(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a285/nasbucket/20-08-05_1453.jpg)
looks like it might be, think its in the same place as mine
looks like it might be, think its in the same place as mine
Yup I\'d say its an FCD. Unplug it and take it off, there may be some identifying marks on it :)
hey isnt it cool when you find goodies on your car you didnt even know you had! yep i suspected it was an FCD , (cant believe i didnt notice it earlier).
often wondered about these things - do they provide a benefit for stock cars or only if you have modifictions which give higher boost levels?
If you have a wastegate problem on a stock car they are usefull, and they are essential if you are upping the boost without fitting a new ecu. (Stock ecu will cut fuel to rear rotor when it detects over boosting.
I personaly think unless you fit a bigger fuel system uping the boost is dangrous!
Yes the Fuel Cut kills the rear rotor which does it no good at all and can often cause a faliure just becouse it cuts fuel to one rotor and keep the other one live.
I just don\'t get the point of the Fuel Cut, To run more boost you need bigger pump and injectors, to run these you need a EMS.
I had a FCD on one of my early sevens that looked the same as that, i think it came from Pip? there was a recipt and one of his cards in the glove box when i got the car.
Chris I dissagree.
You can run more boost on any car from stock/standard without changing fuel pump, injectors, Ems, exhaust and all the kak that people keeps floating around here.
All cars rolling off the production line are set up very conservertive, they all have a very large error margin, meaning that the fuel system install(factory) or any other system is highly under worked.
This is so for many obvious reasons, one being so the parts/system will last a very long time!
95% of all EMS/ecu\'s that are made for standard factory vehicles have the ability to compensate, adjust, re-learn to any new parameters it senses.
And they can do this easily because they have that room and margin for quite a large error or should I say different setting.
I am in no way saying that your Mondeo turbo with 5psi of standard boost pressure can be wacked up to 10 psi without harm, naturally common sense should prevail.
Quote from: TRexChris I dissagree.
You can run more boost on any car from stock/standard without changing fuel pump, injectors, Ems, exhaust and all the kak that people keeps floating around here.QuoteOk, I have run 10psi on a stock T2 with a wide band fitted, I have seen the fluctuations the S**t Ic has caused. Trust me from first hand experiance of blowing one of these things up its not about IF it will run more boost! its all about has the Fueling got enough Duty left do deal with the Changes in temp.
The main thing is people will up the boost and then a month later when they have got used to it think i\'ll up it a bit more people on the net say its ok?
I relise alot of people buy T2\'s becouse they are cheap and you get a fast car for your money. But without checking stuff like is the pump seeing the 12v it should!, Has the Injectors been serviced recently? When was the last time the Fuel filter has been changed?. Its a car thats getting on a bit now and without doing the proper Mods i would not play with the Boost and with out doubt not tell somone its Ok without seeing the car first?
Don\'t forget Mazda put the Fuel cut there for a reason! do you have any idea what your Injector Duty is? NO becouse the stock EMS is not remapable.
Quote from: TRex95% of all EMS/ecu\'s that are made for standard factory vehicles have the ability to compensate, adjust, re-learn to any new parameters it senses.
And they can do this easily because they have that room and margin for quite a large error or should I say different setting.
Do you know why? Altitude,Temp Octaine these all have alot to do with how your car behaves
For example why do you think you feel like your car has more power when its Foggy or less power when its the Hotest day of the year? A ems has tolarances in Air temp and Quantity entering the engine. Now what would happen if you uped your boost too much and reduce the extra fuel the EMS needs to cope with Weather changes etc?
I am not daft i\'ve had a Wide band for some time messing about with mods etc and the one thing i\'ve learnt is no too cars behave exactly the same way.
What you have said there basically agrees with what I have saying..
YOU can up the performance, forget that, we will only talk about boost as thats what is about here.
You can up the boost on ANY standard car \'within reason\' without losing sleep because you haven\'t put bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, better Ems etc etc. because the standard set up can take it!
Or how about this for a reason not to fit a FCD.
What would happen if you get a 15-16 year old Turbo car that the vac pipes have hardened with age and heat. Then you take off the safty (Fuel cut) What happens if for example a Actuator hose starts leaking?
