Mazda Rotary Club

So out of interest can someone tell me the actual, theoretical or potential pros & cons of a charge cooler over an aftermarket intercooler?
Cheers
Si

my understanding, and I am by no means an expert..... is:

with a charge cooler you should get less lag as the unit can be placed nearer the engine/turbo and avoid long pipework from the front of the vehicle to the turbo. The charge cooler can then have it\'s own radiator placed in a cooler part of the bay.

I suspect the downside oof a charge cooler is you need a reasnoable sized unit to be effective and that equates to £££

hey none of it\'s cheap thou & i do lurve the idea of the V mount, just wondering wot other benefits or downside the charge thingy may have. First things first it dont work from air flow does it? That being case is it better for short hard blasts &/or sideways action when airflow maybe limited or strange but does it get hotter after longer abuse?
Dunno at all so not saying that\'s case as i generally (now get ready for a shock folks) know jack sheet (http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/drowned/dork.gif) was just sum strange thoughts going on in my head so wood appreciate some knowledge being added to it?
Cheers
Si

Geoff used a charge cooler on his 10sec drag car, so Ideal if u waiting in line on the strip.

charge cooler still works on the principle of cool air running thru a rad and then being used to cool the intake temp..for road use chrge cooler is not neccly better as u could be happily blasting the nuts off ur car and if the charge cooler water pump fails and u dont notice then intake temps will rocket whereas the front mount gets free air all the time..charge cooling works for some because they are just used for the 1/4 mile etc but most cars stick with front mounts for cooling..if u have front mount u can then add water injection as safety net to cool intake..thats my plan

so if water pump fails temps go up, we have the first disadvantage, anymore comments on this & anything else.
Is there a stupid how it works for idiots guide sumwhere also?
Si

ChargeCoolers are used in Rally cars a lot as well in hotter climates as the outside air for normal intercooler wont be as cold, there are pros and cons to both systems. I like the idea of the chargecooler as there is less pressure drop with one (due to less piping) hence less lag, but the main advantage of a normal intercooler is it failsafe attribute. Hmmm decisions decisions

The charge cooler works one the principal that water is far more effective at removing heat than air, while this is indeed true, it also retains heat better than air, which is why the charge cooler needs its own radiator, pump etc and why intake temps go through the roof if you have a water pump failure.

Mark\'s theory: If you had a charge cooler of a reasonable depth, a big charge cooler rad and some very serious cooling fans, CO2 sprays etc then you could run a very nice setup for low intake temps! Which would result in loads of boost without the associated lag of an FMIC, but in reality is it really likely to make that much difference and where would you put all the extra ancillaries (I reckon a sealed unit in the boot space but that\'s me!)

Having run a FMIC for a year I found I  was getting high water temps [fmic sitting in front of rad, hot days = high water temps, the run back from Le Mans I was having to back off seeing temps of 110c] Decided to go charge cooler last August, to date I have found consistanly lower water temps [85-95] but charge temps are now 5 - 10c higher.
My conclusion is FMIC are great but they restrict the cooling of the rad [not good for the engine] unless you look at V mount and vented bonnet [loads of dosh]
I think the charge cooler is a better option, a lot less work and plumbing, the water pump is reliable and I would have thought you would have as much chance putting a hole in a FM as the pump failing.
To address the higher charge temps I will be fitting water injection.
Hope this helps:D

when you say higher what kinda figures we looking at as it\'s probably the weakness in my system to a degree so dont doubt that either any & all wood improve it dramatically but all good & interesting stuff so keep hitting me with figures.......
Cheers
Si

rad cooling can be alleviated by running no thermostat/water wetter or purple ice.chargecooler still requires a rad to be placed infront of ur rad otherwise there is nothing to cool the water.it is a trade off even v mounts are a trade off.nearly all other conventional tuners run with front mounts.every impreza searching for power goes front mount as intercooler sitting in engine bay is a nighmare for heat soak.there is no one sysytem that will give everything..water temps should only be an issue for a track car as majority of road cars wont be running sustained boost for any length of time

