Hi All
Thanks to you all for the help on Saturday at the old school meet.
For those who dont know, my current setup is:
71 RX-2 sedan with Ford Pinto power.
I have, in the shed, a series 2 , 12A RX-7 Motor , Gearbox and prop shaft. One problem with fitting this engine is the question of engine mounts. Had a look at the Rx2s 3s and 4 on Saturday, and it seem the best thing to do is to modify my cross-member to make it into the 1973/4 style crossmember to take the RX-7 engine mount.
Now, I have toyed with the idea of using the RX-3 style mount which is an extra cross-member, fits under the anti-roll bar mounts if I remember correctly.
QUESTION - If I used the RX-3 style setup, will I have to replace the sump, or turn it round?
I reckon the only way to do it is to pull that pinto out and get your engine a box sat where you want it, then see what needs moving. Thats the plan for the 323 anyway, the variation on engines, X-members, gearboxes etc. seems to make nearly every swap slightly different.
Mike, I see you bought an RX-3 cross-member. Your car is obviously different to mine, but what was the thinking behind this?
For me, the possible advantage of doing this is the the gearlever might line up. If I use the standard 74 mounts, then I will have to either cut the tunnel and or modify the gear selector extender.
I bought an rx3 crossmember as it bolts up onto my chassis rails as the 323 floorpan is basically a short rx3/818 floorpan
I don\'t think the rx3 X-member will bolt into an rx2, you probably be better making one out some 50mm box section and welding that in between the chassis rails.
am I right in thinking that the rx2 mounted on the side of the front cover and not from as per most of other oldschool rotors ?
Quote from: MikeLMRam I right in thinking that the rx2 mounted on the side of the front cover and not from as per most of other oldschool rotors ?
Mike the 2 was side mounted, on twin dizzy motors. The front housing had the engine mounts on it. Then 73/74 they changed it to single Dizzy and mounts on the front cover, RX-7 1st gens.
My options are:
1) drill and tap threads into the front housing to accomodate an RX-2 mounting.
2) Cut 71 RX-2 mountings off existing cross-member and fabricate mountings and weld to existing cross-member.
3) Fit cross member under anti-roll bar mounts.
My most likely option, I think, is No 2. I was just toying with the idea of 3) to try and save me cutting the floor. ( thats precious Mazda metal there, you know !)
you are right on all occasions Mike........It is easier to try and get a 2 crossmember,if that fails then remove all engine mount towers on existing crossmember and motor........mock install motor to required position,remanufacture crossmember mounts and front engine mount.This is the procedure we have followed for years and it is really quite easy to do. :guinness
Ok, well prop shaft is out, gearbox is loose and coming out tonight.
Guess what, the floor has been cut towards the rear already, so that makes decisions easier, then, eh?
Well I might be able to now play with the gearbox and engine positioning to help the prop shaft.
The shaft that came out, has a bearing like the RX-2 shaft, but it seems ot be in a different place. The RX-7 doesnt have a bearing. So, next questions is..
What prop shaft should I use? Do RX-3 and 4 shafts have a bearing?
Does the 2 have a longer wheelbase than the 7? I suspect so.
Will the longer gearbox from the 7 remove the necessity to have the bearing? I wouldnt have thought so, and I would be more comfortable drving it at 80 with a bearing, I think.
I will probably have to get a shaft modified one way or another anyway, so maybe the shaft that come out could me modified to fit somehow.
what sort of gear box are you running? I would\'ve thought a later model 7 box will be similar in length if not the same as the RX2 box.
I\'d say the prop shaft will have to be modified in some way or another.
Is your engine & box mated together? if so you could take your measurements before hand and that would give you a better idea of positioning.
Jase
Put the motor and gearbox in,measure prop and have a solid one made....you dont need the bearing bud......solid prop is good for the speeds you will do.had a solid prop on all the race cars and they survived Welcom main straight,8600rpm 5th gear !!!!!!!!!! Stop fussing around and just do It !!!!!!! :spank
Martin, have you read this ? ... lots of ideas and photos.
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=503695&page=1
Jase, the RX-7 gearlever sits further back than the 2 box, usually requires the floor to be cut, but i dont know if the actual box is longer/shorter.
