Right its all in and up and running, still a couple of things to neaten up and a small weep on the water filter to sort out, otherwise all ok. Now the interesting bit... :)
Took it for its first trial, first run got to full boost..then nothing....wheres me power gone, then I remembered the reason why I was getting the little niggling \'youve forgotten something\' feeling, do the intercooler pipes back up Andy...doh!
Trial 2 :), worked out a bit better actually cos the time is was sat idling built the air temps up a bit. Cranked it up in 3rd and 4th gear and the inlet temps stayed constant, after coming off boost started to drop rapidly, soon got back down to 30C and stayed there, would get a 2 or 3 degree rise on say a sustained 4th gear run (private road officer!), but again drops down when off boost, a couple of times, mostly in low gear blasts, temp dropped degree or 2 on boost (I think, eyes everywhere). As anyone with a standard intercooler and an air temp meter will know, a sustained wot in 4th will result in temps skyrocketing so 2-3 degrees is not bad at all.
Stopped at the old dears and when I left air temps were up to 66C, found if i just got the boost high enough to bring the pump on, this got the temps down nice and quick.
Now im not sure if the reason the temps come down after boosting may be due to slow response of the air temp sensor, or just the last rememants of water coming out. I do have it facing against the air flow so last pumps of mist may be reaching intercooler giving it a bit of an cooling blast? Not sure really, either way im happy :) Very very good piece of kit, for under 200 notes you cant go wrong.
Best bit was when I got on a country road, was giving it a good blast round there, not looking at the inlet temps, before I started it was 31, when I finished it was still 31...thats what I was after.
For anyone whos interested to compare temps maybe set-up is standard i/c, filters/straight thru exhaust, pfc.
Forgot to mention car felt really strong all the time, this may just be due to me not having driven it for 3 weeks but it definately felt good :)
where did you get the kit?, what else did you have to buy?
//www.coolingmist.com , had a special for $300 single stage deluxe including clogged nozzle detector, water tank, pretty much everything, only thing extra I had to get was some electrical wire (you do get some, depending on how you install may be enough, i was greedy :) ), and some tube to run to the boost switch, he has an ebay store aswell with some cheap kits. Hes very handy to talk to, always seems to be there no matter what time you email!
I think my total was $350 inc shipping, then I had about £40 duty to pay, so more like about £230 all in
what size nozzle did you get with the kit ?
what psi pump are you running ?
Where is your nozzle located ?
3.9 gph nozzle, this is what he said it would be, havent tested the flow rate, pump is a 100psi one, and ive located the nozzle in about the middle of the intake pipe, with an angled injector that faces the against the flow of the air. I thought i would try this first based on a theory that it might atomise better (imagine spraying hose into wind, spray you get back, as opposed to with it). Think I will try changing the direction so it goes with air flow to see if theres any difference. And also removing angled injector and put it in the standard way spraying across the air flow.
Link to some of my install pics, excuse the mess! will neaten it all up eventually (http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16494&highlight=water)
forgot to say killed my stereo in the process, think it may have been when i shorted out the cigarette lighter connection when i was looking for an ignition live, anyone happen to know if they are on the same fuse, and which one it is :)
Glad it all came together for you.
You need the dual stage kit. It is awesome.
Scott
What PSI have you got your jet coming in at
I left it as it come which I believe is 10. I\'ve only got boost readings off the apexi so in kg/m3 (or similar!) so just gonna do a quick conversion, its coming on about 0.4 of them. May upgrade to dualies :) did you use clogged nozzle detectors, i left mine out in the end
If ive got the unit right (kilogram force/square centimeter) then its coming on at about 6 psi
No i just fitted the standard kit. Works really well. So well it has caused me a new prob. I smoked the clutch LOL
1GPH at .1bar
3.9GPH at .6 bar
Getting the same results as you but ambiant ish temps
Scott
Just come back from a quick blast in sdminus\'s car.
Wow what a machine !!!
Convinced me I need water injection in mine !
Gonna order it next month I reckon.
Scuttlerx - install looks good.
Scott- I can still smell the clutch fumes now lol !!