Removing the stat wont help you mate. It will make the engine run hotter and take longer to warm up. Also it will make the temp harder to sustain on colder days/nights.
If you remove the air con rad you could put a charge colling rad in its place. Not really changing the orginal design much at all.
why not go for a stock mount intercooler. researched this in great depth and you only need to duct between 1/6 to 1/4 of the intercooler surface area.
do some more research bud.
:)
scott

removing stat will drop temp as flow will be increased thru the rad even after reaching operating temp the flow is slowed thru the stat simply because of obstruction removal..stats are put in cars so the occupant gets benefit of heater earlier as flow is thru the engine picking up heat when temp is reached stat releases water to get cooled thru the rad to maintain this temp..removal will still lead to an even temp but cooler it wont however stop car overheating if there is a prob

QuoteOriginally posted by scooby_si
when you say higher what kinda figures we looking at as it\'s probably the weakness in my system to a degree so dont doubt that either any & all wood improve it dramatically but all good & interesting stuff so keep hitting me with figures.......
Cheers
Si

Sustained boost I see 40 - 45c normal driving 30-35c drive like a grannie 25-30c with the FM it ranged from 20 - 35.
The engine was designed with a thermostat and I am sure Mazda\'s engineers spent quite a bit R&D see what was best. I would not run my engine without it\'s stat.
The surface area on my charge cooler rad is 75% smaller than the FM I had fitted so, I saw a great improvement in water temps.........more or less the same as stock.
The other advantage with the charge cooler is you can keep the rad in its stock position thereby alieviating most of the air locks you get when positioning the rad near to upright.
I am hoping when I have my water injection plumbed in my intake temps will be atmospere + 5c or better.
For track time / drags with a charge cooler you can also fit a secondary tank and load this with ice to pass the cooling water through, I am told this is very effective though I have not tried it.

Hey John any pictures of your Charge Cooler set up, it would be most interesting to see? Probably would make my decisions easier whether to go FMIC or charge cooler

I\'ll see what I can do in the next day or so, car is being stored whilst we moved should be collecting it today or tomorrow, now that I have cleared my new garage, if you have seen Geffs set up it is quite similar allthough mine sits infront of the alternator [ Geff has relocated to where the aircon pump should be]

I have water injection on my car and and SPA temp sensor in the the intake elbow. SPA sensor reacts much faster than Mazda one and gives an instant readout of tempratutre change. I would see intake temps of upto 80C in the summer on full boost run, this drops to 35- 40C with water injection. So you would see much more than 5C gain.

Kev

QuoteOriginally posted by FD3UK
I have water injection on my car and and SPA temp sensor in the the intake elbow. SPA sensor reacts much faster than Mazda one and gives an instant readout of tempratutre change. I would see intake temps of upto 80C in the summer on full boost run, this drops to 35- 40C with water injection. So you would see much more than 5C gain.

Kev

Think you might have missunderstood, I have been advised fitting water injection to my setup would result in inlet temps of atmosphere + 5c ie: if it is 20c air temp I can expect inlet to be 25c

Yeah I should have had a look when I had a chance a Geoffs chargecoller setup, hey maybe 20B_boy could post some pics up of it.

QuoteOriginally posted by John Yorke
Having run a FMIC for a year I found I  was getting high water temps [fmic sitting in front of rad, hot days = high water temps, the run back from Le Mans I was having to back off seeing temps of 110c] Decided to go charge cooler last August, to date I have found consistanly lower water temps [85-95] but charge temps are now 5 - 10c higher.
My conclusion is FMIC are great but they restrict the cooling of the rad [not good for the engine] unless you look at V mount and vented bonnet [loads of dosh]
I think the charge cooler is a better option, a lot less work and plumbing, the water pump is reliable and I would have thought you would have as much chance putting a hole in a FM as the pump failing.
To address the higher charge temps I will be fitting water injection.
Hope this helps:D

Hi John,

You had the aircon rad in that setup didnt you? I now have the exact same setup as John but have removed the aircon and added a vented bonnet, and removed the undertray (still testing whether this is better or worse) but my water temps are 85-94. Inlet temps vary depending on ambient temps but are pretty good. Obviously there are a couple different factors but you can have good engine temps with the FMIC, especially if your willing to remove a few creature comforts.. i never used the air con anyway...