Also i found for some reason when you up the boost you\'ll find Cracks starting to apear round the Waste gate its self due to the amount of heat that is caused when the car starts to lean off. This will mess up your Throttle responce and will make your boost fall again.
I have seen all this first hand as i have run a T2 at 10psi for a few years.
Just to confirm, I could of typed everything you said there as I understand how it works(more than I may type here) but just making it basic as people here are always mislead.
Not to get side tracked.. but
The main point being..
You can up the standard boost on any application within reason without upgrading other stuff.. :yes
In an old used car with mileage and age parameters will of course change but the ems function would not really change/deteriote.
So where do you stand? would you still say to somone they will be Ok to fit a FCD and up the boost not knowing if the car is past its sell by date?
Sorry Chris, I just edited my post above.
At the end of the day i just don\'t like FCD\'s i have lost an engine through the temptation it caused combined with a Boost Controler.
So when it all comes down to it i will always recomend the proper way, Pump,Injectors and EMS. Becouse its safe you still have a Fuel cut which you can set and you can see what everything is doing.
But as you say it can be done but like anything its a risk?
Quote from: GrizzlySo where do you stand? would you still say to somone they will be Ok to fit a FCD and up the boost not knowing if the car is past its sell by date?
Thats tricky, because as stated just now, increasing the performance out of anything that has been around the block abit and has seen some action will be a risk taking venture as you have pointed out, many things may be worn and close to fracture and the little bit extra pressure/performance can just push it to it\'s now fragile limit.
So in a situation like this I may advise against it...
But saying this, I personally think going into \'boost cut mode\' is not healthy.
One of my Impreza\'s used to hit the Boost cat so hard you would pratically almost hit the windsheild, it was sooo violent.... And this was the outside feeling it, far less for the actuall motor internals... :(
How funys that, when ever i have a Debate on a forum i go away and check my e-Mail and theres hole row of "whats this - FCD??" mails. LOL
What can I say, you\'re popular...... :rollin
Interesting reading guys :)
My FCD is fitted primarily as a safety device due to not knowing whether the wastegate was playing my tune or not. With all the cars I\'ve modded, I\'ve rebuilt them first and replaced any parts that are going to be a weak link. Modding a car without checking it is suicide in terms of the engines life.
I agree that if you are planning on running above stock boost as a matter of course you should install a proper \'safety net\', I\'m fitting WI and a spray for the IC, if this is not a safe way to run 10psi for the occasional blast then I\'m sure I\'ll pay the price and do a nice big write on it :D
If you want my Advice buy a wide band. I have a Innovative, i got it a few years ago and has saved me on more than one occasion.
If you do get one, go for one that has RPM and data logging on it. the only problem with mine is its a bit Bulky and the display is a little small but it does the job.
Quote from: BrettInteresting reading guys :)
My FCD is fitted primarily as a safety device due to not knowing whether the wastegate was playing my tune or not.
Sorry i don\'t undertand? the Fuel cut is the Saftey device and the FCD removes it so you can rase the boost past the factory preset.
Yes, but when your factory preset has decided to shaft itself due to a dmaged loom, I put the FCD on to act as a signal modulator fromt the PS to the ECU. Now I\'ve gotten the loom repaired and tracked down all the air leaks its pretty much redundant.
When I get the car prepped I will see about a wide band. What make do you use?
Innovative.
Cheers, I\'ll look \'em up :D
I have had several TII\'s now. My first was about 9 years ago. It had a FCD on it an a controller, i sourced the car through Pip who recommended it and put the new engine in it. Pip told me i could run 1 bar all day long which of course with a controller i did. The engine didnt last very long..... obviosly so pip rebuilt it and still told me i could run 1 bar all day long which i did. The engine didnt last very long........... obviously. I took it back under warranty and Pip rebuilt it again charging me another shed load of money. I then spoke to a few poeple in the know who all said that you could upto 10 or 11 psi on a TII with out any further mods. So since then i havent been back to Pip\'s....... obviously. :rolleyes:
I got another TII cab, about 4 years ago, fitted a different turbo, FMIC and wanted to run more boost. I fitted an FD fuel pump and made an attachment for two fuel injectors on the throttle body that ran off a pressure switch. Crude i know but it did the job. With a poor stock clutch slipping like mad i ran 14.3 on a concrete 1/4 mile, 3 years ago. and the converts are heavier.