Era, thanks for that, I guess the thing is to get it properly balanced.
Mike, yes I have been reading that thread, I will look again and see if I can find out about the shaft.
Had a look in the workshop manuals. RX-3 does not have a bearing, I wonder if the RX-4 has?
Era, if you say we dont need one, I wonder what made Mazda put one there, then? Maybe it just makes things run smoother?
Hi Martin,
RX-4 does have a centre bearing, RX-3 does not, however we\'ve used both centre bearing and single piece props on the race RX-3 with no noticeable difference. The way I\'d go about it is to get the engine and box in first and see what gap is left, then tape measure in hand check other mazda\'s to see if one from a scrapyard might fit, possibly RWD 626. If that fails you can get one made up for not too much, if you supply both UJ ends of the propshaft and ask them to make to a particular length, it should be trivial for a specialist company. Thinking about it series 1 and 2 RX-7 should have the correct ends, but I\'m guessing it will be too short.
The RX-7 gearbox shifter can be mover forward about 3 to 4 inches by cutting the selector rod and remounting, difficult to describe in words, probably easier to give me a ring with a gearbox in front of you and I\'ll explain. Alternatively, I\'ve got a 4 speed RX-4 gearbox which would drop straight in, depends how much you want your overdrive.
Good luck :3gears-rh
Thanks a lot, Ray. With our fuel prices, I REALLY want that 5th gear!. I have the 7 prop in the shed, so, yes, I will look at the ends and U joints and see. I cant remember having heard that these were unreliable, so I doubt if they changed it for the 7.
Here is....
Engine nearly ready to come out.
Exhaust - I couldnt get one of the nuts loose, so angle grinder came out!
Tunnel after prop shaft removal.
Cool get stuck in Martin. The underside of the car looks great!
Ray, those rx4 boxes are real rare these day with the genuine bellhousings in oz getting really good money for. They are strong boxes too. I really love the way the old school section of the forum has come alove with all you guys. It is great.
cheers, michael.
Has your car got the straight front crossmember or the horseshoe front cross member?
If it is the straight crossmember, The RX7 sump fits nicely (It better, Im using one!) If Its the Horseshoe, Twin dizzy sump time! (Reversed sump to RX7) I know someone in Oz who has a few (He does/Did build my motors)
Modify the rx3 engine mount crossmember to fit the rx2 (Gives more exhaust space, I think jap performance in Oz sells them cheap,there pretty good with that stuff), However, the RX7 front mount bracket thingy plate is short by about 2 and a bit inches. Easy to "adjust" with 6mm steel plate and a gusset or 2.
The motor will be in the correct position when the oil filler pipe is in line with the Shock tower strutt bolts.
The Rx7 gearshifter is in the right spot when you cut the gearstick housing and the shaft so the rear bolts are in the front mount holes. (about 3" shorter) You will need to redo the gearbox crossmember.
Also, you want a 929 stationwagon tailshaft (Thats if you can find one!) , Unless you want to run the car low (Or silly suspension travel), Then you need the 2 piece shaft.
If you need any more help, just yell. (Ive gone through this all before)
The cross member is the horseshoe shape, or banana shape. I have read that its possible to just turn the RX-7 sump around and drill some extra hole in it for the bolts? Maybe this affects the pick-up, though?
I will now have to get that 7 engine out of the shed, and start having a look, so I know what I am talking about !
Kaptainbalistik, I remember we spoke at the Autosolo, and I now know what you meant about the crossmembers that go under the anti-roll bar mounts. I think thats better if installing a 13b. For me, I think fabricating mounts onto the horseshoe crossmember is a better idea.
Are you coming to the FDMC Autosolo in March?
Gearbox out, engine is ready to come out. I have borrowed an A frame and pulley system, thanks Andrew ( Jinx)
Yep , Im busted! ( Peter\'s the name by the way)
Is that the Borough 19 sprint? (Hope to, Need to find some old rims and tyres and get some neg camber pins, Oh and change the clutch!)
