After looking at how much agg it is to make my TII inlet elbow a decent size, i looked into the common mod of fitting an FD Upper inlet manifold to the FC TII lower.
I know this has been discussed before and i think Grinder raised the point, the primary runners on the TII are quite a bit bigger than the FD ones so why fit it?
I have seen posts of people using adapter plates but it took me 35 mins with a Die grinder to make the two fit and using a TII gasget. I just enlarged the holes in the FD UIM at a taper to line up the ports and stretch the bolt holes very slightly. It seems to fit ok, even misses the fuel rail.........
It was too easy so i am waiting for something not to fit, any ideas??
Anyway, at least i can fit a greddy elbow now and get some flow into my engine!! anyone got a greddy elbow for sale???
How have you got round the fd\'s cut out between the Primarys?
I found the stock gaskets blow too easy when there is only a few mm.
I take it you have not fitted it yet, you will need a lower oil filler tube of an Fd to clear the inlet, Blanking plates and a throttle cable ;)
You have seen the post on Second gen section, i put a few of the reasons it a good mod on the end.
Chris
While you\'ve got your die grinder out you can loose the secondry throttles and then bridge between the to secondry ports in the fd upper and of course flow the TB.
If you need block off plates contact this guy he\'s in the US but is fast and sell quality gear.
Seth at //www.2751engineering.com/2751parts.html
Chris
oil filler is sorted,
blanking plates for what?, generally make em myself
will the throttle cable not reach?, whats best, FD cable or make one up?
Your right about not much meat left, what gasget do you use then?
regards
Tony
Ok, you use the stock Throttle cable of the fd (t2 throttles are on the other side of the TB)
I have spent abit of time on the cut out between the primarys, i tig\'d the gap up and the holes in the lower manifold skimed them both with a miller and drilled and retaped the holes. All lines up now:D I would always use the bigger Gasket, i don\'t like how the US guys use the stock fd gasket (primarys go from a small Fd uper to a masive t2 lower)
Blanking plates, unless you plan on useing all the Emition c**p you need the T2 lower set and the Fd upper (oviously) it is about 4-5 plates.
You\'ll also need to blank the Fd vac assist for the brakes and some of the vac pipes that come of the upper. Don\'t block of the 1/4" one next to the TB and the two right next to the lower inlet mateing surface.
Hope this helps....
Chris
Hi,
Thanks for that, i have blanked all my lower inlet things off already, what is there in the FD upper that needs blanking apart from vacume pipes,
Why cant i blank off the 1/4 pipe? where does it need to go? is it the oil breather with the one way valve?.
When you say the cut out between the primaries?, do you mean the finger like slot in the face that meets the LIM between the primary runners?, I used chemical metal but didnt break out of the ally so it just there to give the gasget some support.
Did you do any work to the FC LIM?
Can i just disconnet the actuator on the inner butterflies or does this not do the job, whats the best thing to do and the benfits instead of just leaving them?
Sorry for all the questions.
"Why cant i blank off the 1/4 pipe? where does it need to go? is it the oil breather with the one way valve?."
Well you need that, it is the vacume pipe for the Oil injectors.
"When you say the cut out between the primaries?, do you mean the finger like slot in the face that meets the LIM between the primary runners?"
Yep.
"Did you do any work to the FC LIM?"
Yes, Mine is properly port matched, i put a bead of weld round the runner (Lower to uper face) and i filled in the stud holes with weld i then matched it all to the Fd uper and redrilled the Stud holes so i did\'nt need to mess with the Fd blot holes (mainly becouse it was easer for me but i also noticed there is a bolt hole that is very close to the edge too), then i had the lot skimed flat.
Ok course i have a Big ported motor so i matched the engine to Manifold too.;)
"Can i just disconnet the actuator on the inner butterflies or does this not do the job, whats the best thing to do and the benfits instead of just leaving them?"
Ok, the best way remove the TB then rip out the Secondry throttles, Actuator and all the emision c**p. You are left with three holes in the ft of the Uper inlet, fill the two holes left by the Butterfly rod with liquid metal, once it has all gone off look closly at the top two holes in the upper, you will notice they merge into one 2-3" in. This is the bit i removed, basicly thewall between the two secondry runners make sure you leave a nice wall thicknes for the primary runner (botom one) so the Primary and secondry stay seprate (helps low end if they done leak into one another
You could also flow the TB if you are feeling confident with a die grinder, dont go mad though you just want to clean it up and knife edge it. There is a few placesa it is a bit thin.
"Sorry for all the questions."
No Problem mate. I was in your position a few years ago. If done right its well worth the agro.
What sort of spec is your car?
Chris
Chris,
Are you coming down for the show this weekend?
