Mazda Rotary Club

well.....

My car is getting hot as **** now in this weather, so much so I\'m getting scared to drive it.

Took it for a spin the other day and it was hot and sticky so all the bikes were out. Had to play with them. Anyhow my car was getting hot, like 61 - 62 hot. Got to the supermarket to stock up on BBQ essentials (beer), gave it a few mins on idle, at which air temps were up to 67 and took about 30 mins arounf the supermarket. Got back to my car fired it up. Air temp 80!!!!!


Cooled down to about 56 pretty quick on driving but I ain;t happy at all.


Got an uprated smic and apexi dual induction kit.

No vents in the bonnet and a stock nose. Currently running about 330 atw.



Guys I got about 300 quid spare tops at the minute to spend on my rex and I want to know what I can do for that money to help reduce temps.

And don\'t tell me to get a hacksaw to the front end :rollin

Water injection sounds like a good idea and will be close to budget I would hope.

WI is the way to go SMIC are not the best [more like interheaters:D ]

Shop around you should be able to pick up a kit of ebay for that money.

also the intakes need ducting and protecting to actually take in cooler air from the outside, rather than hot air from the engine bay...  have you a direct feed for these?

QuoteOriginally posted by Archbish
also the intakes need ducting and protecting to actually take in cooler air from the outside, rather than hot air from the engine bay...  have you a direct feed for these?

I have thought about that, it would also vent the hot air they spit out when in vacuum. Got a scoop for the intercooler but nothing for the intakes.


Whats the best plan for that? get a fibreglass guy to knock something up?

THe cheapest thing might be to take a hacksaw (or something a bit more precise) to strategic points on the front, sadly...

Or maybe even put a small vent in the bonnet behind the intake - I\'m assuming you\'ve got the usual big-ass cone at the front driver\'s side of the bay? Dunno how much vents are but surely they can\'t be 300 quid, even painted?

(behind cos it\'s better to try and pull air through than shove it in - won\'t go in if it can\'t get out)

Reckon your best bet is definetely water injection.  I don\'t think ducting to the inlet would make much of a difference, it\'s still going to have to go through all the warm intake tract, tiny SMIC and into a hot plenum before getting to the combustion chamber.  Also during WOT it\'ll be pulling in so much air from the engine bay that any ducting other than having the filters stuck outside the car will make much difference.

After WI I\'d go for FMIC/CC or vented bonnet.

I popped a tip a few weeks back running around 14psi through a stock SMIC at 6000rpm (WOT).  Air temps were really high and it just detonated.  Short of having WI and FMIC I think you run the risk of high intake temps at higher boost and I certainly wouldn\'t recommend it.  I learnt the lesson the hard and expensive way!

H

High inlet temps are deadly to a rotary, WI is the way forward, I mean if Tim [RX motors] can run his purple thingy WITHOUT  an intercooler and depend on WI for 11sec passes, must be the way to go.

QuoteOriginally posted by Spotlamp
Reckon your best bet is definetely water injection.  I don\'t think ducting to the inlet would make much of a difference, it\'s still going to have to go through all the warm intake tract, tiny SMIC and into a hot plenum before getting to the combustion chamber.  Also during WOT it\'ll be pulling in so much air from the engine bay that any ducting other than having the filters stuck outside the car will make much difference.

After WI I\'d go for FMIC/CC or vented bonnet.

I popped a tip a few weeks back running around 14psi through a stock SMIC at 6000rpm (WOT).  Air temps were really high and it just detonated.  Short of having WI and FMIC I think you run the risk of high intake temps at higher boost and I certainly wouldn\'t recommend it.  I learnt the lesson the hard and expensive way!

H

cheers, thats exactly what I was afraid of happening to me. Its just crazy hot in this weather. If I keep cruising it won;t go over about 54 but when I switch it off for a while it goes through the roof. I try to always open the bonnet after a run but its just not always possible. Ie busy supermarket car park.

Water injection will now be researched.

