Mazda Rotary Club

General => General Technical => Anything Engine/Performance/Tuning related => Topic started by: R32 Nik on October 22, 2004, 01:55:29 PM

Title: Drag FC?
Post by: R32 Nik on October 22, 2004, 01:55:29 PM
Right.. you\'ve probably been asked this before but here goes anyway.

We are looking at turning Sarah\'s FC into a drag car type effort..

What is the best way to get decent power from an egi?

Is it best to try and find a 20B to put in it? if so what sort of money are they (if you can find one).

Any other ideas???

Looking for inspiration guys as she is talking about scrapping it if it is not gunna be possible to drag it.

Please help.

Nik
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: grinder on October 22, 2004, 02:02:00 PM
scrapping it - WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY !

whats up with it ???
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: R32 Nik on October 22, 2004, 02:31:50 PM
It had soooo much welding done for the MOT last year that she thinks it wont go through this year......
Plus we need to free up some space for other things and We were thinking of dragging the Rex and getting rid of the supra, but if the Rex is not gunna be draggable then we may have to get rid, and she won\'t sell it, she\'d rather scrap it as she couldn\'t bear the thought of someone else owning HER car lol.
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: grinder on October 22, 2004, 02:34:18 PM
based on you scrapping it

can i claim in some very bizzare way that i sold you a charcoal filter and there for you could scrap it to me :)
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: R32 Nik on October 22, 2004, 02:38:13 PM
Will be that in mind mate lol:) but would rather drag it than scrap it. Just need to find out how to get decent times before we dicide.
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: grinder on October 22, 2004, 02:43:38 PM
if you are gonna use if purely for drag and NOT road use

remove all the interior ( leave seat in )

remove everything thing else that isnt bolted don

the yanks have a theory for every 100lbs you gain are 0.1 quicker on the strip ( dont quote figures )

get a lighter bonnet - or cut holes in yours

full decat and induction kit

then it depends on how much ££££££££££ you have

get the engine rebuilt with a streetport / bridge port

run NOS in it

the list goes one

it depends if you want a drag car or a road/drag car - but if its drag only - then you need ways to get it to the strip and im not sure if they need to be MOT\'d or not ???? ( i doubt it to be honest )

for more power - speak to brett - he has an EGI at 200bhp - but thats running a bridge port

good luck - it may be a very good project you are starting
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: MikeLMR on October 22, 2004, 05:52:18 PM
yup as above weight loss is cheap and more power is expensive.

As for the engine, ditch the standard exhaust and fit a nice manifold and exhaust system. Then if your after serious power start modifying the engine internals.
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: R32 Nik on October 22, 2004, 07:16:17 PM
Thanks.. If I can figure out who Brett is I\'ll ask him lol

cheers guys.
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: sadgoth on October 22, 2004, 07:33:59 PM
Nooooo! Don\'t scrap it!

20b would be VERY Expensive to do what with engine cost, install ECU etc!

you would get a good performer with the following mods (in order of cost and serious performance potential IMHO

1) strip out cockpit
2) better breathing Induction/exhaust
3) lightweight bonnet (maybe carbon or FRP)
4) uprated ECU (I\'d go Microtech on an FC)
5) porting

once you have the ECU and the engine ported you can start playing with the rev limits! (Tim\'s Gen 1 ran over 11000rpm recently! :eek: )

The above would still be costly but it can be done in stages
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: 88GT-R on October 22, 2004, 07:43:17 PM
Hi Nik,
All depending on the cash flow, but through experiance the most potential 13B engine would either the S4 13bt or the 13b-RE. The S4 engine will fit right in with no mods other than the wireing loom, but if you are tuning it then you won`t need much for a standalone ems.
The 13b-RE has the engine mounts near enough in the same position, and will need a little bit of jiggling to fit. This is a very potent engine when set up right with a big turbo and a half bridge/full bridge port.
Obviously all the chassis changes will need to be made, in order to keep everything nice and tight.

John
88 GT-R
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: R32 Nik on October 22, 2004, 09:25:31 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by sadgoth
Nooooo! Don\'t scrap it!