I\'ll get to the point now..... :cool
The main problem with TII\'s is that even now, there is not a lot available in the way of affordable engine/fuel management that is simple to fit unlike the FD or other jap cars. The microtec has only really been available with the proper support and tuning for the last year or two. But i can see both your sides......... now wheres ther fence and i\'ll go and sit on it :rollin
haha, all that from wanting to know if an FCD has been installed!
as it happens i am planning on rewireing the fuel pump and changing all the hoses and making sure its sweet, so i can at least count on the engine not expiring because of a split hose.
yes yes there are many other things that will die on an old car, but i think mines not too bad, its only done 77K.
Great discussion ont the FCD, I have read what you lot are saying and learnt something new today.
i cant afford the total EMS swap, thats a grand easy, which is a LOT more than i paid for the car, maybe at a later stage i will if i go downt he road of bigegr turbos, but i will want an FD by then!
so in the mean time how about one of those nifty fuel computers, apexi do one of those its called the SAFC II
LINK IS HERE (http://www.hyeline.com/apexi_electronics.htm)
at 300 quid it looks reasonable even when new and second hand ones can be had for much cheaper. So wont this do the job? why do i need to bother with the power fc and the microtech, when all i need is a boost contoller and one of those babys?
thats the same FCD as mine
still not 100% sure that it does - all the above got a bit technical for me
but at the end of the day im not looking for huge boost figures :)
Just got to stick the FD fuel pump in mine ( just cause i have it and its another precation )
take care
stu
Stu, this may help...
Fuel Cut Defencer is any device that prevents the stock ECU from cutting fuel(in Rotary engine) to the rear rotor when the boost exceeds a preset boost level. This maximum safe boost level and behavior is written into the engine management unit (map) and can not be changed without reprogramming the ECU.
The maximum allowed boost pressure is about 8.6 psi. The way an FCD defeats the fuel cut is by \'lying\' to the ECU about what the boost pressure is. The FCD is placed between the boost sensor and the ECU where it modifies the boost pressure signal by some amount so that as the boost pressure rises above the preset "safe limit", the ECU continues to see a signal that is below the limit.
Well put !!
So we have decided with the correct checks first 10psi is within the bounds of a stock T2.
Now just to throw a spanner in the works how much would an exhaust or a set of Decat pipes change the fueling?
What i\'m saying can you still run 10psi with an Exhaust and Air filter (bolt ons) fitted?
well then dont you need the fcd as it wont cut fuelling as you get the spkies when you upgrade the exhaust thus preventing it from leaning out
So you can\'t up the boost then?
I will tell you know that i had a stock t2 running 10psi of boost and it didn\'t lean of as much as my stock vert when i put the 3" exhaust on it (without including spiking).
Quote from: TURBOIINUTTAHwell then dont you need the fcd as it wont cut fuelling as you get the spkies when you upgrade the exhaust thus preventing it from leaning out
The idea is not to exceed 10psi. i have seen exhausts spike 2psi and creep more in some cases so what i\'m trying to say is its one or the other. You can\'t raise the boost and fit and Exhaust and expect not to have problems.
Quote from: GrizzlySo we have decided with the correct checks first 10psi is within the bounds of a stock T2.
Now just to throw a spanner in the works how much would an exhaust or a set of Decat pipes change the fueling?
What i\'m saying can you still run 10psi with an Exhaust and Air filter (bolt ons) fitted?
Chris do you not sleep m8.... :spank
You have thrown a spanner there actually, because \'Yes\' once you open up engine breathing (unrestrictive intake and exhaust) then the engine will naturally flow more Air, as there is no suffocation at the Intake and no backpressure coming out.
So the Turbo will boost a lot easier, hence why \'boost spikes\' occur!
If I were these chaps doing light mods(basically cheap mods) just trying to get a wee bit more from the standard motor without spending(as this seems to be the factor), I would go this route first!
1. Proper Boost gauge -- you need to see whats happening, especially as this is your main point of pushing power. Never guess or work blind.
2. Form of proper Boost control - not really to push the boost up yet, but to aid in controlling Boost for the next mod stages.
