Author Topic: Starting a Flooded RX (mainly FD)  (Read 17427 times)

Offline Glenn Butcher

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Starting a Flooded RX (mainly FD)
« on: March 17, 2003, 08:55:22 PM »
A rotary engine can become flooded.  This can be caused by a number of things:

1. Engine is low on compression
2. If you move your car around without running it for long (i.e. running it for less than a few mins. each time).
3. Old/fouled spark plugs
4. Spark plugs that are too cold (see this related thread: Spark Plugs)
5. Some other problem i.e. electrical/fuel etc. (not covered in this thread)


Usual symptoms are: Car was running fine, but suddenly won\'t start, or after some time of sitting around it won\'t start.  Plugs will be completely wet when you take them out.


De-flooding steps :

1. Remove the fuel pump relay (UPDATE OCT-2003: REMOVE THE MAIN EGI FUSE)...
2. Remove the spark plugs (ensuring the spark plugs leads are away from the engine)...
3. Turn the engine over with the plugs out and the accelerator peddle wide open for 10 to 15 seconds...
4. Wait 10-15 minutes and repeat step 3.  Or keep repeating this step until no more fuel sprays out of the spark plug holes...
5. Remove the plugs again and squirt some engine oil into each rotor housing through the spark plug holes (this will line the rotor housing with a thin film of oil, helping the apex seal - seal against the rotor housing, hence restoring compression)...
6. Put the clean plugs/(best to have a new set if you can) back in but do not wire up the spark plug wires...
7. Either manually turn the engine over by hand (from the pulleys) or rotate the motor with the accelerator peddle wide open for 10 to 15 seconds...
8. Re-install the fuel pump relay and spark plug wires.

Try to start it.

If it starts, keep the revs up - don\'t let it die.  It will probably run quite rough for a while and after 30 - 60 seconds it should run on its own.

Be patient with it, you may have to repeat some of the steps a few times.


If you are continuously having problems with flooding, then it is most probably because the Compression is low - it could be engine re-build time.  Have the compression checked by a proper rotary workshop - they will use a proper Rotary Compression
If you have any other experiences/comments, please feel free to add to this thread.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2005, 11:17:09 AM by clive »
Thanks,

Offline Fish

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Starting a Flooded car
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2003, 09:06:54 PM »
Something else that might be helpful to have about, is a set of jump leads. As this can drain the battery quickly.

The extra power from another engine that is running, gives that extra kick required at times to start a rotary.

Dan

Offline Glenn Butcher

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Starting a Flooded car
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2003, 09:09:22 PM »
Thanks Dan!  yes - for sure.

Also, if you have a manual - try and jump/clutch start it in 2nd gear.  This will turn the engine over much faster than the starter motor can.
Thanks,

Offline MikeLMR

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Starting a Flooded car
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2003, 09:12:32 PM »
another tip

it always happens when you least want it to !

e.g

pull into quick fit for a wheel balance, switch off car and go inside for a quote

come out to drive car into fitting bay as quick fit refuse to drive it (wimps!)

start car and back out of parking space then engine stalls while car is blocking in another customer

car floods and won\'t restart for 5  mins much to annoyance of the other customer and the amusement of the quick fit guys

car restarts rev to 3 thousand and drop the clutch = sideways and flames into fitting bay and quick fit guys no longer laughing but giving you a strange look and backing away

:rollin

Offline Paul-Tll

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Starting a Flooded car
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2003, 09:30:30 AM »
OR not for the faint hearted a tow start, did this with mine before
the rebuild smoke,bang and back to life! (nearly took the back of the tow car out-not to mention the front of mine!
Paul..
The- \'RED KNIGHT\'-sport
All porting work done in Japan by MAZDA
92 R1

Offline Glenn Butcher

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Starting a Flooded car
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2003, 09:58:50 AM »
Hi Paul!

Yes - just find a hill! :)    or a level road and get a couple people to push, make sure you use 2nd gear.
Thanks,

Offline Brett

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Starting a Flooded car
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2003, 10:01:28 AM »
Just add my views and experience,  a lot of restart problems are caused by a combination of wear (poor compression) on the housings and old, leaking injectors which continue to leak fuel into the housings for a while after switching off the engine. To combat this, I used to remove the EGi fuse from its case, turn the engine over a few times to force the fuel out of the housings, (doing it this way ensures only the fuel injectors are off, the oiling system remains on) then restart the engine.  
 You may also find that tipping a pint of two stroke oil in to your fuel tank once in awhile can help too.
At the end of the day, it\'s meant to be fun - not a political movement! :burnout
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Offline bnaellis

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Starting a Flooded car
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2003, 10:51:43 AM »
Question for you gents, does starting the car not letting it warm up and shutting of then restarting again later and not having any problems means you have a good engine or that one was just lucky ?? Also Glen you stated in description below !!