John
Missed one,
"what is there in the FD upper that needs blanking apart from vacume pipes"
Basicly remove all the Emisions C**p and you will see the secondry butterfly hole (recomend filling with Liquid metal) there is another right next to it that needs a plate over and the last is on the underside of the Uper. I filled all the vac pipes with Liquid metal (apart from the 1/4" one and the two next to the lower manifold) dont forget you only need one vac assist for the brakes.
Sorry if thats a bit vauge but i am not sure what the names are so i\'m sure you can find them.
You may have one more problem learking round the corner. i know its and easy job but you need to rewire the TPS as the Fd one is diffrent.
Chris
Looks like i\'m going to miss another year, My motor is still running in and needs mapping. Runs like a pile of S**t at the mo.
I may grab a lift down, we\'ll see. I bet people are starting to wounder if i have a T2 :rolleyes: Anyway it gives you all a chance ;)
Chris
Thanks for that chris,
I will have a look at removing the butterflys, I take it the only thing i need aroung the throttle body area is the TPS, i can junk the rest. (using microtec so wiring not a problem, oil inj also gone).
Mine will eventually be a home built street ported 13b TII engine, (no REW for me) stock seals, rotors etc, big turbo, not sure yet which one or how big. Extra large \'reverse\' V mount. Electric PAS. 3" down pipe splitting into two 2" out the back. 850cc prims and 1600 secs . (fitted today and only one little leak)Bosch 040 pump . Microtech if and when it arrives :mad: It is basically the same spec as my FD which had about 440 RWHP at 1 bar. So i am hoping that there is no reason i shouldnt get that again as i will have a bigger turbo this time and the ports are basically the same maybe slightly bigger this time. Although FC\'s never seem to get the same power as FD\'s. What about yours?
SO, back to my original question, why do we do it if the primaries are so much smaller??:confused: They must be 15 % smaller on the FD and the secondaries are the same so no gain there?, i know the throttle body is obviously better, but you could always graft thhe FD TB onto the FC UIM.
would like it to look this at the end though:)
That was Alf\'s car when it was on a Extended port!!!! Not even 1/3 of what he was running at the end :(
Why have you removed the OMP? There is a Mod for that too you know;)
My Spec seems to be getting changed and messed about alot at the moment.
I don\'t know where to start, I have a T2 with a fair size extended port(with 500miles on it) it has Fd oil reg Bafled etc etc, Baby 60-1,Microtech LTX8S,Inovative Wideband,Profect B2,4x1000cc\'s,Aero Fuel reg,2xSkyline pumps(soon to go dont like having the risk of one packing up)OS Twin plate Clutch and OS Flywheel,Fd Upper,OMP mod,Braded OMP and Oil cooler lines,Alloy rad and Ic in V-Mount(soon to be a Charge cooler),EWP,No emitions or Ps etc and the most stupid loud 3" exhaust you\'ve ever heard.
Cusco comp2\'s (which i have 3" ground to sill?) then just stuff like Polly bushings,Toe elim bushings,camber bar,sway bars,Uprated Diff/Engine/gearbox mounts,Braided lines and Hawk pads with sloted disks.
And thats my Vert, I have a Coupe which if it ever gets finished should be more fun;)
Chris
QuoteOriginally posted by antnicuk
SO, back to my original question, why do we do it if the primaries are so much smaller??:confused: They must be 15 % smaller on the FD and the secondaries are the same so no gain there?, i know the throttle body is obviously better, but you could always graft thhe FD TB onto the FC UIM.
Its the Upper its self thats cool no Plenum, so people like me with Overlap cars can shut off the secondrys when crusing and low rpm with the added bonus of a decent idle.
The Tb is of course bigger, 2x45 and 1x50 on the t2 and 2x50 1x45 on the Fd.
The Runner lenth on the T2 belive it or not is uneven (not all the same lenths) and compaire how direct the Fd manifold is to the T2 one (like a roller coaster:p)
The best bit, the one i love so much is when you fit a FMIC you dont have to look at the Ugly as sin manifold with bolt holes all over it.
It has absolutly nothing to do with the Fd port runners being smaller becouse the upper isn\'t, if you open the first inch or so up on the primarys you\'ll see it starts off quite large. the big Runners on the primarys are somthing the T2 owners have to live with. It would be nice to have smaller runners to keep the air speed up in the primarys to help low end but if your doing all this to your car then your going to want more flow? so when you rebuild and port your motor get some nice flowing ports in there and it should help in the FD v\'s FC war. :)
Plus it gives you somthing to practice you porting skills on!!!
Chris;)
Chris
Fantastic info on this topic m8... :yes
I was lost reading this thread initally with you both, but spent a few hours today with Ant on his car and it makes sense now....