Gareth
Sounds good scott, my let down is when sat in traffic, etc really cos of the stock interheater, dont take long to drop, cant wait to do some more testing! Need to give running intercooler-less a try :)
What clutch you running, is it a standard jobby or have ya uprated it a bit
I was tempted to try a bit of pre turbo injection, i have got another whole seat recess to fill up :) nice 150psi and smallish injector to get a really fine mist, dont want a sandbalst effect :D
OK - someone explain WI
How it does what it does and why its better.
John
I used to have stock clutch...... Past tense LOL I am exploring the alc injection part of the whole thing.
Gmogle. At 165 on that track the clutch was not loving it at all. And the 5000rpm launch on the same track was a no no LOL.
WI seems very good. Try this
http://www.rx7club.com/forum/showthread.php?t=202871&highlight=water+injection
Scott
Short and simple version: What it does- cools air intake temps, prevents detonation (forgot to mention knock meter didnt go above 29, on about month old optimax too)
How it does it - injects air as a very fine mist, atomises under combustion taking a lot of heat out of the reaction, basically doing the same as when you run slightly rich fuelling to prevent detonation, only water is much more efficent due to high specific and latent heat capacity. Obviously too much water will cause bogging, and too little will be ineffective.
Mix with methane, acetone and the like and ive heard things get even better :) For more detailed explanations check out this thread (http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1764&highlight=water+injection)
Thanks
I\'ll look at the link.
John
I just installed an aquamist kit last week and am very impressed with the results.
Aquamist also run a very helpful forum on there website which will tell you everything you need to know about WI.
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/
Had some more test runs today, gave it a much harder time this time, wot thru 1st 2nd 3rd 4th a few times. Temps did rise on these occasions, from low 30\'s to 40 on one run, but at a reduced rate to normal, would probably be hitting the mid 50\'s/60\'s without (really should have wired the switch in for better testing :) ). When driving on and off boost, ie twistys, or boost then cruise, temps stayed very constant. If the temp was above ambient before the run, a couple of boosts/coasts would see it come down again then stay down.
Might be just me but it seems to work more efficiently in the lower gears rather than the higher gears (on wot). Also think having a dual set-up with an extra injector coming on when almost at maximum boost would be benefical, as it could probably handle a bit more water, have not experienced any noticable bogging down whatsoever.
Conclusion at the moment (for set-up as a whole, not just WI) is a definate improvement overall, probably will exploit the benefits the most in circuit sessions. I can still see heat build up in the queue affecting drag races, obviously it will be much better than before (not to mention safer) but not perfect yet.
I mirror the view about circuit racing. I think WI would be better suited to that rather than drag racing
Scott
Looks good, good results too, did you install it yourself? Doesnt need setting up along side the ECU then?
Yes took me ages but only cos ive never really worked much on a car before so was constantly double checking etc, someone with a bit of know how would do it very quick, think Scott done his in a day :)
No doesnt need setting up, you can get more advanced systems that are linked to ecu and inject a variable rate of water from a 3d map of boost, rpm, etc. Mines a simple boost activated one, wanted to start simple, and work up if I need to, working good so far :)
Think it might be one of them things where difference between a simple system and a more advanced one might not be that much except for the dent in your wallet.
Think my next step will be to play about with injector placement a bit see if that makes any difference, then go for the $99 dollar dual set-up pack and have a bit more water going in at high boost
Just doing the math, im injecting 246cc/min of water at the mo, and at 90% ive got 2520cc of fuel going in. That leaves me with an extra 132cc of water I can still inject to get 15% water to fuel ratio.
So a smaller injector (2.3g/h would be just about spot on, 144cc/min) that comes on near max boost would seem ideal, time to get ordering I think. Not sure where to put it though, maybe right up on the elbow.
How about this !
Scott
Im torn, dont know whether to go pre intercooler or not...being as its not very efficent I think the water maybe \'wasted\' by being injected before it. If I had a nice FMIC like yours I reckon id think differently :)
BTW, is your injector near throttle a normal one or angled one
I put it post ic as that was how it was recommended to me, I was also worried about the ic condensating. Maybe right after the turbo\'s it might be ok but I haven\'t found any evidence of this method?
I didn\'t have the angled injectors as I didn\'t like how big they were. Being thinking about running a 2nd system just to inject alcohol, instead of mixing it, been looking into this but isn\'t seeming likely at the moment :chat
Just ordered it :) got the fast delivery so hopefully have it hear and installed by next sat now I know what im doing (just!)