20b would be VERY Expensive to do what with engine cost, install ECU etc!

you would get a good performer with the following mods (in order of cost and serious performance potential IMHO

1) strip out cockpit
2) better breathing Induction/exhaust
3) lightweight bonnet (maybe carbon or FRP)
4) uprated ECU (I\'d go Microtech on an FC)
5) porting

once you have the ECU and the engine ported you can start playing with the rev limits! (Tim\'s Gen 1 ran over 11000rpm recently! :eek: )

The above would still be costly but it can be done in stages
with it not having a turbo would it need a free flow exhaust or what ?  
Sorry not too sure with N/A motors.

what sort of money does 1/2 or full bridge porting cost?

thanks for the response so far guys, she is looking less likely to scrap it now (depending on costs of course lol)
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: sadgoth on October 22, 2004, 10:11:22 PM
because porting involes an engine strip and rebuild you are looking at similar prices to a rebuild, obviously you can reduce costs if you remove the engine yourself and take it to an engine builder. I had mine done by Tim at RX motors, not sure what he\'d charge if you removed the engine yourself but you are prob looking at sub £2k even if he does the removal and install.

cheers
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: MikeLMR on October 22, 2004, 10:15:47 PM
on an NA engine having the largest diameter possible exhaust is not what you want, to get maximum effect you want to "tune" the lengths and diamteters of the exhaust to the engine so that it works with the engine to pull the exhaust gasses out of the exhaust port.  This also true of the inlet but with positive pressure waves.
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: R32 Nik on October 22, 2004, 11:14:35 PM
I thought thats what I had read somewhere.

Does any1 know if anywhere does exhausts for a n/a FC or is it a custom build job??

thanks guys

Nik
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: MikeLMR on October 22, 2004, 11:16:01 PM
it\'ll be a case of try the usual suspects I think ;)
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: 88GT-R on October 23, 2004, 05:11:22 PM
Correct Tuning bits for the NA are few and far between, and are quite pricey due to there rarerity. The most cost efective way to more power is a transplant to the forced induced engines.

John
88 GT-R
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: travellinbob on October 24, 2004, 01:39:45 PM
Why not turbo charge the existing engine? if you arnt planning on running crazy boost then it will work. Mind you the more attention to detail on the set up the longer any engine will last.
 There must be someone with a spare turboII turbo and exhaust manifold lying around. My guess would be less than £100.?
 The exhaust doesnt have to be some fancy name brand. 3 inch pipe from your local friendly exhasut shop would do. And if there are budget restraints then you could even forget injection and go blow through or even draw through weber.
 Your possibilities are endless. Could be a very cool project. Definately drag it :bandit
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: grinder on October 25, 2004, 09:15:59 AM
if you look up POWERFLOW - they do exhausts for the rx7 - and they will custom make it if you ask nicely

sounds like you have a right old project on your hands here - your gonna need deep pockets :)
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: Sean on October 25, 2004, 11:16:45 AM
Mongoose make ss systems to whatever spec you ask for. But they are in congleton or macclesfield somewhere (up north):rolleyes:
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: travellinbob on October 26, 2004, 07:29:19 PM
me again, dont really agree with the \'deep pockets\' quote.
 It doesnt really sound like you are after 10second passes down the Pod! If you go to the type 2 thread section on this forum there is a guy who has done some very smart, and not too difficult modifications to his type 2 that you could also do. How much of the work will you be up for diong yourself? If you pull the engine out yourself and basically all the long hour, labour intensive jobs it could save you heaps. There must be a few kilos in sound seadening on the floor, so that is a few free horsepower there.
 There is sooooo much more to drag racing other than outright horsepower. If you get the set up right, big rpm launches with no fear of things snapping etc, you will be amazed at how much faster you can become.
 Ditch all weight that isnt of the utmost importance. Plexiglass is so much lighter than glass so all your windows can go for a start.
( please tell me there wont be a need for an mot?) You can take out the dash, heater system. Heaps of things.
 
