I\'ve been mulling over a few ideas recently regarding charge temps and I wanted to check if lowering the intake will result in changing the A/F ratio
I\'m pretty sure it dosn\'t \'cause I seem to remember that if you get the charge temps down the air is denser which means you can fit in more fuel but as your actually getting more air in aswell the ratio should stay the same , is this correct ???
I\'m planning fitting WI in the future and am also planning on building a CO2 intercooler spray system , this should get the charge really cold . If all this did happen to lean it out a bit it should be fine as its running well rich at the mo
Another couple of ideas I had where would a CO2 spary work on the radiator to lower engine temps , this probably wouldn\'t be a practical use as you would need it on all the time to make any real use . The other was regarding charge coolers , I\'m hoping to go down the route eventually and was wondering if a CO2 spray on the CC radiator would have the same effect as spraying an intercooler
The reason I\'m interested in CO2 systems is I reckon I can build one really cheap , all depends on the price of the solonoid really as I\'m sure that will be the hardest part to source
Any of your vast wisdom will be great
Cheers
Paul
Will depend a lot on what pressures you want to run the CO2 at, straight from the bottle you are gonna be looking at between 400 - 1000 psi (depends what heat the CO2 is at)
if you are drawing off liquid, this will cause the bottle to freeze down lowering bottle pressure/ ambient heat will cause the pressure to rise.
Your best bet would be to have a regulater on the bottle, and use a syphon type bottle that draws off liquid, then just set your required pressure, i would imagine about 50 - 100 psi would do it.
Would not cost the earth to get a solenoid that runs at this pressure, just so long as its designed for use in cold applications.
If you get a pressure controlled solenoid that triggers at say 5 - 7 psi you could have it rigged so that as soon as you start to boost it opens the solenoid and gives a nice cold blast to the intercooler/intake pipes etc.
You can actually buy ready made systems that do all this, but they are pricey, as you say it would not cost a great deal to make one yourself.
I have made up a lot of systems like this, but never for an automotive application.
Cheers for the input ,
All the info I\'ve got on this subject is designed for making NO2 systems and it states not to use regulators as it causes the liquid to boil and foam , I suppose it is very important to properly meter the amout of NO2 being injected into the intake and not as important to meter the amount of CO2 in a spray so in theory a regulator could be used , however once the liquid boils back into a gas will it be cold enough ??
Would the extra cost of a regulator offset the cost of a 1000psi solonoid ? also am I right in thinking that if used at that same size jets a bottle running on 100psi will last longer than a bottle running on 1000psi ? or does it not matter as the jets will limit the flow ??
I want to activate the system via an arming switch and a microswitch set for WOT as the CO2 will only really be used on the track , the WI was going to be for every day use
well if you use a syphon type bottle then all you will draw off is liquid.
A syphone bottle has a tube running from the top to the bottom, so it always draws liquid.
If its only for track days then i would use either a 20oz or 32oz tank with a standard on off valve fitted to it, then just run a line out to your solenoid.
You can get these bottles cheap at places that sell paintball gear, for the solenoid just use a standard CO2 one that runs 12v operated off a micro switch.
Just dont let the bottle get to hot, i.e dont leave in direct sunlight or in the car when not in use, as they have a tendency to blow there saftey valves once they get to hot.
Overall its a very simple thing to make, and would be very effective.
Seeing as you\'ve built systems before , do you know any decent UK suppliers for the valve , adapter and solenoid ???
I used to work in the bottling industry, making up systems for carbonating soft drinks, so i doubt the stuff i used would be much use, mainly as most of it was either 240v or 3phase.
For the bottle go to a paintball supplier like i said, ask them to convert it to syphon feed, 20oz will be aluminium 32oz will be carbon fibre wrapped, get them to fit a ON/OFF valve to it, this will cost you about £20 - £50 depending on your bottle choice.
They will also sell an adapter to fit the ON/OFF bottle to allow you to fit the hose to it.
These are drilled to take a 1/8 fitting if i remember correctly (used to play a lot of paintball)
Your other option is to use a small welding/pub size bottle, but if its for track use bear in mind that a full CO2 bottle is heavy as its full of liquid.
They will be able to supply the hose as well i expect, if not get some hydraulic hose made up.
Your biggest problem is gonna be finding a 12v solenoid as most are 24v, i\'ll have a look round and see if i can find any for you.
Having thought about it, there is no reason you cant just use a nitrous solenoid to control the CO2, i am not sure what pressure NO2 runs at but it would be worth looking in to it as NO2 solenoids will be cheaper then buying a cryo one.