Cheers

Donato

Hi Donato
Glad to see you are progressing well with your project, I\'m sure the vented bonnet will help no end, but like you I didnt have air-con [hey its for wimps anyway:) ] and still found high temps, but only on sustained high boost I was running 1bar non-sequentialy same as you, the run back from Rouan? to Calais WAS sustained high boost running 7k+rpm a great deal of the way.
I dont think the removal of the under tray is a good idear this will create more air flow problems than it will solve dissapating the heat.

John,

When i say experimenting, i havent had the undertray on since the car went back together, and my temps are good, im planning on fitting it soon to see what happens with the temps, i have also still to remove the aircon pump, which will help with the airflow around the engine too.. and i still have to run air ducts but im waiting on the sleek headlights to arrive so i can remove the pop up motors to accomodate the ducts. Then i should have a good idea of the temps.

I take it you are keeping the yellow beast now? Last i heard you were selling..?

Cheers

Donato

QuoteOriginally posted by Donato
John,

When i say experimenting, i havent had the undertray on since the car went back together, and my temps are good, im planning on fitting it soon to see what happens with the temps, i have also still to remove the aircon pump, which will help with the airflow around the engine too.. and i still have to run air ducts but im waiting on the sleek headlights to arrive so i can remove the pop up motors to accomodate the ducts. Then i should have a good idea of the temps.

I take it you are keeping the yellow beast now? Last i heard you were selling..?

Cheers

Donato

Yep she\'s staying:cool
The biggest problem with the set up you /I had, is that the twins generate soooo much heat.
As I understand it the tray is there to aid air flow and is an intergral part of the cars airodynamics - directing air under and through the engine bay.
The sleek light kit is a great idea as an aid to getting cold air to the induction, I have just about sorted my one out:D
Taking the aircon pump out is also a good move:)  
A] it reduces wieght
B] gives you the chance to re-position the alternator and therefore lower the center of gravity [and it makes the engine bay much tidier

QuoteOriginally posted by John Yorke
Yep she\'s staying:cool
The biggest problem with the set up you /I had, is that the twins generate soooo much heat.
As I understand it the tray is there to aid air flow and is an intergral part of the cars airodynamics - directing air under and through the engine bay.
The sleek light kit is a great idea as an aid to getting cold air to the induction, I have just about sorted my one out:D
Taking the aircon pump out is also a good move:)  
A] it reduces wieght
B] gives you the chance to re-position the alternator and therefore lower the center of gravity [and it makes the engine bay much tidier

Glad to hear it!

Please dont get me started on the single turbo route! I have only been nonsequential for a matter of months and im already thinking of going single, just cant afford it at the moment! Im getting a respray in jan so i have to keep my pennies for that.

Hopefully the headlights will be here soon..

I hadnt thought of repositioning the alternator, might look into that as the clearances between the alternator pulley and my intercooler pipe is minimal to say the least! There are scratch marks where it has actually dug into the pipe a little!

The undertray was laziness on my part, to be honest since i got it back on the road i have been to busy driving it! Such a difference with the non seq set up, its so much easier to drive, i was at knockhill a few weeks ago, that was lots of fun!! :D

Glad to hear you are keeping the rex, i will dig out that CD you like for rotorstock! ;)

Cheers

Donato

Be very carefull about removing the thermostat in any engine, the cooling system is designed to work with that restriction in place and I seem to recall on the earlier rotary engines that removing the stat will lead to water not flowing correctly around the engine and causing it to overheat.

as for thermostats being fitted to allow the heater to work quicker :rollin  its to allow the engine to heat up properly and not spend forever running up to temperature. Engines are designed to work in a certain temperature range with the clearances etc. running and engine too cold is going to do it damage.

in my opinion if you need to remove the stat to stop your car from overheating you have a problem and need to look at increasing the cooling capacity of the rad etc. rathe than masking the problem by removing the \'stat

Totaly agree Mike:)  same goes for the undertray as well.

