Mazda Rotary Club

General => General Technical => Anything Engine/Performance/Tuning related => Topic started by: fro on August 20, 2005, 01:50:29 PM

Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: fro on August 20, 2005, 01:50:29 PM
This is my second attempt at plumbing my charge cooler in. I\'ll be interested to hear any input from any of the usual suspects ;)
I originally fitted the filler cap inline on the inlet of the cooler (directly after the pump) but that didn\'t work especially well. It was very difficult that way to get rid of the air. The filler is now tee\'d off and raised above the rest of the system giving me a mini expansion tank effect (you can see the water level in the clear hose to the filler).
All seems well so far, will know 100% for sure when the car\'s mapped after the bank holiday. Intake temps are low and the cooler\'s always cold to the touch regardless of heat in the engine bay

Now I\'ve got the rest of the weekend to relax and :guinness

Rob
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: fro on August 20, 2005, 01:53:25 PM
oh, I forgot to mention - the main radiator (also a pwr item) has been raised by a couple of inches from the stock position by flipping the top mounts.. this leaves a nice gap on the right hand side for an air duct (the large orange pipe).
The water cooler rad is front mounted directly under the aircon condensor
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: asp on August 20, 2005, 02:25:46 PM
looks really good,
1 little thing thou,id get rid of the garden hose lookin stuff,
i dont think u need to see the level up the pipe cos its not really goin to move,
i like it,proper job :)
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: fro on August 20, 2005, 05:23:11 PM
I know it looks a bit strange but the clear hose to the filler has proved very useful. The level goes up and down a lot as the air is forced from the system into the filler neck. Ideally, a small expansion tank would be better but I can\'t find one that\'s the right shape.. the smaller bore clear pvc hose goes to the oil catch tank btw
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: Warthog on August 20, 2005, 06:03:49 PM
Nice one mate. What pump are you using? :wave
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: Fish on August 20, 2005, 06:08:05 PM
Very tidy setup mate.

Fish
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: fro on August 20, 2005, 06:09:31 PM
Quote from: WarthogNice one mate. What pump are you using? :wave

I\'m using the bosch one that came with the kit. Do I remember rightly you had some problems with this one?
The only thing I\'ve noticed with this pump so far is that it generates quite a bit of heat.. I might need a water cooler for the water cooler pump ;)
seems to push a fair amount of wet stuff though :D
Cheers

Rob
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: John Yorke on August 20, 2005, 06:44:43 PM
Nice tidy install mate ;) can see the advantage of the clear hose not a bad idea. What is the rest of the spec?
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: fro on August 20, 2005, 08:35:56 PM
Cheers :)
Not sure I\'d call it tidy.. I think it looks like I\'ve taken a random selection of hoses and thrown them in from a distance ;)
rest of spec (engine wise) is
stock engine, stock ports (rebuilt last year by Chris Philip)
stock twins
1300cc secondaries, powerFC
Home made induction kit (to create a bit of space)
Feed silenced midpipe, feed sonic rear section
ngk 10/11 plugs
greddy pulleys
supra fuel pump
pwr \'small\' radiator
Coolingmist single stage water injection

It was dynoed at reworx before the water injection and running a SMIC and made 312 bhp at the wheels on about 12.5psi. Hopefully when it goes for another dyno session after the bank holiday it\'ll make a little more :)
Cheers

Rob
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: Warthog on August 20, 2005, 09:18:00 PM
Fro-- The problem with the stock kit pump is that it does not pump the water around when it is up to pressure. I am having Geff fit me the same large electric pump that he uses for replacing the engine water pump, he is also doing the engine one for me as well. So both will be electric and i can therefore leave them on, on the turbo timer. It will help cool the engine down after a run.
I don\'t know if it is down to the bhp I\'m pushing through or not but I will let you know what difference it makes to temps, after the 27th. Thats when they are both being fitted and on the r/r to tune her. :wave
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: fro on August 24, 2005, 10:26:36 AM
That\'s interesting... and a bit confusing :)
Surely the system should never be under much pressure since the water doesn\'t really get very hot? If it was under a bit of pressure wouldn\'t the pressure be the same before and after the pump (so it shouldn\'t make any difference?)
I\'ve actually had to slow the stock pump down as it seemed to be pushing the water through too fast :o
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: Pointman on August 25, 2005, 03:35:42 PM
If you don`t mind me asking, how much are these Charge Coolers, and where might I get one ?  Thanks.
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: Sy. on August 25, 2005, 03:36:47 PM
same question :D