I think your after the cheapest methods to reduce temps, im thinking the best method to employ would be insultation.... WI sounds expensive??

how about trying one of those radiator water additives? i heard they can knock your temp down a few degrees or so? you might have already done this tho.

what about using heat wrap on some pipes and maybe sticking some sort of heat shield under the intercooler? a barrier would help things along, i have done a quick research on google and found this site that specialises in reducing temps by insultation methods.

design engineering (http://www.designengineering.com/products.asp?m=sp&pid=32)

they also do C02 spray systems, but i reckon just like nitrous you will be forever filling that bottle up every couple of days!

WI kits are around the £350 mark I think.  I know over planned budget, but there\'s simply nothing to match them in terms of cost effectiveness.  I think the aquamist 1s system is their base entry system and one I\'m getting fitted.  I think Max is running the same system, probably worth asking him for an opinion.

HTH
H

QuoteOriginally posted by Spotlamp
WI kits are around the £350 mark I think.  I know over planned budget, but there\'s simply nothing to match them in terms of cost effectiveness.  I think the aquamist 1s system is their base entry system and one I\'m getting fitted.  I think Max is running the same system, probably worth asking him for an opinion.

HTH
H

cheers mate. I\'m definitely goinf in that direction


Budgets are like deadlines, you just hear a whistling as they go shooting past.

Hi,
Mazda company  has been spent millions of pounds res/testing/hours on wonderful rotary engines at all  temp condintion.
Most Rx\'s went  to U.S, the weather is hotter !!!! that U.K.
Cheapest is cleaning radiator and undertray with low pressure tap water hose  to clear road debris and check cooling fan.
The cost is.... nothing,Try that?
Better to spent on more beers with the mates at the weekends than wasting  money on  **** injection

QuoteOriginally posted by ian duncan
Hi,
Mazda company  has been spent millions of pounds res/testing/hours on wonderful rotary engines at all  temp condintion.
Most Rx\'s went  to U.S, the weather is hotter !!!! that U.K.
Cheapest is cleaning radiator and undertray with low pressure tap water hose  to clear road debris and check cooling fan.
The cost is.... nothing,Try that?
Better to spent on more beers with the mates at the weekends than wasting  money on  **** injection

yes thats all well and good but when you increase power you increase temperatures. Therefore need to increase cooling.. Anyhow we\'re clearly talking about air temps here, not water temps.

I just ordered a kit from Cooling Mist (http://www.coolingmist.com) , got the Deluxe single stage performance package, cost $300 and looks like it will be a good piece of it, equivalent to an aquamist 1s, comes with tank and air temp gauge too (but as I have a temp gauge already he let me swop it for some other items inc brass inline filter, angled injector housing, extra injectors, etc). $50 for delivery

Check out
this thread (http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=202871&page=1&pp=15) , bit long at 19 pages but worth a read,  Zerobanger is the guy behind cooling mist.

If you like i\'ll let you know how I get on with the kit, you\'ve only got to start reading about water injection and seeing the results people have to realise it is the way forward. Im starting off small with a simple boost activated set-up, but in the course of time I hope to build an integrated system with failsafes so the car can be tuned to the new limits water injection brings.

Ian dont see how spending money on WI is a waste it works simple as.
Si

QuoteOriginally posted by ScuttleRX
I just ordered a kit from Cooling Mist (http://www.coolingmist.com) , got the Deluxe single stage performance package, cost $300 and looks like it will be a good piece of it, equivalent to an aquamist 1s, comes with tank and air temp gauge too (but as I have a temp gauge already he let me swop it for some other items inc brass inline filter, angled injector housing, extra injectors, etc). $50 for delivery

Check out
this thread (http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=202871&page=1&pp=15) , bit long at 19 pages but worth a read,  Zerobanger is the guy behind cooling mist.

If you like i\'ll let you know how I get on with the kit, you\'ve only got to start reading about water injection and seeing the results people have to realise it is the way forward. Im starting off small with a simple boost activated set-up, but in the course of time I hope to build an integrated system with failsafes so the car can be tuned to the new limits water injection brings.

cheers mate.

We\'ve had this conversation before, as you\'ve got the same intercooler as me.

It would be good to know what difference it makes to you, as I guess I would get similar results.

no probs, ill post up my findings.

I\'ve only got the stock intercooler though mate, are you mixing me up with someone else?