Donato.................... dont start me on southpark again, I only have to hear it now and I get a raging head ache, I am sure you could reduce a bit more weight and remove your sound system:D

If you thing the non-sequential is fun wait till you go to a propper single:bandit

I understand moving the alternator is a fairly straight forward job.............will let you know in due course.

:rollin  Dont worry, it wasnt even my cd! It was my car but not my cd! :D

However! The car will be arriving at rotorstock with its new far louder ice install which i bought her for xmas! :D

I learnt my lesson last year, i will not be mixing stella and white wine again, and if i do im sure someone will rugby tackle me if i go anywhere near my car to put some music on! :rollin

I will go single but i think it will take a year or two of saving...

Cheers

Donato

In theory what you say about the stat is correct but in practice it doesnt work that way. i ran my car like it all summer and it is unstable and requires constant monitoing of water temp. the stat will be going back in asap. somebody in the know told me that with the stat removed there is a way for some coolant to bypass the rad.

so with a charge cooler will running a uprated rad not be a cunning plan for even better water temps, wasnt\' sure what the issue was with upright ones in relation to the airlock keep it in standard position type comments.....?
Si

thermostat is there for engine to run in correct range and yes it doesnt do to have too cool a running engine.but the reason it is closed to begin with is to enable water temp to reach operating temp for creature comfort as ur water maybe hot but it is oil temp that will give best indication of whether engine has reached operating temp..removing stat will let engine run cooler but will lead to decreased heater effcncy and will only drop it a few degrees..water will still flow thru the rad in exactly the same way but it is because it will be cooled maybe too much that cool running hot spots can occur in cylinder cars(not sure on a rotary)some people have removed stats and have electric water pumps as well to aid cooling..all this will be over the top for a road car.track use is completely different as the abuse is that much greater with sustained boost..maybe one of the tuners could chip in with an expert view

Hi all,

John, I disagree with you about Vmounts being too expensive. It is all horses for courses and luckily everyone has their own opinion and experiances.

Figures(STD Mazda sensor)
Cruising: 25dgs ambient - app 28dgs intake.
Load @ .94bar: 25dgs ambient - app 34dgs intake.

I will be making a Vmount for an FD next year, and will let you know what we get... it will be at RS05 too.

John

QuoteOriginally posted by scooby_si
so with a charge cooler will running a uprated rad not be a cunning plan for even better water temps, wasnt\' sure what the issue was with upright ones in relation to the airlock keep it in standard position type comments.....?
Si

Very much so, an uprated rad will aid cooling, but most of the after market rads are designed to go in the stock position and therefore the inlet and outlet pipes are angled which when putting the rad upright / near upright cause the air locks ect. To go down that route I would suggest a custom made jobbie similar to Clives.

John - I hear what you are saying, but buying a charge cooler for £700ish + some plumbing is relatively cheap compared to a v mount kit including bonnet ect. Look forward to seeing your set up @ RS11:cool

I\'m with the Yella Fella on this one. I have purchased a PWR Charge Cooler Kit and will be fitting it after xmas. I have fitted a PWR uprated radiator, goes in the stock poition with a very small tweek. I have also got a new thermo that opens at a lower temp as i want the engine to get up to optional temp then let the cooler water flow.As i see it this is all about balancing the mods to increase bhp with the temp gains due to the heat produed by more power. I know that sounds obvious, but some people always look for an easy answer to problems. I feel that this is the way forward in keeping my temps down. I have looked at what Geff has done and taken his advice for what i want from my FD.
      The mods i have done so far are intake, exhaust, pulley kit, 1300cc secondary injectors, upgraded fuel pump, new filter, apexi pfc and commander, larger rad etc, things to be done after xmas, charge cooler, oil catchment tank, boost controler, cold plugs, uprated ht leads, then it can go of geff\'s r/r and be mapped in one go. Everthing i have done is with the view that i will go single at some point and i want everything to be right. I have already fitted a new street ported engine, but even when i have it running as much power as the t/t\'s will permit i\'m not just going to change over to a single without first having the engine stripped down and checked first.
       My view is if you think about your mods and don\'t just rush in then the end result must be better. Just my view.
       I want to have a go at Rotorstock and not blow my engine. The only way I\'m going to do that with a street car is by getting things right.
        When things are complete i will post pic\'s.

