hello all,,im looking for some advice really--i need to change my brake pads,but at the same time im going to also change the discs,,,,really and trully wat i want to do is,get upgrade the pads and discs!! i quite fancy grooved discs,,wat size can i go up to??
has any one got any fitted on there 2nd gen rex?
wat sorta price im i lookin at?
where from??
fitting techniques?
cheers guys
I am not to clued up on Disks but i\'ve tried most fast road/Track pads and can recomend Hawks. Not stupid price ither.
Hi Mate
i am in the process of trying to get some fd discs and cailpers on at the moment. The fd calipers fit straight on but the fd discs are bigger and have slightly different bores than fc. I have had to get the hubs machined a fraction to accept the discs, the car goes in next week to have the brakes fitted but i am forseeing that i will have to get a small bracket fabricated to mount the calipers cuase of the increase in diameter on the discs. I will let you know.
Cross-drilling rotors is not a good idea due to the fact that you are removing metal. By removing metal, you decrease heat retention by the rotors. If the rotors become saturated by the extreme heat, the heat looks for other avenues to escape - typically into the brake pads and eventually to the brake fluid. In extreme cases, the rotor will crack due to too much heat! Drilled holes tend to crack radially. Cross-drilled rotors ultimately end up being a purely cosmetic mod.
Rotors were first drilled because early brake pad materials gave off gasses when heated to racing temperatures, a process known as "gassing out." These gasses then formed a thin layer between the brake pad face and the rotor, acting as a lubricant and effectively lowering the coefficient of friction.
The holes were implemented to give the gasses somewhere to go. It was an effective solution, but today\'s friction materials do not exhibit the same gassing out phenomenon as the early pads. For this reason, the holes have carried over more as a design feature than a performance feature.
Contrary to popular belief, they don\'t lower temperatures. (In fact, by removing weight from the rotor, they can actually cause temperatures to increase a little.) These holes create stress risers that allow the rotor to crack sooner, and make a mess of brake pads - sort of like a cheesegrater rubbing against them at every stop.
Ah good thread starting,
So my non expert opinion.
Lots of guys on here run pads that are not really up to track days but they still use them, I thought that when a cold pad gets over heated it tends to have a glaze which goes hard, then a drilled or grooved rotor would yes wear it quicker but take that hard surface off and give better braking because its on a freash surface?
Interesting that Endless race rotors are only grooved but confusing there endurance rotors are grooved & drilled, although I guess fro racing you would simply replace as money would be no object?
Chris Wilson used to be a resident guru, does he still frequent these pages?
A good write up Trex, as your electric radiator thread. Thanks. It would seem strange though as Gary mentions and from my viewings, that just about any track/fast/performance car and bike for that matter has drilled and grooved. I suppose maybe they can replace at will, but it surely must help to some degree or what would be the point in wasting money and labour process of drilling.
Yes, Grooved or Cutting thin slots across the face of the rotor can actually help to clean the face of the brake pads over time, helping to reduce the glazing often found during high-speed use which can lower the coefficient of friction.
While there may still be a small concern over creating stress risers in the face of the rotor, if the slots are shallow and cut properly, the trade-off appears to be worth the risk.
If you need to worry about brake pad degassing, then go with slotted rotors. Grooved type disc is a better way of preventing decreased brake performace due to brake pad degassing.
Brake pad degassing is the condition when inferior quality brake pad compounds vaporize due to extreme heat. This gas that is emitted by the brake pad tends to float the brake pad over the rotor face, causing reduced brake friction!
With regard to drilling / slotting again, most racing applications use massive brakes(disc) to improve braking area efficency. But then the rotating mass and overall weight is increased, so drilling holes are the main reason for mass reduction!
With drilled discs you increase the possibility of the disc cracking. I\'m running slotted discs at the moment (brembos) on the EGi with greestuff pads. This all seems very good for road use and the braking performance is improved, but by how much I cant really say.
Grooved/slotted discs keep the pad surface smooth and remove glazing as it happens. Pad wear is increased but bedding in times of pads is reduced.