Just a point on WI, I\'m sure you can get them all over the shop, but Geff sells a bleedin huge tank which replaces the stock rear washer bottle.  If you\'ve ever had the cover off in the boot you\'ll see it\'s quite tiny, but the one Geff\'s got is blinkin\' massive and fills the entire space behind the cover, about 2.5 feet wide I reckons.  Â£100 or there abouts.

HTH
H

QuoteOriginally posted by ScuttleRX
no probs, ill post up my findings.

I\'ve only got the stock intercooler though mate, are you mixing me up with someone else?

probably, my memories not what it should be.

You have got to get colder air going into the intake. Induction kits without shielding and cold air ducting are the most effective way to increase intake temperatures! There\'s no point in thinking it\'s ok to draw hot air into the induction side and then try and cool it. You may as well get the air going in as cool as possible THEN cool it further.
At the end of the day, you can fabricate a heatshield for peanuts and you can run a piece of ducting from behind the front spoiler up into the shielded area. All in all about half an hours work and costs next to nothing. THEN think about other things to spend money on.

This an interesting thread, as it\'s always seems to get differing views.
Personally, i was debating making a airduct in the front bumper-Reverie do some nice carbonfibre ducts to put in place-I was going to get rid of my numberplate holder-cut down and move the plate, then make a duct there.
BTW, what is the best material to use as a cone filter shield??
Pete

QuoteOriginally posted by petemillis
You have got to get colder air going into the intake. Induction kits without shielding and cold air ducting are the most effective way to increase intake temperatures! There\'s no point in thinking it\'s ok to draw hot air into the induction side and then try and cool it. You may as well get the air going in as cool as possible THEN cool it further.
At the end of the day, you can fabricate a heatshield for peanuts and you can run a piece of ducting from behind the front spoiler up into the shielded area. All in all about half an hours work and costs next to nothing. THEN think about other things to spend money on.

how about putting in a bonnett vent and then shielding the intakes and the vents in a single compartment. Leaving the air to escape straight up when blowing and sucking cold air in when sucking.?

Petemillis---Have you got any pics of this??????????????:wave

Might be worth speaking to Dragon. See below

Cooling System
The more cold air that the engine can take on the better, however some aftermarket intakes can be heavily affected by heat from surrounding areas specifically the water hose beneath the intake. Feel your filters after a drive if they are hot you could benefit significantly from a custom heat shield and two other modifications that Dragon Performance has developed to lower your intake temps. After performing these mods on my own car I have a consistent Water Temperature between 79 and 82 measured on a Power FC Commander. My Intake Temps have also come down so low with the standard intercooler that another RX7 owner would not believe me until I changed the Air temp sensor to prove it was not faulty.

Quote from: Rich CheungMight be worth speaking to Dragon. See below

Cooling System
The more cold air that the engine can take on the better, however some aftermarket intakes can be heavily affected by heat from surrounding areas specifically the water hose beneath the intake. Feel your filters after a drive if they are hot you could benefit significantly from a custom heat shield and two other modifications that Dragon Performance has developed to lower your intake temps. After performing these mods on my own car I have a consistent Water Temperature between 79 and 82 measured on a Power FC Commander. My Intake Temps have also come down so low with the standard intercooler that another RX7 owner would not believe me until I changed the Air temp sensor to prove it was not faulty.

you got this in your engine bay?

if so can you upload some pics. I\'m sure I\'m not the only person who would like to see the shield in place.

Sounds like it might be on the Dragon Performance website.
I\'m gonna take look.
Pete

already chatted to them. They said they haven\'t done one for a while and you need to go down in person. They\'re miles away from me.

Quote from: SpotlampJust a point on WI, I\'m sure you can get them all over the shop, but Geff sells a bleedin huge tank which replaces the stock rear washer bottle.  If you\'ve ever had the cover off in the boot you\'ll see it\'s quite tiny, but the one Geff\'s got is blinkin\' massive and fills the entire space behind the cover, about 2.5 feet wide I reckons.  Â£100 or there abouts.

Yep, u can get em from Mazda - its the UK spec washer bottle.

Or a scrapy for £10.00 :p

Oedipus Rex - Did they give you any indication on price when you spoke to Dragon ?

no I didn;t ask because it soon became clear it wasn\'t feasible due to distance

QuotePetemillis---Have you got any pics of this??????????????