Has the crossmember still got the mounts on it? If so, you may be able to use a set of cosmo engine mounts. (Thats if the motor has the side mount stud holes ). If not, I would go for front engine mount. (Mines a 12A and it is a simple job to fit the motor.)
You can redrill the sump and reverse it (there is a leak issue though) or I think you can use a rx4 sump . The twin dissy oil pickup is about 20 cm long and bent so it runs close to the bottom of the motor.
If you are not worried about originality, Moving the motor back makes a big difference to the handling on a RX2.
Also, You will need to dimple (Actually, quite a big bash in) the firewall/tunnel to clear the clutch lever on the top of the motor. (The heater is right behind , but it can be made to clear neatly) This is nessisary when the motor is in the original spot too as the twin dizzy clutch lever is where the starter motor is on a RX7.
Finally if the car has always been a manual, you will have to tap in the tunnel on the passenger side to clear the starter.
As far as I remember, The RX7 radiator can fit.
Quote from: KaptainbalistikYep , Im busted! ( Peter\'s the name by the way)
Is that the Borough 19 sprint? (Hope to, Need to find some old rims and tyres and get some neg camber pins, Oh and change the clutch!)
Has the crossmember still got the mounts on it? If so, you may be able to use a set of cosmo engine mounts. (Thats if the motor has the side mount stud holes ). If not, I would go for front engine mount. (Mines a 12A and it is a simple job to fit the motor.)
You can redrill the sump and reverse it (there is a leak issue though) or I think you can use a rx4 sump . The twin dissy oil pickup is about 20 cm long and bent so it runs close to the bottom of the motor.
If you are not worried about originality, Moving the motor back makes a big difference to the handling on a RX2.
Also, You will need to dimple (Actually, quite a big bash in) the firewall/tunnel to clear the clutch lever on the top of the motor. (The heater is right behind , but it can be made to clear neatly) This is nessisary when the motor is in the original spot too as the twin dizzy clutch lever is where the starter motor is on a RX7.
Finally if the car has always been a manual, you will have to tap in the tunnel on the passenger side to clear the starter.
As far as I remember, The RX7 radiator can fit.
Yeah March 19th. Check it out on the FDMC website.
Ok, I know about the clutch and the starter issue, so I will have to bend the tunnel a little and grind down that clutch lever.
Engine mounts from which Cosmo? This still mean I have to tap and drill a thread i the engine to tak a side mount , right? Then I have to find an RX-2 side mount that goes on the engine!
I think its easier foer me to try and weld need mounting points on the cross-member to take the front mount style.
Was thinking about what you said about the bearing in the prop shaft. Unlikely I will change the ride height. So I think I do actually need the bearing, as it rides so high! There is quite an angle on it. Maybe Era, and Dave have never had a problem because all their cars have been lowered, so the shaft would run "straighter" I think.
The shaft that came off has a bearing, so I will try and use that one.
Ford engine is now removed. Now I took the "good" engine out of the shed. It turns over fine, and it feels like its got compression. I might connect the gearbox and starter, and do a compression test before I fit everything, what do you think?
I now notice that the front pulley has been removed :-( I have another engine, so I can just take the pulley off that, but there was a thread on here a little while ago, with a link to Mazdatrix, about the needle roller bearings falling out of place if the pulley is removed.
Will I have to remove the front cover now to re-align the bearings and fit the pulley?
Its a 1983 12A
http://www.mazdatrix.com/faq/pulley.htm
ah found it.
Damn, front cover has to come off.:-(
Ah well, I think I need to remove the sump anyway.
HB Cosmo motor brackets to be precise! (Ill still go the front mounts!)
Ok, what are the implications for my oil pickup if I turn the sump around?
you need to extend it so it sits in the middle of the sump bowl.
If you can mig weld (or tig) its just a pain.
You need a piece of tube the same Dia and thickness as the original about 30cm long.
Stainless would be good if you can weld well.
Hacksaw cuts into the pipe so you can bend it into a tight bend (A la jap titanium exhaust style! Works very well ) and make a new pickup pipe, and weld the old ends back on
Or use a RX4 pickup.
You may also have to dimple the sump to give enough clearance for the 1st pickup bend.
