Hi guys,
I\'ve been reading through the FAQs and questions lately on cooling systems and there seems to be many references to diagnosing water seal failure via campagne bubbles. This got me thinking.
My car starts great, the compression test results are fine and this led me to believe a re-build was done before export (FD covering 52K miles). I always get a bit of smoke on start up then it goes. It took it this was just to do with running the car infrequently. I thought i\'d test for the old bubbles.
Removed rad cap and started car and noticed a very very small stream of bubbles from the very bottom of the neck. It stops and starts but it is sooo small it wouldn\'t even photograph to show you. It doesn\'t even disturb the surface of the coolant. Is even a few bubbles a sign a failure. Just replaced my thermo 5 miles ago, and have been burping the system, so dont know if its still an airlock?
What do you think? How much is too much? Am I just paranoid (for a change!).
Chris
Very poor picture if it helps. Arrow marks where the v.small bubbles appear. This picture was took when they were present, so as you can see they aren\'t that big or numerous.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/D2BBA/champagne.jpg)
Any thoughts?
I\'d guess it\'s nothing to worry about. I did a few thousand miles with mine doing an impression of a boiling kettle before finally having the rebuild done and it was still running ok - just got sick of constant top-ups!
Does the car overheat during normal driving? If so (and there\'s no external leaks) it\'s worth further investigation. If not, you\'re just being paranoid :)
Quote from: D2BBAVery poor picture if it helps. Arrow marks where the v.small bubbles appear. This picture was took when they were present, so as you can see they aren\'t that big or numerous.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/D2BBA/champagne.jpg)
Any thoughts?
Quote from: iaintI\'d guess it\'s nothing to worry about. I did a few thousand miles with mine doing an impression of a boiling kettle before finally having the rebuild done and it was still running ok - just got sick of constant top-ups!
Cheers mate,
Just needed to know how many bubbles people were getting prior to failure, and that answered the bill!!!! The rest of the posts just pointed to bubbles, not the kettle style!
Will give the car a couple of good runs over weekend to see what happens!
Thanks
Chris
I\'ve got a suspicious one for you: Milky goop in the oil filler neck ( symptoms of a head gasket failure on a piston engine) but yet no water is being used?
sounds a bit Kift, could it be down to the oil, as it started just after an oil chainge?!
Papping my pants about the reactions!!
Jono
Quote from: Jono FD3I\'ve got a suspicious one for you: Milky goop in the oil filler neck ( symptoms of a head gasket failure on a piston engine) but yet no water is being used?
sounds a bit Kift, could it be down to the oil, as it started just after an oil chainge?!
Papping my pants about the reactions!!
Jono
This has been covered before - seems to be pretty common. Personally, I\'ve had this on both my FDs, a 92 UK and an 02 import. Unless there\'s a huge quantity, probably nothing to worry about. :)
Also there is a hell of a lot more moisture in the air this time of year!
Its a very strange one indeed, if you have a power fc keep an eye on the reading for the water temp, so if the water does disappear somewhere you can see it straight away and stop the car before you do loads of damage.
Saved me when my rad had a small split in it last year :god
But keep checking and see if this continues frequently.
Also is it the pic quality or does the water look really dirty ???
Hi guv,
The car is running almost pure coolant. Its a funny off-red colour. Just changed her, so its as clean as you can get!!!!
Heard many people to say to run pure coolant, however I have topped up with water on occassion. Anyone else got any thoughts on this?
Got a GReddy water temp gauge, which I spend more time looking at than the road!, Hopefully this will give me an idea if temps are getting too high!
Cheers
Chris
Quote from: D2BBAHi guv,
The car is running almost pure coolant. Its a funny off-red colour. Just changed her, so its as clean as you can get!!!!
Heard many people to say to run pure coolant, however I have topped up with water on occassion. Anyone else got any thoughts on this?
Recently read about this - the best cooling is all water, but not really suitable for all year road use. Water is an amazing molecule, and has a very high capacity for heat. A mix of water and coolant is the best allrounder - it helps dissapate heat, while protecting against freezing, and will also contain corrosion inhibitors. Going pure coolant doesn\'t give you any further benefit - indeed it may have its downsides - a bigger hit in your wallet for no reason, but because the pure coolant is actually more viscous than water, you will probably get a poorer cooling effect, since it cannot flow as fast, nor contact surfaces as efficiently. Cavitation may also be a problem, in that suspended bubbles will not seperate as fast out of the coolant, compared to water/coolant mix or water alone. This may be what you\'re seeing - air that is constantly being recirculated since it is harder for it to seperate out in the pure coolant you\'re using?