Warthog, no pics on the RX7 I\'m afraid - but I have for my Skyline. Heatshield doesn\'t need to be complicated or sealed - it\'s just to deflect the heat away, and a cool air feed going into it wlll displace the warm air anyway.
Aluminium is pretty east to work with to make a shield. Or there\'s heat resistant plastic sheet about 1.5mm this - this is even easier to work with as you can bend it to shape after heating it where you want to bend it. And it\'s dead easy to cut with a craft knife.

trying to cool air before going in is near impossible with a rex and dont forget as it enters it flows thru that bloody hot turbo so intercooler/charge cooler and water injection are the only way to go..and the ultimate wld have to be cooling mists dual kit which blasts in pre and post intercooler

On no!-This water injection seems to get a fair bit of praise...more money\'s gonna get blown!! :p ....but i keep telling my wife, the amount i\'ve spent on it over the last 6 years, is less than a suitable replacement would cost!..that\'s my excuse anyway :cool
Pete

Quote from: PETE SMITH....but i keep telling my wife, the amount i\'ve spent on it over the last 6 years, is less than a suitable replacement would cost!..

I think our books would probably debate that Pete :D

R.

PS not been around to give me your rims yet :confused: :D

Whats this Pukka Pie Boy, rimming, :spank

Lisa just said " he\'s the only g*y in Portsmouth" in a Welsh accent. :yes

But Warthog,
I\'ve only one rim (it\'s not made of alloy), but i am Welsh :eek: .....
BTW, i believe you\'re the only bloke on this site, whose first name remains marginally elusive...i reckon it\'s.......Harold...? :guinness
Pete

BTW Rich,
Has Geff\'s...,actually Pam\'s, Bambino popped out yet??...mine\'s gonna enter this world in the next 4 weeks :cheers

well guys. Water injection will probably come soon but I\'ve just bought a C West nose for the airflow, an air scoop to fit in the bonnet behind the cones and a couple of vents for the back of the bonnet. Also getting a heat shield made up for the cones.


Budget?


never heard of them.

Quote from: petemillisYou have got to get colder air going into the intake. Induction kits without shielding and cold air ducting are the most effective way to increase intake temperatures! There\'s no point in thinking it\'s ok to draw hot air into the induction side and then try and cool it. You may as well get the air going in as cool as possible THEN cool it further.
At the end of the day, you can fabricate a heatshield for peanuts and you can run a piece of ducting from behind the front spoiler up into the shielded area. All in all about half an hours work and costs next to nothing. THEN think about other things to spend money on.

Going to disagree here a little -  on a N/A car then yes but on a turbo car why whats the point when the air then has to pass through a turbo (or 2)..droping the intake temp by 20c or whatever before going through the turbo is pointless IMO...Please if anyone knows better then reply because im here to learn   :)

gavin...

Quote from: rs125Going to disagree here a little -  on a N/A car then yes but on a turbo car why whats the point when the air then has to pass through a turbo (or 2)..droping the intake temp by 20c or whatever before going through the turbo is pointless IMO...Please if anyone knows better then reply because im here to learn   :)

gavin...

I think the turbos are going to heat up the air by a fairly fixed amount. So the cooler it is before going in, the cooler it will be coming out. If you can then cool it even further, all the better.

Haven\'t some of the newer turbo\'d sports cars have a watercooled turbo/s?
If so, i imagine it would be a task and a half to fabricate.
Pete

The GT42 on my motor has its own radiator plumbed inline where the stock gearbox oil cooler would be. I don\'t know what differance it makes to water temps entering the turbo but certainly can\'t do any harm to keep the temps as low as poss.
Kevin

getting WI fitted tomorrow will let you know how it goes ref intake temps etc.........
Si

I was speaking to Pip a while back about WI , he was telling me he had one brave customer who was injecting the water directly into the turbo , very brave as it would only take one droplet of water not to atomise fully and bye bye turbo

He did however say it worked amazingly


Was also reading a thread on Nopistons today they were saying that WI before the turbo works well , after the intercooler and even in the exhaust , cant quite remember how that one works but I think it was something to do with lowering the EGT and so fooling the ECU or summat

2nd best mod on my car [after the RE lump grin]

Quote from: TintinI was speaking to Pip a while back about WI , he was telling me he had one brave customer who was injecting the water directly into the turbo , very brave as it would only take one droplet of water not to atomise fully and bye bye turbo

He did however say it worked amazingly


Was also reading a thread on Nopistons today they were saying that WI before the turbo works well , after the intercooler and even in the exhaust , cant quite remember how that one works but I think it was something to do with lowering the EGT and so fooling the ECU or summat

did he give you a quote to fit one?

