I bought some new check valves for the FD, thought an hour job wouldnt turn out to be 6 hours! Slowly start removing the pipes and crap the end snapped off the double throttle control valve (great) so knowing its a mare to get to i decided to remove all the UIM, alternator etc etc to get to the racks. So i finally got there replaced the vacume hoses, fixed the valve checked it all over. Put it back together and now it ticks over like a sack of poo, idles at 300-500rpm and hardly hits 0.5 bar of boost. Im well cheesed off, i followed all the diagrams and check the hoses went in the correct places and not im just lost what to do?! not sure if it will need new valves or what? Im thinking of just taking it to a rotary tuner and get them to look over it as its a pain taking it apart all the time :( Any local around berkhamsted (watford) area? or ideas what to do.
Cheers
Gav
i learnt a long time ago only work on a car if i have to..as i am jinxed no matter what i touch i f--k it up..brakes/water pumps/power steering racks u name it i cock it up...i know it can be satisfying to do it urself but i end up stressed and tired and frustrated...i know the theory but fail on the practise side..unless u enjoy doing it get the garage to do it
How did you repair the double throttle control valve?
Do you have an aftermarket Boost gauge that shows vacuum, too? This would tell us if there is a leak somewhere under idling?
There is a way of bypassing the double throttle control, I would start by doing that , (for diagnostic purposes, not as a permanent mod).
Well when it first snapped off, i super glued the nipple back on, while waiting for it to dry i changed the other vacume hoses. Went back to it, pushed the hose back on and the thing snapped again. So i took the valve out and noticed the glue had also blocked the hole, slowly drilled it out to clean the hole and then stuck it back on again with super glue this time check the hole was clear and it all went fine put it back on and well the rest is history so to speak. Would the double throttle valve cause rough idle and boost issues though?
Gav
Quote from: D3SWell when it first snapped off, i super glued the nipple back on, while waiting for it to dry i changed the other vacume hoses. Went back to it, pushed the hose back on and the thing snapped again. So i took the valve out and noticed the glue had also blocked the hole, slowly drilled it out to clean the hole and then stuck it back on again with super glue this time check the hole was clear and it all went fine put it back on and well the rest is history so to speak. Would the double throttle valve cause rough idle and boost issues though?
Gav
Ok, I think you need to replace that valve, just for peace of mind. Get one from Andrew at Jimmy\'s. I dont think it will cause rough idling, unless your repair is letting air into the manifold somehow. It could cause your lack of boost, though. the throttles might not be opening, or you could be allowing pressure or vacuum to escape from the control system.
If you have rough idling, I would definitely suspect a leak somewhere. You\'re sure that all your little pipes have gone back where they should be? Especially those ones under the intake manifold?
Cheers for the info matey, well i have replaced all the pipes back where they should be, refered to the vacume hose diagram and all seems ok, one pipe i noticed was the large one next to the nipple for a boost gauge, that was split but not all the way through pipe, looks like it goes into the power stearing pump. What would happen if the valves where the wrong way round? i mean i know they arent but info would help. i cant think where there are any leaks on the UIM as i replaced everything. So then would it be valves all i can think.
Gav
Forgot to say as well, when you dip the clutch it nearly stalls i.e when your slowing down. Im lost now :( lol, what do you think, take it to someone that knows their way around it?
Cheers
Gavin
I think the dipping clutch stalling is just a symptom of the poor idling. I dont think there is anything that goes form the manifold to the power steering. Do you mean the pipe that goes to the big black round thing? That is for braking assistance. Again, I would get a new pipe from Mazda , do you really want to have very little brakes on day as your coming up to a junction at 70 mph?
Is it the pipe shown below? Ask your Mazda parts man for F100 43 640A.
As you are only seeing .5bar and the idle is rough I\'d say your deffo looking at an air leak. What condition were the hoses in? Soft or getting hard? You may have a split hose now thats losing you your boost and letting the engine suck in unmetered air.
Eeek! I take back what I said about F100 43 640A, Mazda want £30 for it. Guys its the vacuum hose for the brake servo unit. Can I just use some fuel injection hose from Halfords, or is a pipe made for pressure not necessarily able to withstand vacuum, too?
no u must use the factory hose as there is a one way valve in there to stop the servo seeing positive pressure when on boost it shd only ever see vac-negative pressure
Ah, thanks.