I love drag racing and have learnt a stupid amount since first going to watch in west sydney 10 years ago.
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: Brett on October 28, 2004, 08:37:43 AM
Racing beat do a decent system for the Egi, its expensive and its not stainless either... (I\'ve had bits of mine remade in SS304 when the sections rusted)...once you\'ve got a full system on there you can dump the air pump too!
 You will want to get your injectors refurbed or buy new ones too.
 If you can gaurrantee a decent airflow then go for an induction kit, if not stick with the stock air box and put a high flow panel filter in its place.
 Remove the hydrostatic fan and install an electric one.  If your egi is an early one you wont have power steering, if it\'s a later one you could remove the pump and install the steering rack form an earlier Egi. (A bit extreme I know, but the less bits you engines driving the better)
 You\'ll want a clutch that works as well, mine keeps giving up the ghost.  I\'m looking into a TII gbox and diff as well, I\'ve been told that th Egi ones can be a bit fragile!
 If your not planning on day to day use at all then ditch the rear screen and make a perspex/lexan jobby to go on in its place. (The rear screens about 45kg I think, maybe more!)
(Making a perspex rear screen for drag days is one of my pet projects for the spring)
 Then simply advance to the line, hold at around 5k and let it go....

:3gears-rh
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: R32 Nik on October 28, 2004, 10:03:48 PM
Hi Brett,
Would a TII clutch drop straight into an EGI or not?

How about just taking the hatch off on the day and cover with plastic sheet :rollin

Thanks for the info m8

Looks like the project is a goer.

Nik
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: Brett on October 29, 2004, 08:14:37 AM
Right now thats the million dollar question! I have a spare Egi engine thats going to be rebuilt in the spring, I will get hold of a TII clutch and gearbox around then and see if it all mates up.  I\'ve asked around a few specialists but most have been pretty vague, get the impression its not been done often or at all.  (I want a TII box so I dont break the egi one)

 My plan is to go nuts with the next engine, biggest ports I can make without the corner seals vanishing :D  and a full custom stainless exhaust system (going for further tuning of the exhuast in the vain hope I can get rid of the reverb at 3000rpm) and if my inusrance company gives the go ahead, nitrous oxide as well.  

 How many miles has your engine done?  If its still young or had a recent rebuild dont bother with the porting, get the decent exhaust on there (you will be amazed how much hp this frees up on the wankels) and dont touch the engine until something goes bang, crunch or grind.  Then you can rip it apart, get it ported etc and fit a new clutch and gbox if nessecary.
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: R32 Nik on October 29, 2004, 03:20:30 PM
Thanks for the info Brett. I think we will leave the porting etc for now then as the car has only done about 25k since a new engine was put in it.

Zorst etc seems the way to go for now, then porting etc when needed.

Cheers

Nik
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: travellinbob on October 29, 2004, 08:02:18 PM
hey cool, project drag fc is a go ahead! Nice one. I will be following the progress keenly.
 Not too sure about the plastic sheet as a replacement for the rear hatch? Aerodynamics might be a tad scuppered. Hows about plexiglass( or lexan) and de-skinning the hatch itself.
  Are you going to still have or want an mot?
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: R32 Nik on October 30, 2004, 07:12:39 AM
QuoteOriginally posted by travellinbob
hey cool, project drag fc is a go ahead! Nice one. I will be following the progress keenly.
 Not too sure about the plastic sheet as a replacement for the rear hatch? Aerodynamics might be a tad scuppered. Hows about plexiglass( or lexan) and de-skinning the hatch itself.
  Are you going to still have or want an mot?
Yes it will need an MOT as Sarah will need to drive it to and from the strip. I think you could be right about the aerodynamics with the plastic sheeting :D .
I may look into a plexiglass hatch that we can put on when we get there tho.
Title: Drag FC?
Post by: Ricco_04 on October 31, 2004, 01:39:34 PM
Ahhh always wanted to do a project FC, will be difinately following this - how about a renesis engine from the breakers when they get a few - would that even fit? Wouldnt a poly-carb rear screen and side windows pass an mot then?
Title: Rear screen
Post by: Brett on November 01, 2004, 08:09:06 AM
I think the glass can be removed from the frame, leaving a fitment groove.  Using the old glass as a mould heat and form the lexan/poly around it to get the right shape and then fix it to the metal frame by any means available...