Pm sent to Fro
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: fro on August 25, 2005, 03:50:17 PM
I got this one from re:worx (see the supporting vendor list for contact details), they\'re not cheap when you add everything up (budget at least £1k for the kit, pipes etc) but worth it in the end.
You will also need to fabricate brackets to hold the cooler, pump and cooler radiator since these are not included with the kit - the kit is a universal one.
The advantages are massive flow potential and you are left with a very short inlet tract. I\'ve really noticed a lack of lag compared to a FMIC (and even the standard SMIC).
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: ash on August 25, 2005, 03:51:30 PM
This may be a stupid question, but how does a charge cooler work? Does it cool the intake air temp by using the water from the engine which is cooled in the normal way by the rad. If so how does it differ from an intercooler?

Thanks
Ash
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: Pointman on August 25, 2005, 04:02:56 PM
Cheers for the info Fro, I think I will have to wait until after my house is sold before I buy one  :(

(Spent too much already on nice things for the car)
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: fro on August 25, 2005, 04:03:30 PM
you have a seperate radiator for the charge cooler (it\'s a lot smaller than the main rad). On mine, this is mounted in front of the main radiator.
The water is pulled from this radiator, into the charge cooler by a seperate pump. The air from the turbos runs through the charge cooler in pipes which are cooled by the water.
It\'s just like a normal intercooler in a big water tank :)
Cheers
Rob

Quote from: ashThis may be a stupid question, but how does a charge cooler work? Does it cool the intake air temp by using the water from the engine which is cooled in the normal way by the rad. If so how does it differ from an intercooler?

Thanks
Ash
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: chrisBoid on August 25, 2005, 04:05:26 PM
It has it\'s own water system, cooled by a small water to air radiator and pumped around it\'s system with an additional electric pump.
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: Sy. on September 06, 2005, 02:32:41 PM
what temps do you get at the inlet air ?
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: John Yorke on September 06, 2005, 04:25:56 PM
Take normal motorway crusing in the summer expect 35ish or + 10c above ambient, on sustained full boost 45ish [dependant on what boost you are running, the numbers quoted are for twins running 1bar] These are only a rough guide and there are loads of factors to be taken into consideration.

The biggest plus is the rad stays in stock position and therefore gets optimum cooling, you reduce the inlet tract and it gives you the chance to sort out a propper cold intake system :guinness.

To sort it completely look at WI [cheapest you can find] for those hi- booooost moments and watch your inlets temps drop to 19\'s :D  :D
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: fro on September 06, 2005, 06:48:41 PM
yup that sounds like the sort of temps I\'m seeing.. main water temps are solid as a rock compared with my fmic install :)
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: fro on September 06, 2005, 06:58:01 PM
this pic shows the re-routed water inlet. The original inlet pipe was very prone to air locks!
The clear pipe\'s been replaced now all the air locks have been diagnosed. At one point, most of it was plumbed with clear hose which was very useful :)
There\'s now an air bleed point on the cooler itself though this will be replaced by a small outlet to be connected to the filler point (so the system self-bleeds)
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: Warthog on September 06, 2005, 07:03:48 PM
What you may well not know though folks is the temp drop before and after the Charge Cooler is 80+ deg\'s and with an intercooler you will loose 0.3-0.5 bar boost, whereas with a Charge Cooler you will only loose a maximum of 0.1 bar. Now when you put that together with 1. it\'s low cost 2. freeing up space 3. very much lower engine water temps 4. Intake Temps and 5. Low power loss. You have a good system. The only reason that the F1 Teams stopped using it was the weight issue of the water. But I for one feel that in our case that little bit of weight gain is nothing to the bonus points. Anyway HTH. :3gears-lh  :yes
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: davegttph1 on September 06, 2005, 07:39:21 PM
This Charge cooler looks home made.... Is there a ready made kit for it? what sort of damage do they expect from it?
Title: Another Charge cooler install
Post by: Warthog on September 06, 2005, 07:46:40 PM
FRO-- Like the idea of the self bleed, keep up the good work and keep us posted. :3gears-lh