Hi Guys,
I\'m running a completley standard Rx7 Type R at the minute but i am wanting more power and so i have heard i will need to upgrade the intercooler i want a FMIC so where would be the best place to get one i have seen plenty on Ebay but i\'m not so sure putting cheap stuff on my car. So any ideas guys on where you bought yours and as everyone wants i\'m sure the cheaper the better but obviously still a good make as i know they vary.
Which ones are the best ya know out of (HKS, Blitz, Greddy) that sort of stuff.
Cheers Lads
It all depends really. How much power do you want and what boost pressure do you want to run to?
V-mounts are the best...
Hi goose i\'m not 100% sure what power i want to be running i was thinking around the 350bhp at the minute but as for boost i have no idea new to all this you see sorry if this makes it difficult.
What are V mounts??????
Well, if you want less than 400 brake, you\'ll only need a SMIC of some sort. You\'ll get less lag that way.
If you are new to this, may I suggest modifying your car for reliability first. There\'s a whole bunch of stuff you need to do before upping the power, such as:
-Installing a boost gauge (if you don\'t already have one)
-Uprating the radiator and ensuring the hoses are in good condition
-Ensuring the vacuum lines that control the turbos are not cracked or hardened
-Installing some sort of upgraded ECU (ie Power FC)
-Check the fuel system is in good nick - clean injectors and new fuel filter. The stock system is good for 14 psi of boost.
-Additional mods, such as replacing stock AST (do a search)
All boring stuff, I know, but it\'ll save you money in the long run. If you are doing the work yourself, it\'ll give you a chance to learn about the car.
Get a FMIC and be done....apexi gt FMIC,no need to upgrade later on either.As for the increased lag that is a myth, the increased pressure drop is negligible at the most.I have the apexi FMIC with three inch pipework from turbo to intercooler and four inch after intercooler with a four inch stilway elbow.
So you are saying that an FMIC has no greater \'throttle volume\' (the volume of air contained between the turbos and the throttle body) than an SMIC setup?
Pressure drop is really dependant on the routing and total length of the pipework, as the FMIC itself should be more efficient. That is only one factor in creating lag.
I\'m a great believer in designing a system to spec, rather than over-specifying individual parts. There is always the trade off between drivability and usable power which must be considered.
Thanks goose thats great
Quote from: gooseSo you are saying that an FMIC has no greater \'throttle volume\' (the volume of air contained between the turbos and the throttle body) than an SMIC setup?
Pressure drop is really dependant on the routing and total length of the pipework, as the FMIC itself should be more efficient. That is only one factor in creating lag.
I\'m a great believer in designing a system to spec, rather than over-specifying individual parts. There is always the trade off between drivability and usable power which must be considered.
The pressure drop of a FMIC over a SMIC is NEGLIGIBLE, measure it and see.You need to be more concerned with lag when you are selecting different turbo(s) than when looking at FMIC vs SMIC.
Quote from: bin linerThe pressure drop of a FMIC over a SMIC is NEGLIGIBLE, measure it and see.You need to be more concerned with lag when you are selecting different turbo(s) than when looking at FMIC vs SMIC.
Thanks for that. I agree with what you\'re saying regarding pressure drop as I\'ve mentioned before. Although routing of the pipework is critical, for instance one 90 degree bend can produce a pressure loss of around 1 psi.
But you still haven\'t answered my question about the total volume of air in the inlet. Do you consider this to have no effect?
Quote from: gooseThanks for that. I agree with what you\'re saying regarding pressure drop as I\'ve mentioned before. Although routing of the pipework is critical, for instance one 90 degree bend can produce a pressure loss of around 1 psi.
But you still haven\'t answered my question about the total volume of air in the inlet. Do you consider this to have no effect?
Minimal, also this is not lag this is throttle response. Depending on when your turbo spools it won\'t even be noticeable.
You\'ll find the intecooler itself rather the intercooler pipes hasthe biggest affect on pressure drop also.
Chris,
Don\'t dismiss some of the ebay kits out there,I went for one off ebay from a US company with good feedback.Half the price of the Japanese stuff.
A little bit of work to fit but I have tested it extensively on track and it works extremely well and I\'ve been very happy with it,Pip at WGT also commented during tuning the car how well it performed.
Here\'s few piccys.
James
Yer that looks sweet mate of mine just bought one for his 200sx (bloody piston engines) lol it only cost him £160 and that is holding up well
To safely upgrade the intercooler (either FMIC or a v-mount) you need to look to the fuelling and ECU at the same time, possibly the injectors if you\'re upping boost as well. You should avoid running the injectors at 100% or anywhere close really - mid to late 80s is safe.
Cost of the intercooler will eb about half of the cost of the upgrade...
ECU ~£600
Fuel Pump ~£300 fitted
Injectors - £a few!
Mapping - ~£250+
You\'re probably looking at £1500-£2000 plus the intercooler.
While you\'re at it you\'ll need to upgrade the radiator - more power = more heat!
If you start pushing much above 300rwhp you\'ll also probably need to upgrade the clutch, possibly move to colder plugs and maybe add spark boost for it to run smoothly.
To get most benefit from the mods you\'ll ideally have already removed the Cat and upgraded the induction system.
At this point you\'ll have something between 300 and 350 rwhp (on standard twin turbos) so don\'t forget to upgrade the breaks!
By now you\'ve probably spent the best part of £5-6k and may as well spend the extra £1500-£2000 for a nice single turbo :D
Welcome to the inevitable world of modding your FD
Hmmm - don\'t want to get into a big tuning discussion so I won\'t comment on iaint\'s post, but to clarify the whole pressure drop thingy...