Well, i replaced that servo hose for a test it didnt make any change, so im putting back the other hose after i noticed in had a one way vavle. Well maybe this would help the it, remove the double throttle totaly and have a single throttle? also replace all the solonoids and try to simplise the system? What do you think?
Gav
http://robrobinette.com/
This site has some procedures to follow to help diagnose Boost problems. I would start here.
Removing the double throttle can be done, but Mazda put it in there to prevent the engine being driven hard when its not fully warm yet.
I think the solenoids and valves are very expensive from Mazda. It would be cheaper to get an RX shop to look at it for you.
If you hunt around the web, there are a few solenoids and pipes that can be eliminated.
Think thats the way forward, Jimmys has some solonoids so i will order some new ones, im going to replace those and make it a tad more simple, so i need the double throttle solonoid if im going to ditch the system?
Cheers
Gav
What do you mean by "ditch the system"? Some people go for a single turbo, but thats a lot of money, you will need to replace the ECU ( Computer) and thats expensive.
One of the things you can do to simplify the "rats nest" of solenoids and tubes is to modify ( and disbale) the double throttle system. I was just pointing out that if you do that, then drive the car very carefully until its fully warmed up. I suppose driving it hard without the engine warm wouldnt really break anything, but it would certainly shorten the life of the engine, ( in my humble opinion).
Sorry mate, what i meant was just ditch the double throttle control, i can then remove and free up some of the nest. Also by doing that and me starting again with the nest a replumbing i can check over what i have done and cross fingers should run again properly.
Dont worry about it giving it some, i am so predantic about it, leave it warm up for awhile and never push for a good 15 mins.
So do you think that would be a worthwhile thing to do? as i will be look for alot more power eventually.
Cheers
Gav
A Useful diagram for fully simplified sequentials. This is what I did to mine and it makes things much easier. I don\'t care much for emissions!
My rat\'s nest http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17288
Oh mate that is well handy, that is just what i am looking for, so if i follow this i should be back on track, any more advantages to it? beside it being more simple?
Did you change any valves? also what did you do with the spare plugs just leave them loose?
And i notice that on the UIM you have only twp pipes going in, all others are blocked off i take it?
Also on the original diagram, you look at the yellow on top of the Y pipe on the turbos, it used to go back into the pressure chamber, is it just blanked now?
One last thing to ask, all the other crap in there is just for emission control?
Cheers
Gav
No probs mate, I have just been through what you are doing and hope it helps!
My check valves were knackered, one was blocked and the othere were slow to react.
If you have a stock ECU you will have to use resistors to replace the solenoids, if you have an Apexi you can leave them unplugged.
Yes the line you mention can be capped off.
Al the unused nipples can be capped off. I had a lot of trouble finding things to cap these off.
The other crap is for emissions, except for the FPR solenoid. I changed my secondary fuel rail, and therefore used an aftermarket FPR. That allowed me to dump the solenoid \'cos i just used a straight line off the manifold.
A few pointers:
Buy, borrow or steal a Mityvac. It\'s very very useful for troubleshooting and checking check valves, solenoids and different parts of the system.
Use this procedure to check solenoids.
http://www.rx7.voodoobox.net/ --> How To --> Solenoid check
The \'listen for click\' or \'blow through\' check is not reliable. All mine passed the simple checks, but the solenoids get \'sluggish\' at higher boost levels. ie It might be fine at 9psi, and no good at 10, or fine at 10psi but no good at 15psi (Which is what I want :D )
I bought my check valves from Dale Clark http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=391766&highlight=viton+check
they were dirt cheap and hopefully will hold up better than the stock ones as they are made of Viton. £15 for a second hand stocker is not worth it in my opinion.
If you live near to me you can borrow my Mityvac, I live in Romford.
Hi mate,
Well its the way forward i think, there is less chance of the system screwing again if i do this.
I bought my valves from the same Chap, they seem alot better than stockers. I checked one of my oe valves and it hardly moved and another kept sticking.
I will be running a stock ecu for a few months, so i will have to get some resistors, somewhere like maplin should sell those?