Try here for the NO2 ones
http://www.turbobits.co.uk/acatalog/nitrous_and_fuel_solenoid_valves.html
This firm also sells bottles as well, give them a phone, from looking at their site you could get everything you need off them
any other questions just fire away
What if you managed to freeze the water in your radiator? CRACK HISSS puddle? They are only plastic end tanks on 3rd gens. Just a thought. The CO2 spray bar idea is a good one. just wonder what the added weight to horsepower/engine safety ratio is?
Point taken about the radiator , already decided it wasn\'t really a viable solution , hopefully I\'ll be able to make it work on a CC radiator as I\'ll have a better idea of how cold things get by then
I\'m sure the spray bar will be worth it though , engine saftey shouldn\'t be an issue and weight sould be kept to a minimum now as I\'ve opted for the 20oz bottle option , as for power gains we\'ll just have to see , the kit will come into its own on days like last sunday at pod were everyones cars seemed to be struggling a bit with the heat
I doubt you could ever freeze the radiator, the water would have to be stationary in it for a start, and the heat generated by the RX7 engine is immense.
You would only ever get it to cool down a bit.
Your best bet is to use the spray bar on the intercooler, or make up a pipe within a pipe and fit it on your induction pipes, then vent the co2 along it to cool the intake charge.
Right things are moving along nicely now , I\'ve been passing emails back and forth all day with Richard at Turbobits ( thanks for the link NixRX7 ) and we have come up with a pretty good solution
We\'re going for a 20oz bottle with valve and adapter to suit
Braided steel line from bottle to engine
N2O solenoid
Spray bar kit that he sells , its supposed to be a water spray bar but it will work fine
By the way he sells Aquamist kits about 10% off RRP , I\'ve only seen them cheaper on flea bay ( and you can\'t always trust them )
I take it that I\'m right about this not affecting A/F ratios ?? maybe I should change the title of the thread
If you reduce the air temp the temp sensor in the UIM will pick this up and the ECU will adjust the fuel and timing acordingly. As long as your car runs sweet on a cold damp night, it should run sweet with the charge cooling.
Only problems I\'ve had with its running is the fact its running too rich at the mo and I\'m losing some power , thats why I wasn\'t bothered if it leaned out a bit
How long where you thinking of running it for ? if its something you will be using a lot you may be better off going for a larger bottle, as a 20oZ drawing liquid might not last long.
If its just for track days you could always take a big bottle (pub size) and refill the smaller one when it emptied, if you intend using it for road as well, and lets face it you probably will, then you might be better off going for a 5lb bottle (big nitrous size)
Glad that link helped you out, and good luck, post some pics when its all finished
Quick update for you , all the parts have arrived and are almost ready for dispatch , Richard has just got to drill the 0.3mm holes in the spray bar , hopefully I\'ll have the bulk of the kit installed by JAE , I\'m not ordering the pipework untill I have choosen my mounting positions
Regarding how long a bottle will last I\'m trying to find out how many holes the spraybar will have , I\'m sure I\'ve seen a formula somewhere for working it out , the kit is only really going to be used for 1/4 mile so as long as a bottle will last for 13 secs I\'ll be okay , looking into the possibility of running 2 bottles and taking a bigger bottle with me to refill them , we\'ll see how we go , the thing against one big bottle is the weight . Obviously I\'m going to play with it alot when its first installed but hopefully once the novelty has worn off I\'ll just use it as intended
Mind you I can see me sticking a purge valve on it just for effect :D then I may be hooking up a bigger bottle , I\'ve actually got an old fire extinguisher which I was origionally going to use , might see if I can get an adapter nut so I can hook it up for messing about
Also today I\'ve installed fans to the back of the intercooler to help the air get pulled through and stop hot air getting pulled back through , I\'m determined to turn this stock interheater into an intercooler :D
I ran a water spray bar and have concidered a co2 version. I have a Nx ntercooler spray bar on my fmic.
However i decided not to go with the co2 version because i was concearned about sucking co2 into the intake.
I m by no means an expert on this but i have ditched it for a dual stage water injection kit. Need less to say i am very pleased with it and my FMIC. Im not attracted to the charge cooler due to the fact my FMIC works so well. Water temps are stable and it is a very reliable setup.
Beware if you drop your temps to low you could experiance fuel drop out !!!!
Scott
How low are we talking ?? and whats fuel drop out ??
One of the main resasons to start this project was to try something new , I think this setup will really prove its self on really hot days when even the water in your WI tanks is starting to warm up
I dont know the full in\'s and out\'s but believe it to be when the air charge is very low. From what i understand of it when the correction table can not provide enough fuel. ( hense why i dont map my own car LOL )
My water spray bar was my saviour at rotorstock but let me down badly at santa pod. Its not precise enough. Basically i was always guessing how long to run it for. I used 3 liters of water in 2 runs at the pod.
On that day i decided to go WI. I really rate it. best mod i have done. When i looked into the co2 many people told me to be careful of the solinoid freezing open.