Intercoolers themselves do not cause the pressure drop, its the restriction seen on the setup before, and after the turbo all the way up to the intake. The turbo is only a pump, so the more restriction you impose on it (either side) the less power/pressure it will be able to develop. A bigger intercooler should have less restriction, and be more effective (if designed well) as the air will move slower through it, and sharp 90 degree elbows are a no no...
To get the best setup you need to consider the compressor map of the turbo your using and and stay in that efficient area!
Stopping now!...
Mike...
Quote from: MikeHmmm - don\'t want to get into a big tuning discussion so I won\'t comment on iaint\'s post, but to clarify the whole pressure drop thingy...
Sounds like you disagree with my summary..? :wiggle
Chris - One other thing to note about installing a FMIC is that (quite obviously) the rad sits behind it and it\'s VERY important to have an intercooler that allows enough air to pass through at sufficient speed to properly cool the rad. Essentially this means a less-dense core than some other cars can use due to the higher temps the FD operates at.
I\'ve had a lot of discussion with various people about intercoolers and the FD recently as I\'m in the process of having a custom one fabricated at the mo. It seems that larger isn\'t always better and that some of the big name kit (e.g. the Apexi GT) have a well deserved reputation - you\'re basically paying for the R&D that Apexi, etc, have put in to it!
One anecdotal piece to back this up - was chatting to Geff or Chris @ re:worx about this and they recalled one example where the stock intercooler provided better results than a largeish FMIC in terms of response and power...
just about every intercooler kit out there has 90 degree bends or tighter, i appreciate that straight is better but as for saying its a no no, i\'d like to see one fitted without a 90 degree bend or 2 somewhere in the inlet track.
Most Single turbo\'s have 180 degree bends coming out of them......
Just as a side, to back up what was said above, you must make sure if you fit a front mount that you will get enough air to your rad, which is why people are going for a v mount, best of both worlds, but you should really have a vented bonnet to make this work as well as it should.
I fitted mine flat in the bottom of the car, like an upside v mount, it works well, water temps stay nice and cool, air temps on the rolling road were 27 with an ambient of 24 degreesC at almost 1 bar of boost under hard load.
I bet you wish you hadnt asked now............ :xconfused :xconfused
My personal feeling with mods, is that the best way is to decide what you want to do, what power you want, speak to a tuner if your not doing it yourself, get things in the right order and work towards your goal, otherwise you will end up buying things that later down the line wont cope or are of no use. Also, be prepared for an engine rebuild at somepoint, this is the best time to do mods, but its a costly afair.... :eek
Regards
Tony
Agree with Iain,the primary reason I chose mine was it had a large frontal area but more importantly has quite a narrow core to allow plenty of airflow through to the rad,I\'ve also got extra ducting to the rad from the lower inlets in the RAYS bumper.Aircon has been ditched.
Compared to the OE stock mount,well there is no comparison really,I was seeing massive heat soak on the OE intercooler and as a result,silly inlet temps from which it would never really recover.The power would tail off dramatically and you\'d struggle to overhaul anything down the straight. :(
With the new setup the power is always there which is nice :D
James
Quote from: iaintSounds like you disagree with my summary..?
Its not that I disagree, just believe there are gains to be had by fitting a FMIC alone without the need for all the other mods you list. If your increasing boost, then yes the fueling needs attention -
sorry, just re-read your post - thats what you said... :spank
Quote from: iaintIt seems that larger isn\'t always better
Correct - I may have been misleading in my post.
Don\'t forget that controling the air flow is an important factor in designing an instalation.
To do it properly you need to know heat rejection figures for the engine (both coolant and turbo to intake air) with respect to engine power output. Also need coolant capacity and pump flow rates.
...or look for what works on other peoples cars. Sometimes, like in this case, easier...
Mike.
There\'s a lot of useful information on this post. I agree totally about the bends issue - unfortunately you can\'t do without at least 2 90 degree bends on a FD and sadly sometimes they have to be tight, shame since they are the major cause of pressure drop :(
As Mike says, flow is an extremely important issue. I fell foul of a very poorly built fmic (in fact it\'s probably the one that Geff or Chris mentioned) for this reason..
The fmic in question was from Forge motorsport. After a few days of fitting it (I had to fab the brackets and pipework) I took it up to reworx for mapping. Previous figures for my car with a smic (a ARC standard sized one) were 312rwbhp @ 7000rpm and approx 270lbft of torque @ 5000rpm. With the FMIC (after adding a load of fuel), the graph was identical up to 6krpm but dropped off to nothing afterwards netting a 30-35bhp loss.
Geff diagnosed a flow problem so we swapped to a standard SMIC and, hey presto, the power came back.
I\'ve since taken the FMIC off and, looking at the core through the end tanks, you can see why it\'s so bad - the tubes through the core are miniscule and many are blocked with blobs of weld. Imagine running 100 metres breathing through a straw and you get the idea. The end tanks are also pretty poor from a flow point of view, ie. square.
Anyway, lesson learned. I\'m in the process of fitting a PWR charge cooler which will give a much smaller inlet tract and much better flow :cool
[
Anyway, lesson learned. I\'m in the process of fitting a PWR charge cooler which will give a much smaller inlet tract and much better flow :cool[/QUOTE]
Another way forward, after extensive testing [including last weekends trip to the Ring] I can confirm that if well plumbed a C C is a very good option.
I was looking at Charge coolers but couldn\'t find any suitable ones...
Any of you guys with them feel like posting some pics and your experiences?
Mike.