sounds like a good way to do it matey, no wot am i saying that is stupid bad plan i insist you give me those mods so i can save you from yerself (http://smilies.jeeptalk.org/otn/wink/thumb.gif) lol
Si

Smile :cool

on a bit of a tangent then trying to get a way round x, y & Z potential issues i also have the intake temp on my power FC commander is it possible to get some kind of gauge, or such like to have a red light, beep wotever to go off when this hits 60 degrees or sumin?
Si

as an example i can do no end of water, oil temp things into my HUD defi stuff but can i just get a water temp thing & plug it into air thingy or wire into wherever standard reading is from, round plenum sumwhere?
Er i dunno just wondereding how i can get a warning set up for dodgy intake temps....
Si

QuoteOriginally posted by scooby_si
as an example i can do no end of water, oil temp things into my HUD defi stuff but can i just get a water temp thing & plug it into air thingy or wire into wherever standard reading is from, round plenum sumwhere?
Er i dunno just wondereding how i can get a warning set up for dodgy intake temps....
Si

I would have thought if you have a water temp gauge you leave the commander on inlet temp so that you have both at a glance. Not to sure where the sender for the inlet temp is, I understand it is under the plenham, if you can find out what kind of sender it is you should be able to match it with a gauge, then split the supply so that you have a feed to the ecu and to yer new gauge.

yeah i havent rigged anything else to the defis yet but once i get the control unit 2 i can have wotever i want reading on my main HUD so as long as it can be wired into the control unit i can get the temp on the gauge & set it so it set off the red warnign light etc if it went over wotever temp i believe, anyway thats an idea at the minute i have water & intake temps on the control unit which is all good but you gota look at it to know what it\'s doing was just trying to get a plan so it tells me when/if it goes over a certain figure in realtion to the water pump failing on CC potential.
Si (theories & gob shyte lol)

Failing that si why not install a fail safe device in the pipwork like a flow switch or a termocouple wired back to a buzzer or boost controller which could either swtich a device on or off. or both if required.
scott

all sounds interesting all i need now is santa to bring me a sack of cash........lol
Si

Oh contrare rodders!!!no need my son. just need a relay and the switchin device. ie a termocouple ( could be a rad switch ) and wire it up. bish bash bosch........
scott:D

sorry to barge in folks..... just back to the charge coolers etc.....

Lot of folk were sayingthe main problem is the water pump failing.....

Couldn\'t u just set up a warning light/buzzer etc to come on if the pump fails??

Then it\'d be a case of stopping the car unhooking the inlet from the charge cooler so the car drives like a naturally aspirated car - no turbos then drive to the nearest garage(if necessary) take the spare water pump and clips that you have in the boot..... plumb it in (2 minute job) top up the water tthen off you go again?

seems quite simple.

can you also totally kill the boost ie the turbos/need for charge cooler etc with a boost controller like a profec II only im looking at getting one anyhow to stop going over 1 bar in high gears & if it has advantages like being used with this potentially & also turning off turbo use in bad weather than i\'m defo sold.....(http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/holiday/noel.gif)
Si

Thats a good idea Si, I\'m sold on it too ..... definitely going to hook up a warning though and keep a spare wter pump in the car - just in case!

Lots of scare mongering going on here:D  The water pump supplied with the power r kit [only one I am qualified to talk about] is a top notch bit of kit I have had mine for the last 4 -5 months [=2.5k miles] and no problems, even with the pump turned off it will only climb to about 60c [normal driving] so, if you do get a failure it is easy enough to limp home.

Same here John, have often cruised about with the pump off on Geffs car...no a big deal...

QuoteOriginally posted by John Yorke
Lots of scare mongering going on here:D  The water pump supplied with the power r kit [only one I am qualified to talk about] is a top notch bit of kit I have had mine for the last 4 -5 months [=2.5k miles] and no problems, even with the pump turned off it will only climb to about 60c [normal driving] so, if you do get a failure it is easy enough to limp home.