Im no expert just thought i would share some of my findings. :-)
I am actually planning on fitting WI as well for everyday use and the CO2 will be for use on the strip ,
just got round to doing the CO2 first , thought I\'d ask a few questions and I got chatting to Richard at Turbobits and the rest is history , before I knew it we\'d designed the system and were trying to work out the final details , whole process lasted less than a week , its costing me a bit more than I wanted to pay but I couldn\'t find a way of reducing the costs easily
Once I get this set up and running I\'ll move on to WI , want to find out as much as I can as I don\'t necessarily want to go down the "usual" route , also fancy building my own kit , not to save money but understand it all a bit more
Do you have a air chrage temp gauge ?
I get air charge temps at a few degs above ambient or a deg or 2 less with WI. The prob i found was that you only truly know what your air charge will be when you start you run. By which point it will be too late. You could try putting in a boost activated switch to trigger it but i feal you will drop your temps too far which will lead to differant probs but all with a similar result.
Scott
I can lend you my nx spary bar if you like so you can have a play
Cheers for the offer of lending me the spraybar but my stuff will be being shipped out today
Blimey I didn\'t realise the WI was that effective or is that just your FMIC doing its job ? , I don\'t think I\'m going to get things that cool as I\'m running a stock interheater , eventually I want to go to a CC with the CO2 on the CC\'s radiator , I\'m going to activate it via a micro switch on WOT ( the WI was going to be done on boost ) . I\'ve been put off FMIC\'s in the past because of the stuff said about the radiator not getting enough cooling and pressure drop due and lag due to the length of pipe run and bends
I better get myself a intake temp gauge and speak to someone in the know , really didn\'t realise you can go too low as when you inject nitrous into the inlet manifold thats pretty damn cold and I thought the temp sensor would pick that up
When you inject nitrous you also add fuel to the best of my knowledge.
I think there is a lot of scare mongering with the fd. FMIC is one of those things. If its installed well the water temps dont suffer at all. I did a very long stint ( on a track of course) at 110 - 160 mph on a very very hot day and my water temps came up to about 85 degs.
You could use a boost activated switch like on my WI. I think they are cheap My WI comes in a .1 bar and then the second stage at .7 bar all controlled by boost activated micro switches
Scott
it depends what type of nitrous kit your running , wet you inject extra fuel , dry you don\'t
I spoke to Richard about this today , he didn\'t think it would be an issue but we\'ll just have to see
The new problem is I don\'t think a bottle is going to last very long , did a quick calc and worked out the bottle should last about 8 seconds :eek: so to combat this we\'re put less holes in the spray bar and once I\'ve formed it I\'m going to solder over any holes that aren\'t needed , hopefully as the bottle gets emptied it will cool which will lower bottle pressure and make the CO2 last longer , if I can get 20 secs out of a bottle I can live with that so 2 bottles would give me 40 secs which would hopefully enough gas for 3 runs
This is bearing in mind that the feed line length won\'t be an issue , obviously once the bottle is empty theres no pressure to push down whats still in the line so this would be dead gas
As I\'ve said before this is going to be a case of trial and error , hopefully it will all pay off :D
Who said anything about budget ???
Decided today that a 20oz bottle just wasn\'t going to cut it , previously thought about using two bottles but realised today that it only worked out a touch cheaper than a 5lb bottle , add another £30 and you\'ve got a 11lb bottle
An 11lber wouldn\'t need filling very often , also wouldn\'t need a decanting whip which I would have done with a 20ozer so an 11lber it is , price has now doubled so the budget is well and truely shot , and at the end of the day if it isn\'t very effective I\'ll just get a fuel solonoid , fogger and refill the bottle with NO2
Should have most the gear this week so it should be somewhere near by JAE
Good luck !!! will be nice to see the results
Scott
You\'re a nutter. :D
Anyway, spose there is a risk of leaning out, for the same reasons there\'s a risk of leaning out if you have intake / exhaust / big turbo - you\'re shoving more lumps of air in. You\'ve done it a different way, but that\'s still what you\'re doing...
The car\'s aware of intake temp so it will know it has to inject more fuel - but if something in the fuelling systems can\'t provide any more, you\'ll lean out! That might be because you\'ve gone off the ECU map, or if you have fixed that, you might go beyond what the standard fuel injectors can handle. Have you got anything fitted that will show you injector duty?
