Poll

In or Out of the EU?

IN
4 (30.8%)
OUT
9 (69.2%)
UNDECIDED
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 13

Voting closed: June 23, 2016, 12:54:20 PM

Author Topic: Come on then, in or out of Europe  (Read 4896 times)

Offline jynkkis

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Re: Come on then, in or out of Europe
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2016, 05:45:26 PM »
 A few years ago on politic debate on tv, journalist asked what is good on eu. One finnish politician told that we dont need a passport to travel in eu anymore. We only need licenced ID card. ( a passport, drivers licence isnt ID card). So whats the point? Is this the benefit we have when we pay hundreds of millions a year? Finland havent got money from eu since -98. ( if i remember correct).
Im fine with 5% sallary lost but there are thoulsads of finnishpeople who are starving on souplines. What we do? We raise our healtcare excess share with 30% to have 65 million saving. At the same time we shoot half a billion development assistance to china. That money didnt go to a poor states of china, no, it went to high economy citys.
China isnt even in eu. Dont get me startet with creese, we all know that story, and old russian countrys are the same. They all bluff us on their state of economy, just like turkey.
Only good economy country who have join eu, is estonia. When estonian labor comes to finland to work, he wont pay taxes to finland, but if his wife give birth, finland will pay her same money that finnish women would have plus a socialcare, even if she doesent live in finland. So all in all, we lose a huge pile of money every year out from finland and taxe revenue isnt rising. In 8 years our administration costs have increase 163%, but thats fine acording to out politicians.

I cant pointout more wrongs at this state of mind... but believe me, there may bi some more.

I woted out

Offline jinx

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Re: Come on then, in or out of Europe
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2016, 12:19:34 AM »
If something does not work you have two options - fix it or throw it away.

Anyone who says we will come up with the short end of the stick by leaving are simply wrong according to Brexit campaigners.  They don’t have any real answers - just confidence that they are right.   Countries like Switzerland pay for associate membership of the EU - exactly the sort of arrangement Brexiteers keep telling us will be ours for free. We buy so many BMW’s the EU will apparently be falling over themselves to give away the access every other non-member pays for, having to comply with the contentious EU rules on free movement etc that (apparently) won’t apply to us because we are…special.

The arrogance of this assumption is so overwhelming only the delusional political class could believe it.  For people further down the heap - the ones who probably aren’t buying a new BMW - it should probably be a warning - That wish list is built on our democratically elected representative’s understanding of the world THEY live in…not the bit most of their voters scrape by in.

Brexit now reportedly sees itself as a government in waiting.  Did you elect them?  No you didn’t but under the rules of the Westminster game, (which is what the big guns are really playing) that hardly matters.  Tory politicians salivating at the prospect of personal advancement following a Brexit vote is pretty unedifying and the deafening silence from Her Majesty’s opposition, until the eleventh hour, smacks of an eight stone weakling watching two bullies slugging it out, pleased it is not them getting hammered for once.  Not exactly an attractive alternative in any direction is there.

The prospect of a government composed of arrogant wishful thinkers, happy to perpetuate any convenient lie that shores up their opinion and masks their thin grasp of how people on less than £100K will be affected, is just as worrying as the prospect of a stampede of outbound investment (US, Chinese etc) once we resign from Europe - to teach THEM a lesson. 

If Europe is not working, I am left to wonder why we are not telling those that represent us to fix it rather than throw it away and hope we don’t need it. Does that usually work well with a rotary?  By the way - My day rate has not gone up appreciably for ten years either and I am not competing with Polish immigrants…Who (apart from myself LOL)  should I blame for that? Europe…obviously.

I think our national IQ has dropped several points in the last few weeks while we have been treated to a banquet of jingoistic nonsense, half truths and lies - the only option being an initially smug, watery soup of continuity garnished with hand wringing concern for those all-important (at election time) ‘little people.” 

I despair at how easy it apparently is to lead the British electorate by the nose if you smile raffishly for the camera, tell a few jokes and shout loud or long enough - even if you don’t actually say anything based on fact or that makes any real sense.

Well you did ask....

Offline re japi

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Re: Come on then, in or out of Europe
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2016, 05:16:30 AM »
Lately I have been reading lots of stuff about London´s new mayor... Seems like he is, umm, interesting person ;)

Just read about that MP who was shot and stabbed to death. Sorry to say that those kind of things shows how fed up people are...
Media is claiming that he shouted "britania first". Alternative media says that eye witness did not hear him shout that. Propaganda or not...

When we got to EU, every one told us that stuff would be cheaper. Like new cars and so on. What a big pile if bulls**t...