Thing i am worried about is the FPR as i am still retaining that for now, so how do i go about doing that and all the pipe work?
Well if its chelmsford essex was then im not that far, i live about 15 mins outside watford and work in london, if your want you can help me lol (joke)
I will probably be asking a few questions to be honest i hope you dont mind?, i mean its fairly straight forward to do, following the diagram and pointers.
Oh one last thing where did you get the 5 way nylon pipe connetors and T connectors?
Cheers
Gav
Hey FD3, thanks for that link about the valves.
I am not sure about mine, so I have ordered a set and will replace mine. I have a different problem, I get only 7 psi on secondary.
D3S, I got my Ts from Burton Power on the A12, but they are available in most performance shops. If you got questions ask away! It is good to have this kind of info on the forum.
Martiny, not sure about the 7psi. Perhaps a pill is missing, as that is the pressure of the wastegate spring.
Cool man, well what i have done for now is remove the double throttle and replace all the vacume hoses hoping that will sort it. then when i start uprating things i will simplyfy it. i mean i am not changing anything from before so the car should work like it did i hope lol
Gav
Right now i am lost, i removed the double throttle, plugged the holes etc etc, replaced all the vacume hoses and still i am only getting 0.5 bar boost?! :( i am really confused i have even replaced the solonoids for the turbo control and still it does this...good thing is it idles ok now, so suggests there isnt any major boost leaks.
Gav
When you say \'Ditch the double throttle\' what exactly have you removed?
Just the solenoid, or the butterflies too.
To disable the DT you could cap the vac line into the DT actuator on the UIM, remove the solenoid and cap the lines or take out all the butterflies. Either way, if your car idles and boosts, maybe it\'s a fault somewhere else in the system. 0.5 bar is about 7psi, which is also the weight of the wastegate spring. Perhaps you left out a pill?
Don\'t worry, it can\'t be anything you a bit of troubleshooting won\'t fix.
Hi,
Well i removed the butterflys, no point having those if your removing the double throttle lol. Anyway the butterflys went, vac hoses and solonoid, i used a resistor on the solonoid plug so it wouldnt flash up an error code. I pluged up all the spare holes left open.
I checked all the diagrams time and timea gain and the hoses are all in the right place, all pills are in the right area and nothing has been left out. its really odd. Maybe somewhere else? clogged cat?
Did you find when you removed your double throttle that the car wasnt as aggresive on boost, more linear? as when i 1st took it out, it ran pretty well hitting .07 bar then up to 0.9 bar and back to 8 on the 2nd turbo. I wonder if its anything to do with the TPS if its been knocked?
Damn thing is bugging me now lol
Gav
I think the DT removal has little or no effect on performance. As for the TPS, your idle would probably be off/high.
What\'s your boost pattern? 0.5-0.45-0.5 ?
You mention that it was running 0.7-0.9-0.8 when you first had it running, is that correct? That boost pattern looks abnormal, and also points to a pre-spool area problem.
Perhaps it\'s not the solenoids or hoses but the arm adjustment on one of the actuators. The Dave Vanditmars writeup helps a lot for checking this out.
Clear up the questions above and also give us an idea of what you did to check the bits and pieces you have touched. (Solenoids, check valves etc)
Well the boost patern now is 0.5-0.45-0.5bar but when i first took it out it was hitting 0.7-0.9-0.8 not normal but better than 0.5 but what was wierd was you couldnt really feel the change over on the 2nd turbo but was getting a decent amount of boost.
Anyway i went over time and time again checking i had everything in the right place, i replaced the turbo pre control and wastegate control and charge control solonoid along with the vac hoses and all new check valves no hoses were trapped so basically it is back to how it was. I did an ecu reset but that didnt make any difference.
have you got a link to The Dave Vanditmars write ups? maybe it is an actuator, worth looking.
Cheers
Gavin
Here is the link: http://www.autosportracetech.com/RX-7/rx7stuff.htm
Nice one cheers mate, i will have a read.
Gav
similar problem after snapping the hose that goes down the the double throttle solonoid?? i have capped off the tube that goes to it normally but not done anything else with the dual throttle - only getting 0.5 - could this be it!
your thoughts would be of so much help!
cheers
did you manage to resolve yours?