Author Topic: Charge cooler vs intercooler pros & cons?  (Read 6387 times)

Offline scooby_si

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Charge cooler vs intercooler pros & cons?
« on: December 15, 2004, 02:50:39 PM »
So out of interest can someone tell me the actual, theoretical or potential pros & cons of a charge cooler over an aftermarket intercooler?
Cheers
Si

Offline sadgoth

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Charge cooler vs intercooler pros & cons?
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2004, 03:16:16 PM »
my understanding, and I am by no means an expert..... is:

with a charge cooler you should get less lag as the unit can be placed nearer the engine/turbo and avoid long pipework from the front of the vehicle to the turbo. The charge cooler can then have it\'s own radiator placed in a cooler part of the bay.

I suspect the downside oof a charge cooler is you need a reasnoable sized unit to be effective and that equates to £££
Mark
89 Black FC3S Turbo II
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Offline scooby_si

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Charge cooler vs intercooler pros & cons?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2004, 03:26:16 PM »
hey none of it\'s cheap thou & i do lurve the idea of the V mount, just wondering wot other benefits or downside the charge thingy may have. First things first it dont work from air flow does it? That being case is it better for short hard blasts &/or sideways action when airflow maybe limited or strange but does it get hotter after longer abuse?
Dunno at all so not saying that\'s case as i generally (now get ready for a shock folks) know jack sheet was just sum strange thoughts going on in my head so wood appreciate some knowledge being added to it?
Cheers
Si

Offline BlitzBoy

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Charge cooler vs intercooler pros & cons?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2004, 03:53:55 PM »
Geoff used a charge cooler on his 10sec drag car, so Ideal if u waiting in line on the strip.
"Piston Killa" 3rd Gen\'94 \'Oldone Racing Full Bridge Ported REW 13b engine with SCR seals\'. HKS T51 KAI turbo BBM mapped Motec ECU

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http://pistonkilla.blogspot.com/
old spec HB T51 470 @ wheels @ 1.2 BAR, 555 @ fly 10.46 @ 130 @ 1.25 Bar
new spec FB T51 482 @ wheels @ 1.15 BAR, 570 @ fly

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rx7veilside

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Charge cooler vs intercooler pros & cons?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2004, 04:26:48 PM »
charge cooler still works on the principle of cool air running thru a rad and then being used to cool the intake temp..for road use chrge cooler is not neccly better as u could be happily blasting the nuts off ur car and if the charge cooler water pump fails and u dont notice then intake temps will rocket whereas the front mount gets free air all the time..charge cooling works for some because they are just used for the 1/4 mile etc but most cars stick with front mounts for cooling..if u have front mount u can then add water injection as safety net to cool intake..thats my plan

Offline scooby_si

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Charge cooler vs intercooler pros & cons?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2004, 04:36:48 PM »
so if water pump fails temps go up, we have the first disadvantage, anymore comments on this & anything else.
Is there a stupid how it works for idiots guide sumwhere also?
Si

Offline BlitzBoy

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Charge cooler vs intercooler pros & cons?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2004, 04:41:16 PM »
ChargeCoolers are used in Rally cars a lot as well in hotter climates as the outside air for normal intercooler wont be as cold, there are pros and cons to both systems. I like the idea of the chargecooler as there is less pressure drop with one (due to less piping) hence less lag, but the main advantage of a normal intercooler is it failsafe attribute. Hmmm decisions decisions
"Piston Killa" 3rd Gen\'94 \'Oldone Racing Full Bridge Ported REW 13b engine with SCR seals\'. HKS T51 KAI turbo BBM mapped Motec ECU

JDS/HKS Street Class Championship Runner up 2011
Rotorstock winner 08,09
http://pistonkilla.blogspot.com/
old spec HB T51 470 @ wheels @ 1.2 BAR, 555 @ fly 10.46 @ 130 @ 1.25 Bar
new spec FB T51 482 @ wheels @ 1.15 BAR, 570 @ fly

New Project
"el fénix" RX2 by Mark & Mark

Offline sadgoth

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Charge cooler vs intercooler pros & cons?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2004, 04:55:44 PM »
The charge cooler works one the principal that water is far more effective at removing heat than air, while this is indeed true, it also retains heat better than air, which is why the charge cooler needs its own radiator, pump etc and why intake temps go through the roof if you have a water pump failure.