The factory manual has some good pics, (Mine\'s in a shipping container in Aust , sorry!)
Actually, Its got pics of the mounts as well!
PS take the thrust plate off as well because the end float spacer can jam in the back thrust bearing when the pulley is removed. Also , check the Endfloat because the new pulley will Affect it. (You probably knew that!)
Thanks for all the help. I didnt realise the new pulley would affect the float, thanks for that.
Right, calling Carl / Dave Nixon, - does ayone have an RX-4 oil pickup please?
I can MIG, but not all that well. I s\'pose I could get a pro shop to do it if I found the bits.
Next problem looming.
The plate that goes under the gearbox, to mount it, has a big step, as if the RH side mounts much higher than the LH side.
However, where the body holds the gearbox mount is even on both sides, so I cant use the standard RX-7 mounting. I guess it wont be difficult to make one.
I have put a 79 Rx-7 transmission with an 85 12a into my Rx-2. Original driveshaft, original shifter position, engine forward about an inch.
New crossmember from a 1974 Rx-2 (but an Rx-3 one would work just as nice).
Let me know if I can help. I do have some pictures.
Series 1 RX7 box... Damm I forgot that one!
I used a 2-3 mm wall 1.5" box tube for the rear mount, cut so it wedges between the chassis rails. Just put 3mm bearer plates in the footwells (Harness mount size). Use about 3mm of washers to space the gearbox up to the right height.
I also use a pair of bolts on each side, to stop the crossmember bolts coming undone.
Martin,
If you\'re wanting to to mount the engine back further than standard, but still keep the standard shifter position, you could use a gearbox extension housing from a 626 or Mazda 2000, I know I\'ve just got one! The stick is about another 3 inches further forward than a series 1, so pushing it 6/7 inches further forward than your series 2 box. The attachment shows it pretty clearly.
Ray
Just put a 13B from an rx4 in there. Cross member bolts straight up.
we must be due for an update soon Martin :) ... hows it going ? Did you decide on your engine mountings ?
Thanks for the hurry-up Mike. Have done nothing, so no update. Got a few diy jobs on, etc, but hopefully can start on it again soon.
Come on get cracking
Right, boys, I am going to get moving again. done the DIY, done the tax return, and a whole lot of other things that became priorities.
Going to start with replacing the pulley and setting the end-float. Then I will put engine and box together, and see how things are going to work out with the sump, engine mountings, and oil pick up.
Yaaaaaaaaaaay be running by tomorrow afternoon mate!!
Keep us updated on progress. There are not enough rx-2\'s in the uk so it is a pretty special car.
cheers,michael.
Right, well i broke the Metrich "breaker" bar, and I have bent my Gedore breker bar, and bent a ring spanner, trying to loosen the nut on the spare (rusted) engine! I am off to but spmething stronger !
front pulley bolt ?
I ended up using an impact wrench to get mine appart!
Ok pulley came off with 3/4 inch breaker bar.
have checked end-float. Not actually measured it, but there is just a tiny amount of play on the shaft.
Also modified sump by drilling new holes and elongating existing, so it can go on backwards.
Put the motor in the car to have a look at ideas for engine mounts.
SOme questions now ... please help !
1) Should the Motor sit exactly in the middle of the car?
2) I have some brass pipe that might work to extend the oil pickup. But I guess I would have to braize it then? I only have an arc and mig welder.
Maybe I could just bend the pipe/s to the right shapes and take the bits to my local body shop and see if they would braize it up for me?
I dont see why the engine should sit in the middle of the car but in an RX2 etc there shouldnt be aby reason why it shouldnt!
Post up a few pics of its progress martin.
cheers, michael.
the engine should sit in the middle of the car, it doesn\'t HAVE to but I think they are pretty much central in the rx7 and the rx3. The engine in the 323 is offset to the passenger side by a few inches :D
Hi Martin,
When you took the front pulley off,did you keep the engine on its flywheel with the front pulley pointing upwards?
It is critical to not let the shaft move until the new pulley is on and tight,or you can end up with one or both of the thrust bearings slipping out of their proper place.
Regards
Carl
Thanks guys.