2. If you move your car around without running it for long (i.e. running it for less than a few mins. each time).

Does this mean in general, or only from cold startup ??


rgds

Brian

Offline Glenn Butcher

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Starting a Flooded car
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2003, 10:56:50 AM »
Hi Brian,

It would be more that you have a good engine, it is very difficult to flood a new / rebuilt engine.

I always try to avoid starting up a rotor and running it for a short time, specially with an old engine.

Because the other potential problem is carbon lock, again not common in a new / rebuilt engine.  See this thread here for some info on "Carbon Lock"
Thanks,

Offline bnaellis

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Starting a Flooded car
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2003, 11:03:54 AM »
Cheers Glen,
Did you get my pm last week ??

rgds

Brian

Offline Glenn Butcher

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Starting a Flooded car
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2003, 11:14:28 AM »
Hi mate!

Just replied.
Thanks,

Phranque

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Starting a Flooded car
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2003, 11:55:45 AM »
It\'s threads like this that REALLY help folk like me who know very little about engines etc. Thanks all.
A question:
Brett mentions that "You may also find that tipping a pint of two stroke oil in to your fuel tank once in a while can help too."
I\'ve seen ths hinted at here and there on various sites but what is the concensus? At present my oil pressure ( or to be accurate, my car engine\'s oil pressure, seems pretty good at over 4kg/cm² which is just over half way on the meter.
To oil or not to oil - that is the question - and how frequently is \'once in a while\', please ???

Frank

Wayne

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Starting a Flooded car
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2003, 12:26:43 PM »
Hi Glenn,

I was wondering if you feel that a car that is just about to have it\'s engine rebuilt can always be started in your "how to" on starting flooded cars. Mine is supposed to be in for its rebuild now but on Saturday i could not get the car started to get it to Portsmouth. I may have flooded it in the process, so i removed the plugs, dried them and left them out overnight to help the excess fuel in the engine evaporate. Problem is she still will not start and it\'s looking lilke i may have to pay extortianate amounts to get her trucked from London to Portsmouth.

Do you think she would definatley start under a tow? or if i do the manual engine turn over that she might kick? thats the only part of the procedure i did not do ,but how important is it? and how do i do it?

Offline Glenn Butcher

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Starting a Flooded car
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2003, 12:29:59 PM »
Hi Frank!

Putting the two-stroke oil in the fuel tank is quite a common thing with a rotary (hence why you have read that on other sites etc.).  This either replaces the function of the Metering Oil Pump (MOP) or assists it.

The rotary engine injects oil into the rotor chamber to help with lubrication of the apex seals, and also to help compression.  Have a read through this thread: http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=31&referrerid=1

Essentially it does not hurt to add the oil (don\'t add too much though), if your engine is old and you just want to give it a helping hand - add some pre-mix.

Usually a ratio of 100:1 (500mls of oil to 50 litres of fuel) is ok.

Best to use a non-synthetic 2 stroke oil, available from service stations (it is the same as the 2 stroke oil for 2 stroke motor bikes) and you can buy in 500ml containers.

On a racing engine, the MOP is not used - pre-mix oil is always added into the fuel tank.

Downsides:
1. It may smoke a little (not much really).

Upsides:
1. Helps the apex seals - prolonging the life of the engine.
2. It will smell great!


Chris Wilson (on this Forum) recommends adding the pre-mix for doing track days (also adding an octane booster).  I would also recommend this - it just helps things along.
Thanks,

Offline Glenn Butcher

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Starting a Flooded car
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2003, 12:39:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wayne
Hi Glenn,

I was wondering...

...Do you think she would definatley start under a tow? or if i do the manual engine turn over that she might kick? thats the only part of the procedure i did not do ,but how important is it? and how do i do it?



I think you would have a much better chance trying to start it, by a clutch start.  Do you live in an area where you could try this?  I don\'t like doing the tow start - but it may be your only option? depending on where you live.

When last was it running?

Do you know what is actually wrong with it?  if it is Apex seal failure - you may struggle with it.

Let me know.
Thanks,