3. De-catt -- no point trying to get more power with a big sponge stuck up your zorst
4. Improve Intake flow -- done after zorst as it\'s no point pushing more air if it\'s not allowed to exit as quick as it comes in.
5. Cooling the charge air --- but now we are going into alot bigger cost from here.
The list goes on, but so does your costs...
Somewhere along in there I would probably throw in a FCD, mainly because the T2\'s do go into \'Fuel Cut\' easily and will deffo need one....
Point to note, this above is all well and good providing all the basics checks are done ensuring the car is properly tuned and serviced first. Also making sure all connections are secure and hoses - from water to vac lines are decent and in check. Basically the car is not a sh!tter to start with.....
disclaimer, these are my thoughts at almost 2am when I should be asleep!
He he... ;)
Ok then, so do we know what the FCD is tricking the ECU into reading? Is it a directly proportional reading, or does it simply cap the output signal from the Pressure sensor at (for example) 8psi?
how would the ECU know what pressure the turbo is running at? it could boost all the way to 15psi! the ecu would still be thinking its running at only 8psi!? that sounds dangerous! does the ecu still run the actuator when it hits the highest stock level of pressure?
As far as I\'m aware (going on the red book) even with the loop pressure being bled out the Wastegate should be starting to open around the 10psi mark.
If the ECU is programmed to give maximum fuel at xxPsi then I\'d imagine thats where the FCD will \'cap\' the boost reading to the ECU?
thats alright then. 10psi is plenty, but are we runnig lean? anyone had a go on the rolling road with the exhaust/filter/decat/fcd? did it run very lean when spiking? i suppose it shouldnt run dangerously lean as the rotor runs pretty rich anyway?
I have had it hooked up to a wideband. Yes it does start to lean on a stocker at 10psi on a coldish day.
But this is without a De-cat or Exhaust fitted that alone makes it a diffrent ball game. I know what the Exhaust on its own will do at stock Target boost, it acts like you\'ve wound the boost up basicly spiking to 10psi then droping back if you keep it WOT.
As for Filter and other bolt ons etc i never ran it as i fitted a EMS,Injectors Pump etc at the same time so it would not be a fair test.
BTW this is all for S5 T2\'s if you have a S4 with the single waste gate then you will find Spike/Creep alot more of a problem.
So do we think its a yes to the FCD modifying the output signal to read a max of 10psi or something? I\'ve no put a meter on there yet, but I\'m presuming its just a voltage scale thats used as the output?
On a stock car!!!
If you fit a Big Exhaust you may have to have a FCD becouse of the Spike but i would not run any more boost.
Its one or the other, Boost or Exhaust. Simple as that. On a good stock car.
right then
i have a decatted exhaust , induction kit and a stock A/F gauge
when i floor it - it runs straight into the rich section
now then - can i trust this ??
if thats what the ECU is thinking then surely the A/F gauge is correct ??
and it seems to be doing a stupid amount of MPG ( LOW figures )
is there something i should worry about ??
the only thing different on the car is the lamba sensor thingy - thats only done about 60K
and im getting about .7bar on the boost gauge
Whats a stock A/F Gauge? I presume you mean an Air fuel gauge? To be quite honist i\'ve never used one so i couldn\'t tell you what its suposed to read.
How is your A/F gauge plumed in? is it like a Wideband that takes its reading of a sencer in the Zorst?
next thing is where have you got your boost gauge plumed into? is it before or after the IC? and does it go upto .7 then drop back to .6-.6 1/2? (this is why i have a Gauge in psi its smaller jumps).
hiya chris
its not a wide band no
its wired into the back of the ECU - and reads from lean to rich in about 20 segments - and works out the voltage to tell you rich to lean
and the boost gauge - thats T\'d off the pressure sensor
and yes - thats about right but probably goes to .75 then drops to .7
its running very well - but now i think the clutch is playing up ( we have discussed this on another thread !! )
OK - you have confused me !! (easliy done eh !! )
the pump ... you mean fuel pump ??
and what do you reckon about the A/F reading
at 75mph with cruise on - the gauge bouces between rich and lean - i think thats OPEN LOOP ?? .. when you floor it - it goes into the rich area - which i think its supposed to - that proves its not running lean i suppose !!
not sure what to do with the car at the mo ..
on one hand - i need to fit the pump
on the other - i have to sort the clutch
no idea which way to turn and rapidly loosing faith in the FC..every time i fix something , something else just raises it ugly head :(
Quote from: grinderand the boost gauge - thats T\'d off the pressure sensor
Sounds about right, I use the cap\'d off extra take of on the back of the Inlet manifold.
yep i got it and replyed?