I\'d reccommed checking that your standard brake system is upto scratch first, ie all the calipers are working correctly and are not seized, the master cylinder and booster are in good condition etc. If your intending to give the brakes a hammering then braided lines from the arches to the calipers would be a good idea too.
im no expert on bracking systems but i can change brakes easily and know what good brakes are!!! here is my experience with cross drilled and grooved disks,
when i had my first car (a pug) i used to get brake fade all the time with standard disks! It seemed to take forever to stop sometimes, then after nearly being in ana accident, i decided to get some black diamond combis on there, i read various reviews and all of that jazz, and they had a nice finish on them too (which got rusty in the end)
black diamond combi\'s are grooved and drilled. The performance from these brakes was phenomenal! I could lock the wheels at 70 mph if i wanted to very easily. i had to adopt a new driving style i.e I had to learn to feather the brakes, and could brake really late but i knew if there was any trouble i would be able to stop!
the disks are still on the car (my mate bought it off me) and they have worn very well, they never cracked and it isnt from not trying either! (he more of a nuttah than me!) these disks are about four years old.
THerefore i would recommend drilled and groved, it makes a huge difference as you will see! and as far as cracking goes, i think thats a little rare factor, cos race cars have drilled disks! some mercs and big german motors come with them standard too, so if cracking was common place you know you wouldnt see it as standard would you?
- Nas
Nas
Don\'t go there dude.............. :bandit
What I have posted there is not about putting \'BiG Brakes\' on a pug/nova whatever.
It\'s scientific facts................. Facts that I can post pages and pages about, not from my experiences but from R&D (Research and Development) from Big manufactures and Professionals.
I guess when you changed the Disc you also put new pads and fluid or even bled the fluid etc etc among other things! ;)
As above,
Bear in mind also that a racing car has specially treated discs, road discs have to operate under an entirely different set of conditions. This often results in hardend patches appearing on the discs which, if the area is weakend (ie holes in it) can lead to fatigue if you have to stop quickly from 60mph...
I have just fitted some direct replacement black diamond combi discs and pads to my TII, i havent had them long but over stock ones they are much better, and good price to, less than 200 quid for the lot from Shy Autos and took 3 days to get. They also do rears.
I dont how good they will be on a track day but i wont be using them on a track!
If you want good track day stuff then you tend to lose nice feel when on the road. Its a compramise, like wanting a big turbo that has no lag, very hard to find!!
As for fitting FD discs, in my opinion its not worth it for the 6mm each side that you get, and trying to space a caliper out by such a small amount is difficult because where you want the new bolts to be will be overlapping the bolts holding the bracket on, unless you move the caliper round a bit.
Its a lot of work for 6mm! i dont think anyone would notice the difference in breaking compared to good stock ones.
I have just fitted a set of 360mm monsters to an FD which is not much more work, at a cost of 360 quid (thanks re worx), took the stock discs, machined the meat off it leaving a bell, drill holes in it and mount the new disc onto your home made bell, and using stock calipers which are easier to space out because you have 30 - 40 mm to play with, (no overlap with existing holes).
QuoteOriginally posted by antnicuk
AsI have just fitted a set of 360mm monsters to an FD which is not much more work, at a cost of 360 quid (thanks re worx), took the stock discs, machined the meat off it leaving a bell, drill holes in it and mount the new disc onto your home made bell, and using stock calipers which are easier to space out because you have 30 - 40 mm to play with, (no overlap with existing holes).
I have seen these myself.... :eek: :eek: :eek:
Thats an amazing project Tony, the whole car . :god
Agreed about fitting FD disc, it\'s not worth the hassel. Mainly because as I understand it, you need to machine(grind) down a bit either on the Hub or the Disc itself for them to fit the FC Hubs.
(correct me if this is wrong)....
There is no way I will Grind anything on the brakes(remove material) for no gain in anything really... if there will be a gain, it will be hughly offset by what it took to do.
On the other hand I know the FD Calipers will fit bang on an FC as I have done this myself.