Don\'t get me wrong, pure 100% coolant will still work, just not as well as the normal coolant/water mix. I was thinking along the same lines - more coolant, leads to more cooling effect. I thought, before I raise the coolant level, lets have a look on the web, and read quite a few articles and they all said the same thing - i.e. paraphrased above. There will no doubt be other opinions, please correct if anything is wrong ( :flamed )!
Quote from: Jono FD3I\'ve got a suspicious one for you: Milky goop in the oil filler neck ( symptoms of a head gasket failure on a piston engine) but yet no water is being used?
sounds a bit Kift, could it be down to the oil, as it started just after an oil chainge?!
Papping my pants about the reactions!!
Jono
If you are not losing any water it will be down to the damper nights and days. Its just a small build up. Doubt anything to worry about.
Quote from: D2BBAHi guv,
The car is running almost pure coolant. Its a funny off-red colour. Just changed her, so its as clean as you can get!!!!
Heard many people to say to run pure coolant, however I have topped up with water on occassion. Anyone else got any thoughts on this?
Got a GReddy water temp gauge, which I spend more time looking at than the road!, Hopefully this will give me an idea if temps are getting too high!
Cheers
Chris
On a road car you should not be running pure anti freeze, as Andrew says waste of money and will give you higher temps, but if you mean coolant not anti freeze then only race cars are doing this, not point in road cars. Royal Purple do Purple Ice, its a coolant not anti freeze. It is thinner than water and fills the rough casting in you water system so allows a better flow aiding cooling. Generally 1-2 bottles of Royal Purple is enough unless you are running high boost dragging or racing, then more might be wanted.
Corrosion inhibitor is good!
Quote from: andrewrx7Recently read about this - the best cooling is all water, but not really suitable for all year road use. Water is an amazing molecule, and has a very high capacity for heat. A mix of water and coolant is the best allrounder - it helps dissapate heat, while protecting against freezing, and will also contain corrosion inhibitors. Going pure coolant doesn\'t give you any further benefit - indeed it may have its downsides - a bigger hit in your wallet for no reason, but because the pure coolant is actually more viscous than water, you will probably get a poorer cooling effect, since it cannot flow as fast, nor contact surfaces as efficiently. Cavitation may also be a problem, in that suspended bubbles will not seperate as fast out of the coolant, compared to water/coolant mix or water alone. This may be what you\'re seeing - air that is constantly being recirculated since it is harder for it to seperate out in the pure coolant you\'re using?
Don\'t get me wrong, pure 100% coolant will still work, just not as well as the normal coolant/water mix. I was thinking along the same lines - more coolant, leads to more cooling effect. I thought, before I raise the coolant level, lets have a look on the web, and read quite a few articles and they all said the same thing - i.e. paraphrased above. There will no doubt be other opinions, please correct if anything is wrong ( :flamed )!
Some quick references:
1) Antifreeze Facts
*
Glycol is the main ingredient used in all forms of antifreeze. Modern engines use a mixture of glycol and water as a coolant.
*
Using antifreeze without mixing it with water can damage the engine by causing high operating temperatures. Additives in the antifreeze can also gum up cooling system passages and damage water pump seals. Glycol should make up between 40 and 60 percent of the mix for best results.
*
Using a proper ratio of antifreeze to water ensures acceptable freezing and boiling protection for your vehicle. Distilled water ensures long engine life. The use of a refractometer to measure the percent of antifreeze in the mixture is also recommended.
2) An old article about high concs of anti-freeze:
LINK (http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF6/680.html)
3) And another little bit:
QuoteOnly use the amount of antifreeze that your demographic region dictates. Basic chemistry tells us that pure water is the best coolant, period. The specific heat of water is 1.0. This is the common chemistry yardstick that says that it takes 1 BTU to raise 1 pound of water 1° F and is assigned the 1.0 specific heat number. A 50/50 mix of ethylene glycol (the green stuff) has a tested specific heat number of 0.5 and of propylene glycol of 0.3. What this means is that it take twice the amount, in the case of the green stuff (and over three times for the red stuff) of BTUs to raise the same amount of water 1 degree!! This means that pure water will remove double the amount of heat and carry that heat away from the source per unit volume. Now, do the arithmetic and you will find out that the more pure water...the more heat gets taken away! Do not confuse this with the boiling point of the coolant. Pure water will boil at a lower temperature than that of a mix of water and antifreeze, as well as freeze at a higher point. The application of pressure in the system by the system through the normal expansion of water and gas during heating, is the solution to keeping the water from boiling away. A 10 LB pressure on water raises is vapor point to 239° F. I recommend a 25% mix of the green/red stuff to water for boiling protection, lubricating and corrosion resistance. Use only what you need!