I\'m not sure if he fitted it , by the sounds of it he was still a litle cautious about the idea

Quote from: TintinI\'m not sure if he fitted it , by the sounds of it he was still a litle cautious about the idea

well if Pip is anything its cautious.

well now fitted & first impression is it doesn\'t reduce ambient cruising temps as thats still intercooler related but is quite funny as now when i wana reduce intake temps all i have to do is apply boost & woohoo the little bugger comes down lol
Currently mine is running from screen wash tank which i guess isn\'t ideal, Pip reckoned the cheap methanol based screen wash should actually be better thou, anyone know for sure which screen washes contain what & what best ones wood be or wot best to avoid?
Cheers
Si

You\'ll have to let me have a good look at it ( oohh eerr ) tomorrow , never really seen one fitted and am planning fitting one soon so could do with seeing how its don

Did you fit yours or did you get someone else to do the dirty work ???

How much he charge you for fitting Si?

got WGT to do all the work & erm dunno will have to look at labour charges but as i say may not be conclusive as was servicing in there too.....
Si

Quote from: Oedipus RexI think the turbos are going to heat up the air by a fairly fixed amount. So the cooler it is before going in, the cooler it will be coming out. If you can then cool it even further, all the better.

Maybe (probably) im wrong but i really do fail to see how droping your intake temps by a few degree is going to make sod all diference when the air then has to go through a red hot turbo..

Suppose it depends how well its ducted, could be a quite considerably difference if done right. And all the time your off boost you\'ll have nice cool air running through the turbo cooling it back down again, rather than hot engine bay air.

Do see what your saying though, its never going to make a huge difference, especially under sustained boost, but if you can get a bit of extra cooling you may aswell take it :)

I think there are several ways of looking at this.

Firstly, and probably most importantly, to quote Tesco\'s, "every little helps".  Wether it\'s ducting, WI, intercoolers etc, it all makes a degree of difference.

It\'s also safe to say that the more you do the better.  Running a car with big FMIC, WI, cold air induction, vented bonnet and any other wang-fangled pieces of technology (liquid hydrogen charge cooler anyone?  :D ) is going to give the best results.  But any combination of those items above will reduce intake temps if done properly.

The debate on here has so far been about which is best.  I\'m not aware of any \'scientific\' research into this area, so it\'s going to be based on experience and preference.

Did I just say that crap?

H

This thread started from the question whats the best CHEAP way of reducing air temps , as we have seen its not a case of one answer fits all , it all depends how much you want to lower the temps by and how large your budget is

Obviously cold air intake and heat shield is by far the cheapest - not going to be that effective really but as said every little helps
Next in line we have WI , its gonna cost £380 ish plus fitting - not alot to pay for what you get , can be very effective if implemented the right way
Then you have FMIC and CC and all the variations that go into this - these are gonna cost a bit but will also be very beneficial
Other off the shelf options are intercooler water spray bars and CO2 spray bars - these can be pricey but can be very effective
I think the best option is a combination of the above to suit your needs

My personal weapon of choice would be a combination of CC , WI and a CO2 spray bar on the CC radiator , its gonna cost a bit but intake temps are gonna be quite chilly , WI is gonna be for every day use as water is free , CO2 is gonna be play time

I\'m actually in the design stages of building my own spray bar system with a bit of luck its gonna be around the £100 mark all built and installed , not alot to pay if it works as well as it should

Its not a case of whats right and wrong if everyone did the same we\'d have nothing to discuss , we all have different goals , needs and budgets

Quoteits gonna cost £380 ish plus fitting

QuoteNot always...ive just got a kit from //www.coolingmist.com (Deluxe Single stage performance pacakge), it was on special for $299,with $50 postage and £46 duty costs I paid about £240. I swapped the bundled air temp meter for a host of goodies like brass in-line water filter, angled injectors, etc. So far I can strongly recommend them, ordered on a Sunday, arrived Thursday, great customer support, and very nice looking kit. Once it is fitted I shall post more about it. Oh and its all methanol safe too which will add to the fun ;)

Quote from: TintinIts not a case of whats right and wrong if everyone did the same we\'d have nothing to discuss , we all have different goals , needs and budgets

Well said! :cheers
Pete

oops, i\'ve already said that earlier :D memory of a fish...