John\'s right, it\'s not even remotely as bad as if the OMP pump goes. Now that\'s electric and if that stops working you\'re screwed, but gladly it doesn\'t often go wrong:D My opinion is that charge coolers of the correct capacity and pre-rad size are very good for the strip, but can heatsoak if used for prolonged track/boost use, however the heatsoak may not be as bad as some suggest;)

Paul

Si,
(merry christmas)

You cant run less boost than the actuator is set to.  You can run more by bleeding air from the actuator or wastegate but you cant make it open earlier unless you have a weeker spring.

Its not a good idea to disconnect the inlet pipe and run it as a n/a engine as the turbo will have no back pressure on the compressor (engine) side and can over spool.

Geff has prooved the charge cooler kit works,  i seem to remeber Si, that you had some issues getting air from that sexy new front spoiler of yours to the intercooler,  if thats the case then go for the chargecooler,  the rad that comes with the kit is very small if i remember, about 10 or 12 inches square and less than an inch thick.

A couple of options are to use a bigger rad for the water in the charge cooler...  something else to consider is putting something with or instead of water in the charge cooler,  not sure whats available.

As mentioned above i wouldnt take the thermostat out unless you are using the Davis Craig electric water pump with the controller (or similar). I used this on my car,  it worked fine but i wouldnt use it again,  to much grief to fit and too much worrying about wether the pump was working.  Demon Tweeks state a 2000 HOUR life span.  I put an led in the dash to indicate if the pump failed but still more hassle than the benifits.  The main benefit was being able to turn the ignition on, so the water pumped round the engine while the engine was off, turn the fans on and cool the water really quickly while you were waiting in traffic or on the start line!
I tried mine with and without the controller or thermostat, i found that for 8 months of the year, the car wouldnt get upto temperature unless you sat in traffic, on the motorway in november the temp was 50 degrees, that means that your ecu thinks your on choke and adds fuel/increases idle accordingly. An engine is more efficient at highjer temps and as Mike says, designed to run at certain temps,  (the mazda thermo opens at 83 degrees), if you have car that is used for racing where you can set the ecu to run at cooler temps its different.  I like my cars to have a heater!! cant demist the window other wise.


Just out of interest, how much are these charge cooler kits going for?

re: Davies Craig pumps... If you average 30 miles per hour, then 2000 hours is 60,000 miles. Not exactly a replace at every service part.

Charge coolers are well proven on a number of OEM applications from Lotus Esprit through sierra cosworth. You have to look at the sort of use you are putting the car to before you decide what you want. With a charge cooler you are relying on the thermal intertia in the water to give you a smaller radiator for the intercooler. Perfect for a quick blast up to 150 on an empty stretch of dual carriage way and then behave for a few miles. Less good for a 4 hour endurance race.

For bonneville you generally have 10 gallons of ice water in the back somewhere and hope it won\'t boil before the end of the run.

You have to pick the compromise that best suits the sort of driving you do and the depth of you wallet. In the case of the escort cossie, the charge cooler acted as a charge warmer in 95% of normal driving circumstances.

But here is a Christmas thought. Methanol, injected at a stoichometric ratio cools the intake charge by 150°C. In fact it cools so well that you generally can\'t vapourise all of it by the end of the compression stroke.

bill lost me a bit but are u saying water injection using water/methanol mix is better for cooling the inlet temp

He certainly is :)

Have you ever seen drag racers who run (pure) methanol spraying something into their inlets before a run... that\'s de-icer :D


merry xmas everyone

I forgot to mention... methanol\'s really corrosive isn\'t it?

Si
unless u gonna drag race full time u might as well stay with a intercooler. get a wi system or a nx ntercoler syetem in addition.
my thoughts any ways
scot

QuoteOriginally posted by sdminus
Si
unless u gonna drag race full time u might as well stay with a intercooler. get a wi system or a nx ntercoler syetem in addition.
my thoughts any ways
scot

And I thought I had been drinking heavily today!