1) Ok , middle of the car it is then.
2) Still need help here, if I use brass, I will have to Braize it, yes?
Carl.
I have 2 engines, 1 good, 1 bad! The good one had no pulley, so I took the pulley off the bad 1. Now I needed to take the sump off to turn it round anyway, so this morning I removed the sump, and the front cover . I took off the distributor drive, the key, counterweight and the oil pump sprocket. I had read about the torrington bearings falling down (on the Mazdatrix site). So I checked they were in their correct place, and then re-assembled, and fitted the pulley, without the front cover. I check that there is play in the whole assembly. I didnt measure it, but it is just a tiny bit of play.
I removed the pulley and fitted the front cover. Just painting the pulley and I will fit it again. Mind you, as I type this I realise I had better remove the cover and check it again, seeing as I have had the pulley off again, and, yes I have had the motor in all sorts of positions while modifying the sump!
Martin, we MIG welded my modified pickup. It is hard but not impossible to make a leak proof weld with a MIG set but it can be done if you are a good welder. it\'s just a case of finding a correct sized tube (if you have a second pickup that is a good source)
look no leaks :D (not tested the engine yet, but i can\'t see the pickup leaking if the miles of weld in the sump don\'t (not the 1st one we have MIG welded and none leak)
Yeah yeah, I would have a go if I had the right mild steel tubing, --- I want to use brass connecting to mild steel, - I cant Mig that.. or can I? Will look in the welding book later !
Martin,
Why not pop over to see me,I might have a pick up that will do the job.
Regards
Carl
Ok Carl, thats actually a good idea.
We could look at my FD cooling system at the same time !
Quote from: MartinyI want to use brass connecting to mild steel, - I cant Mig that
NO !:guinness
Hi Carl (your email in your advert above is bouncing)
There might be an opportunity for me to pop down on Tuesday to see you.
I would be interested in an oil-pickup - I will bring my sump cover with as it has an adapter in it, I think for oil to return from a turbo.
Could we also test my cooling system on the FD?
What time do you open?, I will endeavour to be there as early as possible.
Martin Yates
Well, I took my sump and pick-up to Carl back in Feb, and he had a look and confirmed that he doesnt have and RX-4 pickup lying around.
So I left it with him so he can try and make me something.
Yesterday fitted the pulley and I have painted the timing marks bright white so I dont lose them again, and to help me set the timing ( If i ever get as far as trying to start it !)
Quote from: RayHi Martin,
RX-4 does have a centre bearing, RX-3 does not, however we\'ve used both centre bearing and single piece props on the race RX-3 with no noticeable difference. The way I\'d go about it is to get the engine and box in first and see what gap is left, then tape measure in hand check other mazda\'s to see if one from a scrapyard might fit, possibly RWD 626. If that fails you can get one made up for not too much, if you supply both UJ ends of the propshaft and ask them to make to a particular length, it should be trivial for a specialist company. Thinking about it series 1 and 2 RX-7 should have the correct ends, but I\'m guessing it will be too short.
The RX-7 gearbox shifter can be mover forward about 3 to 4 inches by cutting the selector rod and remounting, difficult to describe in words, probably easier to give me a ring with a gearbox in front of you and I\'ll explain. Alternatively, I\'ve got a 4 speed RX-4 gearbox which would drop straight in, depends how much you want your overdrive.
Good luck :3gears-rh
Hi Ray
I am at the stage where I need to do this piece now. If I can do your mod for the gear lever, then I dont need to mod the prop shaft, and I can keep the centre bearing.
How do I get your number, Ray, I cant send you a PM. Perhaps email me your number at martinyates@ukf.net
Thanks!
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showpost.php?p=327523&postcount=42
Hey Martin, hows this comming along? Its an awsome project :chat
Hey the project has been stuck for ages, but its getting going again now !
Gearbox housing modified, the prop shaft sits nearly straight coming out the gearbox. Have nearly finished making the gearbox mounting. The original mounting points are about 30 mm out of line, so the gearbox is sitting a bit forward, but the oil filler neck is more or less lined up with the shock towers, and I think that is correct. Anyway, where it sits now means I can use my existing prop shaft, without modifying it.