Quote from: ScuttleRX

Quoteits gonna cost £380 ish plus fitting

QuoteNot always...ive just got a kit from //www.coolingmist.com (Deluxe Single stage performance pacakge), it was on special for $299,with $50 postage and £46 duty costs I paid about £240. I swapped the bundled air temp meter for a host of goodies like brass in-line water filter, angled injectors, etc. So far I can strongly recommend them, ordered on a Sunday, arrived Thursday, great customer support, and very nice looking kit. Once it is fitted I shall post more about it. Oh and its all methanol safe too which will add to the fun ;)

Sorry should have said for Aquamist 1s which is normally the kit of choice , I have seen them cheaper on ebay and at Turbobits but on average there £380 ish

Yeah figured you meant the aquamist, I meant it more as in there are some cheaper ones about.

I think the aquamist have some really lovely top end kits, with the ability to map according to load/boost/rpm etc and all the other bits they can do. But when your after a simple boost activated system I think there are kits about which are better value for money and just as good. Suppose there is always the possiblity of making them into a mappable system as well, using something like a megasquirt, maybe even the aquamist mf2...I presume you can put them into any system after all the components of each system are going to be basically the same things.

BTW not trying to slate aquamist products here, they have a deservedly good reputation, its just since buying a house I have become a bit of a bargain hunter (otherwise known as a tight git :) )

We all like to save a pound or two , I was looking into building my own WI kit , theres not much to it but I was speaking to Pip about it and he advised against as finding a good quailty realiable pump could be a problem , as he said if the pumps not strong enough to allow the water to atomise properly then it could cause problems

What kind of pump is with your cooling mist kit ?? I\'ve seen other makes of kit on flea bay that use a very similar pump to one that can be bought of the shelf cheaply , one of them said its the sytem that Dragon ( i think ) use on their drag car , think it was made by power developments

If it is possible to buy a decent pump and Pip was just being over cautious I may still have a go at making my own

All very interesting.
Si - Did Pip supply and fit or just fit ? & if the latter where did you get the kit from ? Any pics of it installed ?

Cheapest way I\'ve found to reduce intake temps is to free wheel down hill  ;)

Rich

or move to the arctic  :rollin  :rollin  :rollin  :rollin

Quote from: Rich CheungCheapest way I\'ve found to reduce intake temps is to free wheel down hill  ;)

Rich

yeah, I\'m quite fond of that method myself actually.


Quite glad I started this thread its raised some interesting points.

supplied & fitted although it wasnt brand new im sure he can get new ones too best bet is to speak to the man himself. Will try & get some pix soon gota get me some red piping first thou the blue just dont do it for me :D
 lol
Si

QuoteWhat kind of pump is with your cooling mist kit ??

100psi one on this page (http://www.coolingmist.com/pagedisplay.aspx?feature_key=Water_Pumps) , would have gone for the 150psi but it doesnt work with the clogged nozzle detectors

Si, How much did the WI kit set you back?

Could be tempted to go give pip a visit as Im due new spark plugs too ;)

ScuttleRX

Let me know how that WI kit of yours is performing , might get one of their pumps if they\'re up to the job and build my own kit

Cheers

Paul

Will do matey, planning on fitting it next week so hopefully be up and running by next weekend

mine is into the body dhop tomorrow for its c west nose and scoot bonnet.

I\'ll report on the results

well I got the bonnet on but not the nose yet. Body shop put me off for a week so I\'ve got an unpainted bonnet, gaffer taped shut  :rollin



Drilled out the bonnet on the induction side.


It\'s made around 10 degrees difference to ambient temps.


Amazing.