Quote from: zevansYou\'re a nutter. :D
Nice to be appriciated :bandit
I don\'t have anything to show the duty cycle of the injectors and as for leaning out , if its only a bit I can\'t see this being a problem as its running well well well rich at the mo due to the RE-Amemiya ECU , so rich infact I\'m losing quite a bit of power ( thats according to Noble Motorsport )
When we went to the rolling road day down there I ran it with the boost button on , they assured me that if it started leaning out they would stop it there and then as I was a touch concered after hearing of a few fatalities connected to this , anyway , A/F ratio started off at 13:1 but by 3500 revs had dropped to 10:1 , should have been making 1.1 bar with the button but only made a shade under 13psi when the second turbo kicked in , it then slowley fell to 11psi . They assured me this was because of the overfueling , should the graph to Pip and he agreed , Cant quite afford an Apexi at the mo , so I\'ve decided to live with it untill I can
I\'ve taken the day off tomorrow to start the fitting , once its up and running I\'m going to hook 3 digital meters with mp probes on them to see how effective its working
1st will be in one of the filters so I know what temp the airs starting at
2nd will be before the intercooler so I\'ll know what damage the turbos have done
3rd will be either after the intercooler or around the inlet manifold to see how well air has cooled
I\'m planning on doing 3 runs
1st will be with intercooler fans and CO2 off
2nd just intercooler fans on , don\'t think this will make a great difference on the move think they\'ll do a better job standing still as they\'ll still be pulling air through
3rd will be the major one , intercooler fans on and CO2 on
Might do a 4th run with CO2 on but fans off just out of curiosity
I have know idea what sort of results I\'m going to see yet but I\'m hoping its going to be worth the trouble
Any idea what sort of temps are going to cause problems , would have thought the map can deal with most temps as I can\'t see things going into sub centigrades and anything above should be like driving in the middle of winter , does this sound logical ???
At the end of the day , as long as I don\'t cause any damage to the engine its all good , if it doesn\'t work , so be it , I\'ve learnt a bit and tryed a different aproach to others on here , if it does work though , great stuff , I\'ll have opened up a whole new avenue for others to explore , I know CO2 sprays are\'nt a new thing but I aint heard of anyone on here doing it ( could be a good reason for this )
On a different subject , I beat a Honda CBR 400 ( we think ) last night , I was well chuffed as my mate whos into his bikes assures me that they are pretty fast , he was also equally impressed that I did him :D
RACING IS NOT BIG OR CLEVER but this is how it went , standing start held him all the way through the gears , had to hit the rev buzzer in every gear to keep with him then finally flew past him at about 135 ish ( my mate reckons they top out at about 130 , this is why we think it was a 400 )
Anyway , more on the CO2 tomorrow hopefully with some pics
Fitting is causing more thinking about than I anticipated , there is just no room under that bonnet
Anyway , got the sparybar installed , solenoid in there and piped to the spraybar , WOT is on , that took a bit of thinking about and jiggery pokery
Just got to run the braided line through the car or under the car can\'t work out which yet , and mount the bottle when it arrives , small mistake by Turbobits , the ordered it full of N2O rather than CO2 , hasn\'t charged me and it will work the same , then I just got to wire it all up ( thankfully thats the easy bit )
Mounting the bottle is going to take a bit of imagination as there isn\'t enough room under the shelf to mount the bottle on the correct brackets , I got a rough idea but I\'ll have to see if I can get the bits I need
Things are looking good for being finished for JAE , but I better not do any more today , getting grief off the missis for not spending any time with her
OK, you\'re not a nutter, you crossed the fine line into genius!
Cheers fella :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
Got the bottle plumbed in on Sunday at JAE , no leaks but unfortunatley the pressure was too great for the nylon tube connecting the solonoid to the spray bar , it popped off the hosetail a few times then I got a cable tie on it after the barbs but it burst the tube
I\'m getting a 1/8"NPT hosetail sent out to go in the solonoid and I\'m going to get hold of some high pressure hose with a 1/4" ID , hopefully this will sort the problem
I doubt nylon tube will ever hold the pressure, you would be better off getting hold of a length of brake pipe or similar diamiter copper pipe and bending it to fit and use 1/8 fittings to hold it all together.
First thing I thought of was to use braided line or copper brake pipe , unfortunatley the fitting coming out of the solenoid is 1/8"NPT and I thought I\'d struggle getting the fittings , I reckon some hydrolic high pressure hose or possibly some high pressure fuel injection hose should do the trick , after all this is after the solenoid so shouldn\'t be taking full bottle pressure
I\'m going to e-mail a couple of companies to see what we can find , I\'ll keep you all posted
Sorted , got some pipe that works fine
The intercooler gets well and truely gassed , just hope it doesn\'t get pulled into the intakes as it does come through the intercooler while the engine is off , how much do intakes suck when the engines at full tilt ?? however hopefully the air being forced through the intercooler will send any excess gas straight out of the engine bay
Hopefully I\'ll get a chance to do some testing tomorrow , after I\'d gassed the cooler it did ice up so I\'m hoping its going to work well
If it works really well the interheater/cooler will become known as the cryocooler :D