Not as a performance mod, but the FC calipers have a tendency to leak, corrode etc. 2 things, these bloody things are almost 18-20 odd years old now and the materials and design used on the FD ones are improved....
I even have a fully rebuilt pair of FD calipers standby if needed.
There are 2 things you should never feck about or take any chances with on your car!
1. Brakes
2. Steering............
\'Power is nothing without control\' :burnout
dont take the chance on letting your g/f drive it either!
So are the FD calipers a direct fit on the FC then? What amount of hassel are they to change? (Considering mine hasnt turned a wheel in 4 years the calipers will be knackeered anyway...)
hi guys..
yeh i drove a pug as my first car so what? i loved it it handled really good, fair play in its later years it started rattling all the time and falling to bits! the aftermarket disks i changed wasnt bigger than the stock items they were a direct replacement! i failed to mention that (granted).
brakes are brakes, even if they are on a pug or a nova! so dont go there yourself!
Like i said i dont know that much in the context of materials and methods used to produce brakes.
I was letting you know the HUGE difference i experienced over using the stock rubbish when i upgraded.
I didnt change the fluid, obviously i changed the pads when i did the disks!
as far as cracking and doom and gloom goes, i havent had any experience of that or know of anyone who has. maybe you lot just bought disks that were not made properly!!!
if you dont want to talk about race applications then fair enough, but on street setups i think they work better than normal solid disks (of the same size)
Nas, Trex, ant, me,
Lets keep this friendly shall we? Its very hard to judge another persons intentions etc simply by reading text, I dont want anyone to get ****ed off by reading or contributing to what is clearly a very useful thread. We\'re not having a go about the use of the discs etc on hatchbacks, we arepointing out the difference between the braking effort required between an 800kg 205 and a 1300kg rx!
BTW got any pics of your car yet Nas? :cool
:wave
Apoligizes if the typing came over heavy.... :cheers
I appreciate all that is said here, it would seem Trex is very well versed on braking and for that matter any other technical post he has replied too, but, without sounding rude, rather than saying FD brakes wont make that much difference without actually trying it is a contradiction to the whole performance/modifying experience. Hey if no one ever tried anything, we would not have the experience to comment. I am prepared to go to the small lengths i have gone to to see if it works and is possible, if its not, well i have learned something, if it does work i have also learned something and then i am in a position to offer comment on experience and pass the first hand experience on. As said, i appreciate your views and knowledge but i think it a little narrow sighted to purely say it wont offer much better performance without actually trying it. I hope this does not come across wrong as i agree with Brett\'s previous post, just wanted my thoughts to be shared.
does anyone have the details on fitting the 3rd gen calipers to an FC?
I dont knock anybody for trying things but you have to look at the basics, 6 mm more disc is not a lot of breaking area for the work your doing but good luck anyway.
Here is a piccy of some discs that will make a difference, these wheels are 19" and there is only just enough clearence to get a calliper in!
The middle bit is the cut down TII disc which makes the bell, hope they work, this thing is geared to do over 200 mph!
another
Jetpilot,
I haven\'t said \'don\'t\' try stuff dude.
Not said FD brakes are a no no, read my post again dude..... it says the \'DISC\' are a bad idea... well basically it won\'t fit anyway :p
(just in case this was fired my way)
Brett, to answer you m8, \'Yes\' the calipers from an FD are a straight fit on an FC...
again read my post as I said this already...... :D :D :D
been trying to post shots of the 2 (FD & FC) calipers together along with a rebuild-break down of a caliper I resealed recently, but using a laptop and it\'s photo editing software is sh*ite to say the least!
rgds
Excellent, I did read what you said in the other post but it pays to check before I start hunting down FD calipers.
Speaking of which, Ant, what happened to the calipers from your tripple FD? If they are in good nick I\'ll make you an offer?
:bandit
Those brakes look truly awesome, nice work.
sorry lads, i didnt mean to sound aggressive! i just thought that you was taking the **** outta me!