It\'s a pretty good Mod, even aesthetically pleasing as well... :p
Its quite a good mod. I was going to get the Feed kit but to be honist if you are prepaired to mess about a bit you don\'t need it.
There is a OMP mod as well so it will run with the LTX8, thats easy as well just a bit of messing about getting it correctly set.
Chris
Omp mod.:)
I have to admit i\'ve not mastered this one.
Basicly take the OMP, The motor part of the pump (round black bit) is held on by 3 screws.Pull the motor off & you will see how the thing works.It travels around 1/2" from fully closed to fully open.I usually stack some washers in there so it is stuck at around 1/3 open.You can go to about 1/2 but it will blow some smoke & you usually will have to bring it back to around 1/3 to stop the smoke.
This will give the engine plenty of oil so you will have no reliability problems at all, and you won\'t need to keep the std EMS to run the OMP (no wiring needed).
This is one i picked up recently from Jon at RX Engineering (Cheers mate) if you see this.
Chris
Does this OMP mod give you enough oil at high rpm. ?, the other option is the series 4 front cover with the mechanical OMP set up.
More money and effort:(
I have only recently done the OMP mod myself but the guy who told me about it does this alot.
Jon is MR Microtech, he had alot to do with the development and is one of there Biggest Outlets in Austraila.
Chris
QuoteOriginally posted by antnicuk
the other option is the series 4 front cover with the mechanical OMP set up.
More money and effort:(
Then your in the same boat as the Electric one? (you cant control it)
I\'m still running my new engine in but in a few weeks i\'ll check the flow rate of the OMP and compaire it to the stocker at WOT.
Chris
it has a rod from the throttle linkage to a little lever that increases the oils as you accelerate so you shouldnt need to control it.
it has a rod from the throttle linkage to a little lever that increases the oils as you accelerate so you shouldnt need to control it.
Have you run any times in yours yet?,
also, whats an extended port? is it a streetport with a longer tail, hence the overlap?
Ok, I used to have a S4 omp with a 2 stroke mod. As you say you have to change the cover which involves Sump off etc, if you are not rebuilding your engine at the sme time as Fitting a Microtech its not realy an option.
My car has never been on the strip on track, i have never had the right Wheel/Suspension set up to do it Justice.
Extended port is the proper name for a Street port, The Street port was Tag\'d by Tuners becouse its best for the "Street" Bridge becouse it needs a Bridge for the Corner seal to run on etc.
I am progresivly getting more dareing with every rebuild, my extended port started off quite small and is now what i would call big (not masive but a nice size). BTW it went a bit bigger after the US forum told me it was still small:rolleyes:
Chris
I think the whole nation wants to see your car in the flesh mate.
Oh plkease bring it out to play?
rgds
Brian
QuoteOriginally posted by Grizzly
That was Alf\'s car when it was on a Extended port!!!! Not even 1/3 of what he was running at the end :(
Why have you removed the OMP? There is a Mod for that too you know;)
My Spec seems to be getting changed and messed about alot at the moment.
I don\'t know where to start, I have a T2 with a fair size extended port(with 500miles on it) it has Fd oil reg Bafled etc etc, Baby 60-1,Microtech LTX8S,Inovative Wideband,Profect B2,4x1000cc\'s,Aero Fuel reg,2xSkyline pumps(soon to go dont like having the risk of one packing up)OS Twin plate Clutch and OS Flywheel,Fd Upper,OMP mod,Braded OMP and Oil cooler lines,Alloy rad and Ic in V-Mount(soon to be a Charge cooler),EWP,No emitions or Ps etc and the most stupid loud 3" exhaust you\'ve ever heard.
Cusco comp2\'s (which i have 3" ground to sill?) then just stuff like Polly bushings,Toe elim bushings,camber bar,sway bars,Uprated Diff/Engine/gearbox mounts,Braided lines and Hawk pads with sloted disks.
And thats my Vert, I have a Coupe which if it ever gets finished should be more fun;)
Chris
I know, i must be the only one that is elusive, its not alot to look at the moment though. needs a roof and a nice paint job.
Anyway i\'m not coming to play with you, I heard you got a Kia and a Big port yourself:eek: LOL
Nar i keep saying i\'ll come playing but i\'ll have to see Pip first, (Not to hot at setting it up as you can proberly tel by the new engine).
Chris
QuoteOriginally posted by antnicuk
it has a rod from the throttle linkage to a little lever that increases the oils as you accelerate so you shouldnt need to control it.
Problem is the Fd never had a Mechanical OMP so the Throttle has no space for it (unless you loose the Cruse control or somthing like that).
Chris
P.s. I need to read before i post, sorry if it don\'t make sence some times.