That is why my engine needed a rebuild! there is no way of knowing what Inhibitor has been, or not been used in our cars over the years, The engine still had a few thousand miles in it, it didn\'t fail mechanically,Time to think about getting ready for the winter, with good a mix of Antifreeze and with a good corrosion inhibitor in it,
Cheers Bob
Cheers for that guys, my butt cheeks are a bit more relaxed after hearing it\'s a common thing during the winter!!
But goin to chainge the oil aswell cos the stuff isn\'t up to mutch so going back to GTX
to be on the safe side!!
Jono
Jono its definitely nothing to worry about. I think we nearly all have this. Basically , moisture (from condensation) cant escape because the sump and the oil system dont really have a "breather", (to keep the greenies happy).
i remember reading on this forum that you should not use red antifreeze :xconfused
Quote from: RobbieRX-7i remember reading on this forum that you should not use red antifreeze :xconfused
Was just about to ask this as i have the green stuff put in by Pip
blue or green - engine clean
pink or red - engine dead
Quote from: froblue or green - engine clean
pink or red - engine dead
Why??
Is there any hard facts for backing up this kind of statement - or is it just chinese whispers that become legends and everyone then sticks by?? :confused:
Personally I went with Mobil Advanced, I think it was, a pink OAT ethylene glycol based coolant, that had an orangy tinge when diluted! If nothing else, it made the changing of the coolant more interesting! :D So by the little ditty above, I have a dead engine? I used this, \'cos I couldn\'t find
any evidence to say otherwise.
As far as I can tell, different manufacturers use different colourings anyway, so the colour of a coolant is no indication as to the chemical composition of it. Someone with any further info - please post! :D
I\'m using a red one that goes pink too, after taking my block apart which had run on a blue coolant (sorry I can\'t remember the brand) I was told that it may have not been kind to my block hence the swap to another coolant.
As Andrew says I believe it\'s only a colouring and not an indication of chemical content. As long as it\'s kind to ally blocks it should be fine.
I also try not to run too high a concentrate due to the cooling effitientcy as described above (as long as it doesn\'t freeze in winter)!
I\'ll have to find out what RE Amemiya / Feed / Panspeed recommend coolant-wise.
the colouring does give an indication of composition. The red/pink/orange colour indicates organic acids used in the \'advanced\' or \'long life\' coolants specced in VAG cars as standard. Blue and Green coolants do not contain these additives. At least not in this country.
My understanding is that Glycol coolants should be avoided as it does nasty things to the seals over time.
I know that WGT & Shy use a green coolant...
would\'ve thought Shy would find a Yellow one if they could though! ;)
I\'m running a day glow pink stuff which I borrowed from my local Audi dealership (Through a freind) think it was a 1.5L tub I put in her. water looks clear as if there is no anti freeze in it? Weird!!
Jono
Quote from: andrewrx7The specific heat of water is 1.0. This is the common chemistry yardstick that says that it takes 1 BTU to raise 1 pound of water 1° F and is assigned the 1.0 specific heat number. A 50/50 mix of ethylene glycol (the green stuff) has a tested specific heat number of 0.5 and of propylene glycol of 0.3. What this means is that it take twice the amount, in the case of the green stuff (and over three times for the red stuff) of BTUs to raise the same amount of water 1 degree!! This means that pure water will remove double the amount of heat and carry that heat away from the source per unit volume. Now, do the arithmetic and you will find out that the more pure water...the more heat gets taken away!