I didnt have a 205, i had a 405 TD which was running 30PSI and used to purge huge colouds of smoke out of the rear when i gave her some boot, FMIC, full leathers and 18\'s etc! not bad for a first motor! :rolleyes: :D
Im really impressed with that "using the old disk" as a bell housing, for months i been wondering about gettin a big disk conversion but when no one stocks it for your car what you gonna do! now i have an answer, you lot are well useful and clever !!
I have pics of the turbo II but my god the cars in a right state, i know you lot have minters, so i been holding off posting pics!
It is a restoration project so i know its gonna be hard work.I got a whole list of problems lads i have managed to fill three sides of A4 paper of jobs to do, i am also starting to think i have bitten off more than i can chew.
im also having loads of problems with gettin parts. I dont wanna pay huge amounts of money for bits! cos i will have to skimp on other stuff! i was gonna get a body shop to do all the prep work filling in dents etc. but already looks like im having to do that myself! this is my first project and jeez what a ball ache, at least it drives which only frustrates more cos i see it on the drive and wanna take it out for a burn!!
Back to topic --
the standard brakes on the turbo II are not too bad actually i was impressed actually when i drove it! surely someone here as upgraded with standard sized disks with cross drilled and grooved? (someone back me up!!)
:bandit
here are some pics then -- (http://i4.ebayimg.com/03/i/03/b5/de/e7_1_b.JPG)
(http://i4.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/b5/de/ea_1_b.JPG)
Mine is not a minter (look at this (http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13751) thread)
I think most peoples cars in this section are works in progress. As with all old cars its a constant rear guard action against age and wear.
But FC\'s rule :cool
I guess at the end of the day its all relative to your pocket, If you can afford to replace often, money no object then you could spend out on Endless or Performance friction, buy best pads, although these top makes dont seem to produce much in the way of flat dics. If your on more of a budget then Black Diamond do fit the bill in both rotor and pad, but being cheap you will propably want to use there gropved or drilled or even there combi rotors, again they dont make flat. You could use Flat mazda replacements but with a cheap pad they will probably gas up so go for grooved. I and Phil G who do occassional track days have both had cracked flat mazda rotors but never cracked drilled or grooved rotors, but then we dont do it every day as a race would.
For my money and budget on a standardish RX would not hesitate to use hawk pads and black diamond rotors, chaep and a good combination.
http://www.rotarytarts.com/acatalog/Handling.html
why do people fit Fd calipers on TII\'s ? from what I have seen they are slightly lighter but essentially the same calipers (four pots and the pistons are all the same size)
Because they are newer and apparantly age better than the FC ones. I think. :)
a pair of recon calipers from a TII should be cheaper than those for an FD though.
QuoteOriginally posted by MikeLMR
why do people fit Fd calipers on TII\'s ? from what I have seen they are slightly lighter but essentially the same calipers (four pots and the pistons are all the same size)
Again for those that do not read threads carefully....
{quote from Trex} On the other hand I know the FD Calipers will fit bang on an FC as I have done this myself.
Not as a performance mod, but the FC calipers have a tendency to leak, corrode etc. 2 things, these bloody things are almost 18-20 odd years old now and the materials and design used on the FD ones are improved.... {end quote}
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
QuoteSpeaking of which, Ant, what happened to the calipers from your tripple FD? If they are in good nick I\'ll make you an offer?
Sorry Brett, they are now on my TII,
TNbast, as mentioned above and by Gary, Black diamond do stock replacement discs and pads that are uprated which i have on my TII, which is not mint, but it is solid and cheap, which were my main points when i was looking as this one is just a toy whereas my FD was my only car and stood me a lot of money.
The turbo II brakes are very good if they are all working, but with the age of these cars now, all of my TII\'s calipers have had problems, i dont the think the FD caliper gives particularly better braking they are just newer and not seized.
To clarify, the fd tripple rotor project is my cousins car that we both work on, he is not a computer expert so is not on here, but give him a bit of metal and he is a genius. My car is in the background of some of the photos.