Trust me the diffrence in load on the engine between a clutch that is slipping and one that isn\'t is quite a bit.
Does it not tell you somthing about when its making most power? when it slips or not?
Fitting a Clutch is easy if you have Time on your side (O and some Radox :)) when you thinking of doing it?
Jumping back into the fun... :D
Chris... good advise on here m8...
Firstly I agree with the boost readings, I won\'t use a gauge in \'bar\' as the increments are not as good as Psi..
Air Fuel Gauges....
A \'narrow band\' Air Fuel Gauge, what everyone buys and use as a \'god/safety gauge\', it\'s as good as it is.. useless really when you think about it..
It\'s a decent indication of whats happening with regard to fuel burn.. But not or never for tuning or even for judging a cars performance!
They run off the cars standard Lambda/Oxy sensor in the exhaust.(single wire system)
Oxygen(lambda) sensors are used to monitor the level of unburned oxygen in the exhaust. The amount of oxygen that\'s left in the exhaust following combustion is a good indication of the relative richness or leanness of the fuel mixture.
When air and fuel are mixed together and ignited, the chemical reaction requires a certain amount of air to completely burn all of the fuel. The exact amount is 14.7 lbs of air for every pound of fuel. (stoichiometric) air/fuel ratio or Lambda.
Using a Lambda sensor to monitor the level of unburned oxygen in the exhaust, the sensor tell the ECU when the fuel mixture is lean (too much oxygen) or rich (too much fuel). To compensate, the ECU adjusts the fuel mixture by adding more fuel when the mixture is lean, or using less fuel when it is rich. That\'s the basic feedback fuel control loop. \'simple\'
Right, normal \'Narrow band\' oxygen sensors give on a rich-lean indication. They can\'t tell the Ecu the exact air/fuel ratio. When the air/fuel ratio is perfectly balanced, a standard (N/Band) O2 sensor produces a signal of sayyy \'X\'(volts) . when the signal goes \'Rich\', even just a nats c*ck the signal(voltage) goes to it\'s max reading, and when it senses \'Lean\', it goes right down to it\'s min reading.
No in between..........
A \'Wideband\' on the other hand, in a nutshell, gives you pratically all the bits in the middle... and quite accurate and safe.
And closing... as I always say... good things no cheap and cheap things no good!
Hence why you could buy a \'Single wire Narrow band A/F gauge\' for £15. and the cheapest \'Five wire Wideband set up is £300 +
That alone tells the story!
Discuss.... :guinness
Well put..
Let me put it this way, if you want to buy somthing that will acuratly tell you what your Motor is doing buy a Wide band. It would be the best £300 you will spend.(Mine Came with a Great Manual for hours of Bed time reading Fun).
I found it is important you get one with RPM and Data Logging as a function.
This may be a good toy for somone to set up a group buy or somthing to get the Cost down?
Sales Pitch over!!! OK, I realy hate it when i can\'t sleep :o
Hey TREX i belive you have cracked the 11\'s
Well done Mate.
Yeah G, thanks... :)
Word gets around then, only a matter of time really as there were many witnesess... ;)
Right, thread tidied up :)
I\'m going to let Trex start a thread now, if he doesnt...................:rollin
ok - who made him a mod ^ ???????????
i know what you mean about the A/F gauge - its a good enough indication for me .. if at full boost it drops to lean - back off quicky
and for price .. ah well chaps you know me ... cost £0.00
so it was worth fitting !!
and the clutch ... errrr yeah it slips when its at high revs ( power ) .. and as far as doing it - when ever really - im just scared
and to keep this on track ... FCD.. yeah yours is the same as mine :)
Quote from: grinderi know what you mean about the A/F gauge - its a good enough indication for me .. if at full boost it drops to lean - back off quicky
Urm, The measurement is taken from the Exhaust so if it goes into the lean its already happened.
If i was you the first thing would be to fit the fuel pump you have already! it may just give you the extra fueling to help the situation.