if u want pics emailing to u with the clock up procedure we use then give us a shout.
Quote from: stuart wizyhttp://rotaryresources.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=DreamShop&file=viewitem&id=15
http://www.atkinsrotary.com/store/customer/home.php?cat=437
i used atkins for apex seals side seals and corner seals
rotary resources for gasket kit and o ring kit
anybody wanting to use 3mm seals in there rotors give me a shout as our miller is now set up for them
Have you had any Problems with RA Water seals? I\'ve been presure Testing every Rebuild i\'ve done recently and they are Poor to put it Mildly, i\'ve stopped using them and gone to OE or Atkins kits (which have OE water seals in), If you compair the Two makes you will see why the RA ones are realy Quite small next to the OE seals.
I still don\'t quite Understand why you like 3mm seals i was told by a number of Tuners that 3mm\'s are for getting bad rotors back to tolarance and have very little or No recorded Performance gain. ;) While on the subject of seals if you buy Apex\'s from atkins get them Cryo Treated its another thing that does\'nt have alot of Back up but my Old man works in the Aerospace Industry and he raves about it, But more importantly Judge ITO Recomended as he uses them in all his Big HP engines including his own Drag car so thats good enough for me :)
ive just bought original water seal kits from mazda and used everything else from rotary resourses.
3mm tips can take a little more det than 2mm but dont seal as good or so they say.
im only using 3mm tips in the fc drag car because it will be taking a lot of stick with high boost from a t45 and just thought it would make it a little stronger when passing over huge exaust ports where theres not much surface area suport for the tip.
just gives me more confidence its not going to pop with solid corner seals and 3mm tips, and i can mill them out myself which helps.
ive got a big turbo, NOS and drive it hard too, but been advised to stick with the 2mm. other cars of this spec perform well with the 2mm so i thought why spend the extra money! lol. dont want my engine to go bang tho :-(
Quote from: stuart wizy3mm tips can take a little more det than 2mm but dont seal as good or so they say.
im only using 3mm tips in the fc drag car because it will be taking a lot of stick with high boost from a t45 and just thought it would make it a little stronger when passing over huge exaust ports where theres not much surface area suport for the tip.
just gives me more confidence its not going to pop with solid corner seals and 3mm tips, and i can mill them out myself which helps.
Ok, that does\'nt make sense, I can understand how you think they are stronger is a common Misconception but do you think the Extra weight is going to help at high Rpm/Load going over a Big exhaust port? If it is staitionary i could Understand why some one would think a bigger thicker seal is better but add Rpm and the centrifugal force will increase the more Weight you add so in turn the more force it will apply to the Housing so in a High HP application the Apex\'s stand more risk of it Pushing so hard it has no Lube between the seal and Housing also causing extra Friction and as you say possably pushing into the Exhaust Port. You want to go Lighter not heavier, ceramics and get it well set up. There are also well known people using Big exhaust ports and 2mm mazda seals in very fast Sevens.
Quote from: antrosserive got a big turbo, NOS and drive it hard too, but been advised to stick with the 2mm. other cars of this spec perform well with the 2mm so i thought why spend the extra money! lol. dont want my engine to go bang tho :-(
TBH i\'m not a fan of NOS its Unpridictable but there are people out there Running it but if you have a Decent Single Turbo and Run around 400 you aint ever going to Use NOS its a Gimic
If you look at whats going on in the states and in australia most of the rebuilds use 3mm seals, like grizly says though u can always use your rotors on a rebuild even if your slots have worn over tolerance , ie there never scrap, just mill them out or buy new rotors! which is cheapest then?
why are all the top apex seal producers making 3mm tips all over the world?
ive never herd of anyone with a motor running 3mm tips in the uk, correct me if im wrong but knowone ever talks about them.
Hi,
I run 3mm steels. I was running 3mm ceramics, until one cracked. I regret using 3mm, as i can not safely run high rpm. I have so far only run her upto 7500 on the dyno, where power is still climbing at a 50 deg angle and not peaking. If you have a good map, 2mm are good.
J
grizly mate, i would love to go ceramics but have u seen the price!!
this motor is being built cheap with second hand rotor housings with 4 cnc milled bridge ports and a totaly custom inlet runner and plenum that u wont find anywhere cause its my own idea, the inlet ports are nearly a 1/4 bigger on each side housing and its got 4 - 50mm tube runners feeding them bolted straight onto the engine with a milled out matched inlet manifold.
I dont even know if its gonna work yet, it might not even wanna rev cause the air speeds to slow through the runners.
If it does work though this motor has the potential to make some serious power and then I can start thinking about carbon and ceramic tips when its proved itself.
Stuart, having an engine which will potentialy make its power upwards of 8grand is great. You will not be able to realize that power with 3mm steels. 3mm ceramics will do the job, and are fantastic. NRS ceramics are not that expensive as far as ceramics go.
Cheers,
John
Ok use stock Mazda seals then.
Ceramics are the last great Hope of the Rx World but Mazda OE seals are the Back bone. If i was building a Big HP engine Tomorow i\'d use OE 2pc 2mm Seals. Its funny i have a set of 2mm ceramics for my triple and i am seriously thinking of selling them to use stock 2mm\'s (Not Joking) Every one who is anyone uses OE seals in the Big motors if not they have Ceramics but the only 3mm\'s you will see will be Ceramics.
Quote from: stuart wizyIf you look at whats going on in the states and in australia most of the rebuilds use 3mm seals, like grizly says though u can always use your rotors on a rebuild even if your slots have worn over tolerance , ie there never scrap, just mill them out or buy new rotors! which is cheapest then?
why are all the top apex seal producers making 3mm tips all over the world?
ive never herd of anyone with a motor running 3mm tips in the uk, correct me if im wrong but knowone ever talks about them.
Thats it in a nut shell, 3mm seals are for Over Tolerance Rotors, all the Top Apex seal people make them becouse of this reason.
People think there Stronger becouse there Thicker it don\'t work like that in High RPM Motors.
got any info or links for 3mm ceramics then guys?
why did your ceramics chip then john? and why cant u run higher than 7500rpm?