Well, ideally EU kind state system could work. But only if every country has possibility to speak for it self. Now, few person is telling what to do. This EU is so far gone wrong allready that it can not be fixed...

My brother basically summed up our situation here. And those same things you have there too...

You know every one allways says that UK is expensive country. Actually not compared to our prices. Well, smokes are frickin expensive there ;)
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Offline Smiffers

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Re: Come on then, in or out of Europe
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2016, 09:42:48 AM »
Could not agree more with this, Turkeys voting for Christmas!

If something does not work you have two options - fix it or throw it away.

Anyone who says we will come up with the short end of the stick by leaving are simply wrong according to Brexit campaigners.  They don’t have any real answers - just confidence that they are right.   Countries like Switzerland pay for associate membership of the EU - exactly the sort of arrangement Brexiteers keep telling us will be ours for free. We buy so many BMW’s the EU will apparently be falling over themselves to give away the access every other non-member pays for, having to comply with the contentious EU rules on free movement etc that (apparently) won’t apply to us because we are…special.

The arrogance of this assumption is so overwhelming only the delusional political class could believe it.  For people further down the heap - the ones who probably aren’t buying a new BMW - it should probably be a warning - That wish list is built on our democratically elected representative’s understanding of the world THEY live in…not the bit most of their voters scrape by in.

Brexit now reportedly sees itself as a government in waiting.  Did you elect them?  No you didn’t but under the rules of the Westminster game, (which is what the big guns are really playing) that hardly matters.  Tory politicians salivating at the prospect of personal advancement following a Brexit vote is pretty unedifying and the deafening silence from Her Majesty’s opposition, until the eleventh hour, smacks of an eight stone weakling watching two bullies slugging it out, pleased it is not them getting hammered for once.  Not exactly an attractive alternative in any direction is there.

The prospect of a government composed of arrogant wishful thinkers, happy to perpetuate any convenient lie that shores up their opinion and masks their thin grasp of how people on less than £100K will be affected, is just as worrying as the prospect of a stampede of outbound investment (US, Chinese etc) once we resign from Europe - to teach THEM a lesson. 

If Europe is not working, I am left to wonder why we are not telling those that represent us to fix it rather than throw it away and hope we don’t need it. Does that usually work well with a rotary?  By the way - My day rate has not gone up appreciably for ten years either and I am not competing with Polish immigrants…Who (apart from myself LOL)  should I blame for that? Europe…obviously.

I think our national IQ has dropped several points in the last few weeks while we have been treated to a banquet of jingoistic nonsense, half truths and lies - the only option being an initially smug, watery soup of continuity garnished with hand wringing concern for those all-important (at election time) ‘little people.” 

I despair at how easy it apparently is to lead the British electorate by the nose if you smile raffishly for the camera, tell a few jokes and shout loud or long enough - even if you don’t actually say anything based on fact or that makes any real sense.

Well you did ask....
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Offline boosted

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Re: Come on then, in or out of Europe
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2016, 11:39:42 AM »
There are a few facts and the rest is bluster from both sides of campaign...

1. We pay in 19bn and economists tell us we can identitfy 8bn that comes back, from grants to scientists, grants for the enviroment, grants for the siemens windfarm etc...so there is an 11bn deficit.....
cant our politicians continue those grants and carry on funding projects here in the uk? i think ss.
2. Tariff free trade, they sell us more than the we sell them, someone with balls needs todo serious negiotations. The remain camp scare us that no ones going to buy are products....i think Brussels should be more concerned that without a decent deal no Brit will by buying Bemmers and prob if prices rise due to Imposed tarifs we might actually buy a car from a British car plant? A buy British Campaign shortly after leaving would be a great idea.
3. Free movement of people will cease. This is a massive headache but if your in work as european migrant then use the Oz system with working visa and the right to citizenship after a qualifying period. No more flooding of unskilled labour doing the cheapest job cheaper.

It seems to me where paying Brussel 11bn for our policticians to outsource there actual work.

It seems to me that the Eu project is to make everybody equal and balance the wealth....but its not working un accounted Billions getting lost in the corridors of Brussels.

all animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others...George Orwell.

I dont think it cant be fixed its way past that far too many snouts in the trough and too big and beaucratic.