So gearbox, engine, and prop shaft are temporarliy lined up in their postions. I have started making the engine mountings. I have made some plates that fit the shape of the cross-member. (currently only tacked onto cross-member.) Then the rubber mounts go on that, and then the front mount bar from RX-7 will connect to the rubbers. .
So, now that the gearbox is on its mounting, I can remove the engine again, then I can weld up the plated to my cross- member nice and strong ( I hope!).
Ignition challenge next. After trawling through the shed, I now discover i have no distributor, and have ordered an electronic one.
Will I need the ingiter? How do I wire up the igniter to the coils and the distributor? My haynes manual doesnt show the circuit.
Great thread Martin. Proper car modding, not just screwing on a plastic nose and shiny wheels! I wouldn\'t know what to do with anything that had a distributor attached to it :-) I\'d probably break it in frustration as well! Good luck with the project.
Quote from: MartinyIgnition challenge next. After trawling through the shed, I now discover i have no distributor, and have ordered an electronic one.
Will I need the ingiter? How do I wire up the igniter to the coils and the distributor? My haynes manual doesnt show the circuit.
an electronic dizzy should have two igniter\'s bolted to the side of it, both igniters have two connections, a C connection and a B connection. One is to the Battery and one to the Coil ;) no idea which is which :Giggle
best check that info before wiring it all up though
Thanks Mike. Between the RX-2 diagram ( with an error) and the RX-7 one, I think I have it working. Except, as far as I can see, only the Leading has a condenser... does that seem right?
Exhaust manifold nearly finished.
Today will clean up Carb and maybe see if it will start.
Oh dear , it wont start. No compression on front rotor, 4 bar max on the rear.
This is with some oil down the carb, too! :-(
So , I have to rebuild it. It lay in the shed for 3 years, and it was lying somewhere else before, that, so I guess I was optimistic expecting it to run?
Can I still make Retro show 7th July????
Quote from: MartinyOh dear , it wont start. No compression on front rotor, 4 bar max on the rear.
This is with some oil down the carb, too! :-(
So , I have to rebuild it. It lay in the shed for 3 years, and it was lying somewhere else before, that, so I guess I was optimistic expecting it to run?
Can I still make Retro show 7th July????
Do miracles happen:Hammer I\'m looking out my window as I type this Martin and I\'m sorry to say I dont see no pigs flying over head :Giggle unless you meant july 7th 2008 ??????:rollin
oi, have a little faith, baby!
Quote from: MartinyCan I still make Retro show 7th July????
YES U CAN, get a 1st gen off ebay and use its engine in the 2
Might be quicker, but I think I need to try and fix this one :-(
Thought I had a 54 socket, but alas, it only arrived today. Jason is correct, its unrealistic, so, Rotorstock next goal.
mullins that was good advice, I have found an engine! Its touch and go, I might juuuuuuuuust make it. (the main thing I have to do now is make an exhaust!)
Good find Martin :D
Quote from: Martinymullins that was good advice, I have found an engine! Its touch and go, I might juuuuuuuuust make it. (the main thing I have to do now is make an exhaust!)
I hear them pig\'s I was on about are on the runway ready for take off:cool
:3gears-lh
Yep, I havent heard from my engine seller, so Jason, you probably wont see any flying pigs !
Quote from: MartinyYep, I havent heard from my engine seller, so Jason, you probably wont see any flying pigs !
dont give up, you\'ve got this far, still got 2 weeks mate :Thumbsup!
You\'re not a million miles away from me, do you want a loan of a 12a?
That would be great, I am away this week till Thursday, could I collect Fri night by any chance?
Give me a call 02082980636
Well, had a chat with Mullins, it would be great to borrow the bridgeport engine, now all I need is a radiator!
Johnathan was going to supply me a radiator and an engine - just trying to arrange a time to collect, thats all !
may i ask to how your geting on with this one you havent updated it for some time or is there anather thread
hope all is well with the 2:D
Thanks for the interest, bud!
I have spent many a weekend replacing the engine in the FD, so this project has been on low priority, early next year, watch for more progress !