I was reading a thread about mixing, methanol and water go together, and nitromethane and methanol do, but when you\'ve got all three they have to be mixed in right quantities or the nitromethane wont dissolve/dilute properly.
2nd system would be good, some of the threads I was reading the people said ditch the water!
There\'s an interesting thread on injecting pure alcohol on rx7club.com
The problem is alcohol doesn\'t have the latent (sp?) heat capacity of water but adds fuel to the mixture. I\'m unsure of what to do with the information lol :xconfused
Me neither, alcohol has the 50% oxygen content which is something to with the extra fuel I think? more oxygen to burn, all getting a bit fuzzy to be honest, been reading too many threads too late at night :)
50/50 Methanol/water and an extra injector, I will leave it at that for now :)
although.......i may try some acetone in there too :D
I find that if say my air temps 35
if I plant my foot down throught 2nd and through 3rd then look at my controller straight after it\'s reading like 29.
If I staright away blast through say 3rd gear and look at the controller it\'s ready 23. Seems as though it\'s quite affective at killing intak charge which is not the reason I installed it so pretty pleased.
I have mine about 2 inch before throttle body 140 psi pump, 375ml@60psi jet
mine comes on at 6psi 50% duty cycle and opens linear to 17 psi where it\'s at 100% duty cycle.
Sounds like you have a good set-up Brian :) Do you get the same sort of results when full throttle in 4th and 5th as you do in 2nd and 3rd? I\'ve noticed a slight drop off, still works just not as well.
Just crusing along dual carraigeway last night, few 5th gear half boosts got my temp down to 17C :) dont think ive ever seen it that low! Handy say after a traffic jam or something if the car has got heatsoaked
Im planning on stickng my second injector where you have your one, reckon having it there will really help kill the charge.
What are you using to control your injector cycle, is it an aquamist system?
What I am after, dont know if such a thing exists, is an rpm switch. Something that will be normally closed till a pre-set rpm then open...
Try this one
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7987235627&category=33740&sspagename=WD2V
Hope it helps
Scott
I seem to remember there is a prob with some alchs in which they seperate in the intake tract....not 100 percent sure tho
nice one cheers for link scott, something like that does exist then I can put my plan into action (if needed) :)
Having my second injector set-up for high boost is not gonna stop it coming on at say 4k rpm when inj duty is still low so may need the rpm switch to keep it say 6k and above. Thats if it starts bogging down in low rpm, if it doesnt then happy days :)
I really dont think you will need it mate.
Mine does not bog at all which really surprised me !
Scott
That\'ll be handy then.
I changed the injector last night, took out the angled bit and just had it spraying across pipe. I though the same as you having that big bit in the middle of the pipe might disrupt the air flow, nice and flush now.
Had a quick test last night on way home, hard to make direct comparison as conditions were different, but when replicating conditions where temp use to rise, it seemed to control this better. Car did feel like it pulled a bit harder too, not sure if the angled bit was disrupting the flow, boost got to a slighty higher pressure than it has last couple of days.
One thing I did notice, old set up a couple of half boosts which got the pump to run 3 or 4 cycles, would make the temps drop, didnt do this every-time with this set-up (does do it sometimes), think maybe now as its not sprayin against flow its not getting enough time to cool before temp sensor, so second injector might be best placed just after intercooler to give it whole tract to cool in, and current one best for det control and stopping temps rising.
Ways it runs now and then kind of matches what it says here (http://www.aquamist.co.uk/cp/sys2/techsys2/diag/fig10.html).
On lower pressures the old position injector might have had water reach somewhere near point C, or at least not go straight into thottle body, making it the best one for intercooling, and like-wise how it is now is making it like point A.
Might be talking out of my a-rse but it all kind of makes sense :D
2nd injector is now installed, need to set up the boost switch properly (bit too wet today + running out of time fast), at the moment it is just 1/4 of a turn more than first one.
Initial results look good, like I say its wet today so hard to give a proper test, temps are seem to be dropping quicker again, so all good. Real test will be at the weekend, will see if the consistently low temps will give a better 1/4 mile time/speed.