I really hope we leave i planned for it, i fixed my mortgage for 10 years ;D 

If we dont get out and France that is calling for its own Referendum and DO leave we are royally shafted, we are flogging a dieing greedy fat horse.
1 other point
Who has his eye on Junckers job.....Blair ffs! Im off to Oz if that $%^£ gets to be Eu president.
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Offline exiled-viking

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Re: Come on then, in or out of Europe
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2016, 09:01:04 PM »
I am glad to switch from British/Canadian to Canadian/British the option for me in both counts would be to LEAVE> ;) and yes I retired at 54 yes I do Not pay tax on savings, 2 pensions, and I have paid my dues with service in the MOD/CDE (Porton.Down)  39 years of tax credits for my old age pension and if its available when i get to claim it claim it I will... So the country is f*** and it can only get worse while we have spineless politicians at the moment they have the majority of the work done for them by the EU thats why they want us to stay IN if we come out they will have to get off there lard arses and do some proper work for there 70k year.  sorry Rant over.... I think I am for OUT

 But the above is not the REASON I could not post that up on here LOL.....

Offline clive

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Re: Come on then, in or out of Europe
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2016, 11:10:19 PM »
Maybe somebody here can confirm or deny this one.

Until the sad murder took place yesterday all I kept hearing from the public on the news was "immigration".

So am I correct in saying that I am sure I remember that in one of the last EU sittings by Cameron, he got an agreement for the restriction of immigration which is something no other EU country has in place.

If this is factually correct this should have been put over much more strongly to the general public.

With that said though, what was starting to come out though was that we had more Non EU immigrants than EU ones, so would coming out actually make any difference, because even out  work permits would still be allocated to people from the EU as well, all this would surely mean immigration would probably remain very much the same , yes ?. 

I also read and am told that whist Norway is not in the EU many decisions are made that still have the same influence on their country anyway  !

The above is not meant to sound like apathy, but to me all of this is all probably 30 years to late, because back then there just may have been a chance to stem all these at times bizarre decisions that have come out of Europe, in or out the horse has long bolted and so in or out, the gee gee  has galloped a long way away.

         
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 11:17:30 PM by clive »
All the best Clive

Offline jinx

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Re: Come on then, in or out of Europe
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2016, 10:30:36 AM »
I must stop rising to this bait. My last word on bolted horses…   :D
Change does not stop. The EU has, can and will go on evolving, with or without us.  Beneficial change would take a generation of UK politicians who can look further into the future than the next 140 characters to get engaged. This makes the real problem the quality of domestic governments. Despite the predictable lip service and the undoubted good intentions of many elected members, we seem to return leaders who don’t believe in much beyond the spreadsheet’s bottom line and being, or staying, in charge. That is possibly why they get so passionate about their ideas or intentions being thwarted - be it by Europe…or our very own House of Lords.

Incidentally, for all the allegations about Remain's reliance on fear tactics - it is Brexit who has been telling people the country is being submerged in a sea of immigrant labour.  For the most part (Unless you live in Lincolnshire?) immigration is a convenient hot button to press to promote a public panic.  Is it right to pay EU workers lower rates and use this to keep wages down across the board? Of course not but can we not blame 'them' for doing it to 'us'. It is UK business writing those cheques, cutting its costs to preserve profits, dividends and directorial benefits - with UK government providing the latitude for them to do it.  The logical extension of this ‘shareholder value’ mindset is Valeant Pharmaceuticals, a peculiarly ugly result but in a world enslaved by stock prices and spreadsheet soothsayers...?   

In other news…When we leave the EU we will be just another foreign country...customs clearance, forms and paperwork, import duty, passport control etc etc.  If we want free trade without the political element, realistically we will currently have to pay the same price for it all the other associates do - that means free movement of people…which, if Brexit can be believed, is not on the table.  Yes, they do sell us more than we sell them but reportedly, we sell Ireland more than we sell to the rest of the Commonwealth combined, making buoyant predictions about future trade beyond Europe seem a mite rose-tinted.  It is hard to believe Ireland and all those Mediterranean economies in the grip of massive austerity (never mind the French, Germans etc) would see why they should cut Boris a better deal than anybody else gets, while the UK insists on only playing the game its own way, ignoring the rules that do not suit.  Like the SNP's independence campaign before it, Brexit thinks it can cherry pick the bits that are convenient and leave the rest on the side of the plate. In what sphere of your life does that work? (Apart from with cherries) Politicians are encouraging us to embrace the concept of 'rights' but not 'responsibilities' but perhaps, if your horizon is only 140 characters distant, that probably makes perfect sense and undoubtedly flatters your personal objectives. 

Offline re japi

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Re: Come on then, in or out of Europe
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2016, 12:56:30 PM »
Hmm, just read from local newspaper that britania is sixth biggest export country to us. With only 5,2% total from all of our export. Dunno if thats true, seems abit small figute to me...

Anyhow, if you leave EU, and we lose that 5,2%, I cant see big problem there. Dont see how would that affect our economy...