Mark\'s theory: If you had a charge cooler of a reasonable depth, a big charge cooler rad and some very serious cooling fans, CO2 sprays etc then you could run a very nice setup for low intake temps! Which would result in loads of boost without the associated lag of an FMIC, but in reality is it really likely to make that much difference and where would you put all the extra ancillaries (I reckon a sealed unit in the boot space but that\'s me!)
Mark
89 Black FC3S Turbo II
1/2 Bridge port   Microtech LT10s   TII Conv Aluminium Bonnet & Leather seats   Koni Shocks Pi Springs   De-catted 3" exhaust  
GT4088 turbo   Walbro fuel pump   1000cc injectors   custom V-Mount   Blitz Boost Controller (ok so the boost controller is still to fit)

Loud? Hell yes! :D

John Yorke

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Charge cooler vs intercooler pros & cons?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2004, 05:59:07 PM »
Having run a FMIC for a year I found I  was getting high water temps [fmic sitting in front of rad, hot days = high water temps, the run back from Le Mans I was having to back off seeing temps of 110c] Decided to go charge cooler last August, to date I have found consistanly lower water temps [85-95] but charge temps are now 5 - 10c higher.
My conclusion is FMIC are great but they restrict the cooling of the rad [not good for the engine] unless you look at V mount and vented bonnet [loads of dosh]
I think the charge cooler is a better option, a lot less work and plumbing, the water pump is reliable and I would have thought you would have as much chance putting a hole in a FM as the pump failing.
To address the higher charge temps I will be fitting water injection.
Hope this helps:D

Offline scooby_si

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Charge cooler vs intercooler pros & cons?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2004, 07:23:15 PM »
when you say higher what kinda figures we looking at as it\'s probably the weakness in my system to a degree so dont doubt that either any & all wood improve it dramatically but all good & interesting stuff so keep hitting me with figures.......
Cheers
Si

rx7veilside

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Charge cooler vs intercooler pros & cons?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2004, 08:16:29 PM »
rad cooling can be alleviated by running no thermostat/water wetter or purple ice.chargecooler still requires a rad to be placed infront of ur rad otherwise there is nothing to cool the water.it is a trade off even v mounts are a trade off.nearly all other conventional tuners run with front mounts.every impreza searching for power goes front mount as intercooler sitting in engine bay is a nighmare for heat soak.there is no one sysytem that will give everything..water temps should only be an issue for a track car as majority of road cars wont be running sustained boost for any length of time

Offline sdminus

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Charge cooler vs intercooler pros & cons?
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2004, 09:12:41 PM »
Removing the stat wont help you mate. It will make the engine run hotter and take longer to warm up. Also it will make the temp harder to sustain on colder days/nights.
If you remove the air con rad you could put a charge colling rad in its place. Not really changing the orginal design much at all.
why not go for a stock mount intercooler. researched this in great depth and you only need to duct between 1/6 to 1/4 of the intercooler surface area.
do some more research bud.
:)
scott

rx7veilside

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Charge cooler vs intercooler pros & cons?
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2004, 06:40:49 AM »
removing stat will drop temp as flow will be increased thru the rad even after reaching operating temp the flow is slowed thru the stat simply because of obstruction removal..stats are put in cars so the occupant gets benefit of heater earlier as flow is thru the engine picking up heat when temp is reached stat releases water to get cooled thru the rad to maintain this temp..removal will still lead to an even temp but cooler it wont however stop car overheating if there is a prob

John Yorke

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Charge cooler vs intercooler pros & cons?
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2004, 07:12:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by scooby_si
when you say higher what kinda figures we looking at as it\'s probably the weakness in my system to a degree so dont doubt that either any & all wood improve it dramatically but all good & interesting stuff so keep hitting me with figures.......
Cheers
Si
Sustained boost I see 40 - 45c normal driving 30-35c drive like a grannie 25-30c with the FM it ranged from 20 - 35.
The engine was designed with a thermostat and I am sure Mazda\'s engineers spent quite a bit R&D see what was best. I would not run my engine without it\'s stat.
The surface area on my charge cooler rad is 75% smaller than the FM I had fitted so, I saw a great improvement in water temps.........more or less the same as stock.
The other advantage with the charge cooler is you can keep the rad in its stock position thereby alieviating most of the air locks you get when positioning the rad near to upright.
I am hoping when I have my water injection plumbed in my intake temps will be atmospere + 5c or better.
For track time / drags with a charge cooler you can also fit a secondary tank and load this with ice to pass the cooling water through, I am told this is very effective though I have not tried it.

Offline BlitzBoy

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Charge cooler vs intercooler pros & cons?
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2004, 08:26:53 AM »
Hey John any pictures of your Charge Cooler set up, it would be most interesting to see? Probably would make my decisions easier whether to go FMIC or charge cooler
"Piston Killa" 3rd Gen\'94 \'Oldone Racing Full Bridge Ported REW 13b engine with SCR seals\'. HKS T51 KAI turbo BBM mapped Motec ECU

JDS/HKS Street Class Championship Runner up 2011
Rotorstock winner 08,09
http://pistonkilla.blogspot.com/
old spec HB T51 470 @ wheels @ 1.2 BAR, 555 @ fly 10.46 @ 130 @ 1.25 Bar
new spec FB T51 482 @ wheels @ 1.15 BAR, 570 @ fly

New Project
"el fénix" RX2 by Mark & Mark