2nd injector is 2.3g/ph
I\'ve been following this link as I tend to do with everything that is aimed towards a better run, longer life engine, and to be honest the technical side of it was making me think it was a really complicated affair, but that image you just posted makes it all seem so simple, I assume the blue pipes have the injectors on the end, the pump is at the other end of the pipes, and the electronic gubbins that controls the system is all connected to the pump in the cockpit somewhere?
simplicity!
You may have unwittingly created quite an effective how-to thread!
Yes its a very simple set up, best way to start I think. Pump and tank in the back seat recess, then there is an inline water filter. The pipes then go to the solenoid which is wired to a boost activated switch, when the preset boost is hit solenoid opens, pump pumps and water goes in :) There is a bit of wiring to a relay which is not very tricky, especially if your good with car electrics, hardest bit for me was routing pipe/wires cos I didnt know where to start :)
Just got a 12.96 today so must be doing something right :) they timed 0-60 as 4.36
Spilled methanol mix all over back seat recess, hope I got all of it cleared out cos the warning label on methanol looked pretty nasty :eek
Good work Andy !
Shame i couldnt make it.
How much meth did you run and how does it differ from running water only.
Scott
It was quite a weak mix in the end, was 60% water to start with, and there was still 1/4 of a tank of water in there when I added it. Would have made it stronger but I want to check out the whole fumes in the cabin thing first! Warning label said serious irreversible damage from inhalation, scared me a bit! As its diluted with water presume not a prob, have sorted out my little leak to so hopefully im safe!
Seemed to work more efficiently, reckon a 50/50 mix will give a more noticeable increase. First 2 runs were just on water, they were 13.08 and 13.09, last run on meth was the 12.96, whether that was just better run or whether the meth helped i dont know...imagine it must have done a bit :)
ran the tyre pressures down a bit this time, on about 20-21, may go a bit lower tomorrow :) Saw carlos there he says hes going round the slamom tomorrow so gonna keep an eye out for him :)
Right just run a stronger methanol mixture today, close on 50/50, and I can see a definate improvement :)
Sustained 4th and 5th gear runs on that handy private road resulted in no increase in air temps when on boost (compared to temps slowly rising when on just water), and the usual temp drop off when off the throttle.
Adding the methanol seems to make the whole thing work more effectively, definately worth experimenting with.
At some point in the future will have to see how it affects the afr\'s, and maybe have it mapped to exploit some of the extra octane points.
Scott, calling on your sparky knowledge, any chance of a wiring diagram so I can have a blast on idle from a switch rather than fiddling about under the bonnet just before the start line :)
I did find if I did it too early, temps would have risen again before ive got on the line (happen a couple of times, mainly due to hold ups on the people before me!).
There is a normally closed pin on your micro switches (NC). (boost switch) It is the unused one. Take a wire form that pin to a switch. Then ground the other side of the switch.
When you push the switch it should spray. Was about to do mine. Running out of time to get meth. So far 100% meth is on a 1 week back order.
It should richen up your afr\'s
Scott
cheers Scott, i shall give that a go, forgot about the other port on the boost switches tbh :)
pops and bangs quite a lot when you come off the throttle after doing that, bloke asked me if I had anti-lag :D
I have a 25litre drum of pure 100% meth if you want it ? £60
Gonna give it a go from the model shop. i can get 5 lters for £7.
If i decide to really wind it up i will be after you for it LOL But i think we are gonna be ok at the mo. Im loving it at the mo
Scott
Anti lag LOL LOL.... you should have said yeah it is triggered from my flux capacitor lol i bet he would have nodded and said nice one mate :rollin
Just waiting on my kit to turn up from cooling mist, had the aquamist kit on my MR2, thought i would try the cooling mist one this time.
How noisy are the pumps in this kit ? as i will probably fit the whole lot in one of the rear storage bins, i had my aquamist kit in the engine bay and the water did get quite warm, in a RX7 engine bay it would be a lot worse i would imagine.
Mine is at Edinburgh at the moment awiting payment of custom charges, anyone know if i will have to travel up there and pay in person, or can i pay on my card over the phone ?
Nick
You can pay on a card or pay pal.
The pump is quite quiet. Howeva i cant even hear my stereo over my exhaust.
Scott