However, I was told that mostly UK has same agendas and ideas about laws, that our coverment has. So then we would lose big supporter. Then again, our politics are morons so wont see any bad thing in that either :)

Baddest thing for us would basically be that we would have to pay more for EU if UK leaves...

I dont know whats going to happen, I'm quessing that you are "forced" to stay in...

And that actually makes me sad, I really wish that EU will fall. Just because of our situation here, not yours :) Cheap labor force and those really stupid laws are really affecting our economy...

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Offline exiled-viking

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Re: Come on then, in or out of Europe
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2016, 08:02:03 PM »
If we leave see how many other countries will follow we could effectively start the bust up of the EU 8)

Offline re japi

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Re: Come on then, in or out of Europe
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2016, 07:22:35 AM »
Had a little chat with my boss yesterday. He had quite a good point; just think how leaving or staying EU would affect YOUR work. Dont think anything else, not politics, immigration, taxes, just YOUR work...

For example Clive, think about your business...? And Jon, how about you...? Btw, I have now idea what you do? :) Tony, Jonathan?
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Offline chrisj

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Re: Come on then, in or out of Europe
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2016, 08:00:31 AM »
An interesting read from the telegraph


The EU Empire is going to fail. On Thursday, we can protect Britain from the chaos of its death throes - The Telegraph
https://apple.news/AHxpZBGdESYqhKVZ9t1omYA



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Offline clive

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Re: Come on then, in or out of Europe
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2016, 09:12:08 AM »
For example Clive, think about your business...?

As I indicated above this vote is so different from just voting our own government in or out .

From my point of view as regards business, i am scared stiff we will come out / Reason /

Racingbeat, Good-win-Racing & Racingbrake all send their European enquires for us to deal with because they know we can give any EU country a delivered price,

If we come out and the boarders go up I am sure it will hurt us because our EU customers will not know a delivered price as the parts will get stopped and customs duty etc will be applied from their respective country.   

Lisa asked me what my personal view is /

"If" it is correct that Norway is still heavily influenced and affected even though they are not in the EU then this is my view/

If we are not in the room to argue our point of view and standing out side then we have no say in anything anymore! 



You know, I have never had a political bone in my body------till now, but like I said this is different, OK if we leave it may take ten years to collapse and get every thing back in place but many many company's who sell to the EU may be abandoned by its customers and be hurt badly, I just hope we survive.

As I have said to many, I believe the general public is not interested in business, free markets etc and I still believe the general population will vote us out, regardless of how I think.

Now then, where's that horse that ran away all those years ago  ;) 


« Last Edit: June 19, 2016, 09:25:48 AM by clive »
All the best Clive

Offline re japi

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Re: Come on then, in or out of Europe
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2016, 10:00:52 AM »
Yes, yesterday I thought that too from your point of view. And I agree with your comments above. And I can see your fear in that. And yes, it would hurt customers alot...

But yes, I think that general public will vote with their hearts, not with their minds. However, I do not think that effects would be as big as you said. UK still would be big market for EU and Europe, import and export. No country affords to lose UKs influence on markets.

Besides, if US and EU is threatening UK with somekind of trade embargo, that is just bullshit. Think about this, Russia has some kind of embargo at the moment. Still KFCs is opening 300 stores to there! :D

Btw, I dont understand Norways influens in EU mathers either :)

From my point of view:
-I have been working in local hardware store for a five years. Things dont effect much to me at this point. But EU has allready made an effect on shops, business and retail stores allready. Open times, wages and so on. However, from my bosses view cheaper labor is good for business, for example cleaning staff.

-I used to be construction worked. There influence of cheap work force was catastrophical. Laborers from estonia, poland russia and so on. Basically cost was massive amounts of unemployed finnish workers.

-But if I want to move to UK and work there(and believe me Im really considering that), then EU is actually is good thing. Moving, taxes and so on...

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Offline boosted

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Re: Come on then, in or out of Europe
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2016, 03:13:34 PM »
Like i said at the beginning you need to look at your personal situation and get the info to make your own personal decisions how effects you and your family.
My company buys its raw product from asia in dollars and sells to uk supermarkets so apart from the pound versus dollar europe does not effect my work.
Things is eu is not just about work though its as far ranging as potholes in the road because local gov have no money, 3 weeks to get a doctors appointment to dead refugees washing up on beaches. We normal people have not created this mess.
Would you vote into eu in its current situation.
I fully understand Clives situation its the same as my neighbours US company.
I work in a factory where im pretty much now a minority so would be easier to replace me with a foriegn cheaper engineer ?

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