I think that\'s about right, but not the whole story. The pure water has the capacity to take away twice as much heat energy as the 50/50 mix for a given temperature rise, but the actual heat transfer is governed by different physical properties. The 50/50 mix reduced the surface tension of the coolant, which means that for a given metal / coolant temperature situation, it takes away
more heat from the engine than pure water. You then end up getting higher coolant temperatures with 50/50 for two reasons; higher heat transfer from the metalwork, and lower specific heat capacity. So, you get hotter coolant pre-radiator but a cooler engine. I\'m not sure how the corrosion resistance varies with concentration, but I would have thought that the bets place to be thermally is wherever you get teh best combination of heat transfer / boiling performance. :)
Quote from: MaveI think that\'s about right, but not the whole story. The pure water has the capacity to take away twice as much heat energy as the 50/50 mix for a given temperature rise, but the actual heat transfer is governed by different physical properties. The 50/50 mix reduced the surface tension of the coolant, which means that for a given metal / coolant temperature situation, it takes away more heat from the engine than pure water. You then end up getting higher coolant temperatures with 50/50 for two reasons; higher heat transfer from the metalwork, and lower specific heat capacity. So, you get hotter coolant pre-radiator but a cooler engine. I\'m not sure how the corrosion resistance varies with concentration, but I would have thought that the bets place to be thermally is wherever you get teh best combination of heat transfer / boiling performance. :)
Nicely explained. Quite agree, reducing the surface tension and ensuring a better and higher contact area between the water/coolant and the engine housings is how the coolant works. Wetting agents like Gary mentioned above, are meant to aid this to.
I didn\'t have much time to respond to this earlier (being at work) so here goes..
When I first changed my coolant, I asked on here or fduk (can\'t remember which) if a specific brand of coolant was ok to use in a rotary. I got no answer so asked Tim. Tim told me specifically to avoid any red/long life coolant and stick to normal ethylene glycol based blue/green coolant and provided anecdotal evidence of engines he\'s stripped down with different coolants.
After a lot of research on various overseas forums it appears that any extended life organic acid coolant is to be avoided in a rotary. These coolants are red/pink in colour when undiluted. The manufacturers *should* stick to the convention that blue/green coolants do NOT contain organic acid additives and are therefore ok for use in a rotary. If in doubt, check the label.
Got to agree that pure anti freeze will turn corrosive - in about 6 months and most articles that I have read recommend changing the coolant mix every 2 years anyway.
Keith
just to throw a spanner in the works, I have pink coolant in my car based on a this THREAD (http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17989&highlight=halfords) as recomended by Carl.
FD3UK, thats MY thread and thats exactly what I wanted to say! :-))
So now I am confused, Tim says the pink stuff is bad, and Carl says its good. I made about a 50/50 mix of the Halfords 5 year ( pink stuff) and de-ionised water.
now I\'m confused too. I\'m pretty sure carl wouldn\'t recommend it unless he was sure it\'s ok.. does the pink halfords stuff have organic acid rust inhibitors?
I guess this is one of those discussions that will never have a definitive answer. The only way it can be solved is to have multiple engines, same age, same condition, running the different coolants, under the same conditions etc etc etc......and look at the effects over several years. Its just not going to happen. I suppose if an engine goes, and when its stripped it is found to have an OAT containing coolant, then that could be one cause.....but then how many water seals go, in engines using the older non-OAT containing coolants?! Its like all these arguements - eg synthetic oil - some people swear by it, some stick with mineral \'cos of what Mazda said 20 years ago etc etc!! (I think I read recently, that Mazdas LeMans winner ran on sythetic?? Is this correct??)
I think for now the answer is that it probably takes some time for the coolant to become corrosive if it does, and if nobody is 100% sure which one is best, To change the coolant more often, perhaps twice a year with a good flush! but this is an interesting thread and is in all our interests to sort out the best coolant for the job, so keep talking guys,
Bob
Quote from: ro284I think for now the answer is that it probably takes some time for the coolant to become corrosive if it does, and if nobody is 100% sure which one is best, To change the coolant more often, perhaps twice a year with a good flush! but this is an interesting thread and is in all our interests to sort out the best coolant for the job, so keep talking guys,
Bob
Bingo - we have a winner!!!
Might be alright for your average boinger to have a coolant change every 1 million miles (or at the next ice-age, whichever comes first). But our cars weren\'t designed to be maintenance-free.
Depending on miles and driving type, one changes oil every 3k or less. This is lower than the manuf reccomendations I think but a safe point. Surely it\'s a good idea to change coolant at least anually? That way you can do a flush and inspect the outcome for signs of problems!
I do a complete coolant change with every yearly FULL service, which is due in January :spank